# The 'Pay To Win' Myth **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [September 8, 2023, 2:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369 "2023-09-08T14:03:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Vokan\_Narkar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vokan_narkar/32/326293_2.png) [@Vokan\_Narkar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vokan_Narkar)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 2:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/202 "2023-09-11T14:28:37Z")
I absolutely agree with what you wrote except the demise. If you look at the “EVE is pay2win opinion camp” here at forums it is me, Karak, Destiny and maybe DeMichael Crimson? There is nobody else who would even oppose you and neither of us fits your premise about lazy players seeking instant gratification. We simply want things to be named their right names, is all. I really don’t care about EVE being pay2win, I am addicted to the non-consensual and unfair pvp this games offer and no amount of pay2win CCP adds will make me stop playing it. I can care less that someone bought a 5% dmg booster for cash, it is pay2win mechanic, but so what? I can always overwhelm him with numbers and beat him anyway. And even if I couldn’t I don’t care I just find weaker victim and satisfy my bloodthirst on that. The way I see it, it is exactly the opposite. Weak, lazy players who seeks instant gratification has no problem with pay2win (until you tell them that them spending 42€ on Master Bundle is pay2win, then they get mad af 🤣 ). It is hardcore players who has because their efforts and dedication becomes meaningless when it can be bought by the cash. The comedy video above sums it pretty nicely. Altara’s replies and arguments also. BTW you are saying that EVE has a bad name and is slandered for pay2win. I don’t really see that. All these TOP MMOs of year articles are very neutral and doesn’t mention any of the EVE’s issues. I don’t read reddit so can’t talk about that. And nobody reads forum before trying EVE (and neither of us four is starting a threads about EVE being pay2win and slandering EVE either), and steam reviews are overall positive and in between negative reviews I didn’t find single mention of pay2win. Few players complained about paywall to access better ships, but that is not the same thing. So I really don’t know where you are coming from with this. This thread actually shows that vast majority of the player base has no issues with EVE and doesn’t even consider it pay2win because. I don’t think that new players’ opinion on EVE is going to be that different. As was already mentioned above, apparently every other MMO on market has similar pay2win mechanics to the point it became a norm and peoples no longer even sees that as pay2win. ---
**Author:** ![Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ax_l_thorne/32/412835_2.png) [@Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ax_l_Thorne)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 2:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/203 "2023-09-11T14:49:36Z")
> [@Vokan\_Narkar](#): > > If you look at the “EVE is pay2win opinion camp” here at forums it is me, Karak, Destiny and maybe DeMichael Crimson? There is nobody else who would even oppose you and neither of us fits your premise about lazy players seeking instant gratification. I wasn’t pointing out anyone in a specific manner. It was a general statement based on my observation of a major shift in culture over the last 20 years. There are still plenty of hard working people. P2W is lazy. I agree. I don’t see EvE as a strict P2W game. I don’t agree with purchasing skill points, but as Aiko pointed out, it’s not Raw SP, they are farmed from other characters and sold in game with in game currency so it doesn’t fall under the purview of the definition that my blocked buddy quoted off of wikipedia. Anyone with ISK can buy it. And even then skill points are moot. As Aiko also said, just because someone has the skill points to fly a titan, doesn’t mean they have the skills to actually fly it. > [@Vokan\_Narkar](#): > > BTW you are saying that EVE has a bad name and is slandered for pay2win. I didn’t say that. I said it gets a bad wrap, and so what if they think it’s P2W? Just like you, I’m interested is applying the correct definition, and I don’t see the current definition of P2W applying to this game. > [@Vokan\_Narkar](#): > > The way I see it, it is exactly the opposite. Weak, lazy players who seeks instant gratification has no problem with pay2win That’s what I said. It’s the same crowd of entitled folks that cry for equality, and when they are given that opportunity they cry that its P2W. ---
**Author:** ![Karak\_Terrel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/karak_terrel/32/373453_2.png) [@Karak\_Terrel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Karak_Terrel)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 2:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/204 "2023-09-11T14:51:49Z")
> [@Vokan\_Narkar](#): > > We simply want things to be named their right names, is all. I really don’t care about EVE being pay2win, I am addicted to the non-consensual and unfair pvp this games offer and no amount of pay2win CCP adds will make me stop playing it. I can care less that someone bought a 5% dmg booster for cash, it is pay2win mechanic, but so what? I can always overwhelm him with numbers and beat him anyway. And even if I couldn’t I don’t care I just find weaker victim and satisfy my bloodthirst on that. That is absolutely true However, if hypothetically we had a choice between playing and EVE that has no PLEX, no cash shop, not alphas, just a monthly subscription model, and the one with all of that, I would chose to play the former. I’m aware that this would probably make the developer of the game less money, since they implement that crap for a reason, because it works. It’s just wishful thinking. But the fact that this will never ever happen should not be a reason to deny reality of what all of this actually is. ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 2:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/205 "2023-09-11T14:55:22Z")
> [@Vokan\_Narkar](#): > > The comedy video above sums it pretty nicely. Altara’s replies and arguments also. My position is that I don’t really _care_ about ‘pay to win’ even if there is such a thing in the game. I see it all as just the whiniest end of a spectrum of whining. I mean, someone who brings in $100 to the game could righteously wail about someone else who can afford to bring in $1000. So frikin what ? Disadvantage and inequality are for me not things to wail about but are excellent **motivators**. Bring it on…I say. Eve is, and _ought_ to be, an unfair universe. Triumphing over the unfairness is the true Eve ‘win’. There is no sense of victory or winning in a world with mandated sameness universally applied. ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 3:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/206 "2023-09-11T15:00:13Z")
> [@Karak\_Terrel](#): > > This isn’t monopoly kid Sheesh…its an analogy. I mean, there you are whining about unfairness…and yet the universe noobs join is already rigged 20 years before they ever join. Its not like anyone joins a level playing field in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Epeen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mr_epeen/32/373308_2.png) [@Mr\_Epeen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mr_Epeen)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 3:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/207 "2023-09-11T15:01:18Z")
> [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > My position is that I don’t really _care_ about ‘pay to win’ even if there is such a thing in the game. Your posting suggests otherwise. Mr Epeen 🕶 ---
**Author:** ![Frank\_Diphosphan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/frank_diphosphan/32/389408_2.png) [@Frank\_Diphosphan](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Frank_Diphosphan)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 3:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/208 "2023-09-11T15:07:15Z")
Oh my god, what a discussion this is. Are you all taking a game too serious? I personally see it quite simple: as long as I have fun playing the game I will continue, if not, I will stop. I don’t care if other player have more ISK or have faster ISK as long as I have fun. You cant’ win Eve, you can only have your own little wins. Enjoy it, fly save 😀 ---
**Author:** ![Karak\_Terrel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/karak_terrel/32/373453_2.png) [@Karak\_Terrel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Karak_Terrel)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 3:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/209 "2023-09-11T15:19:12Z")
> [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > I mean, there you are whining about unfairness… It’s funny that you would say that, and then: > [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > and yet the universe noobs join is already rigged 20 years before they ever join. Its not like anyone joins a level playing field in the first place. Lol I never even talked about “fairness”, that was you from the start. This whole thread is a stream of tears from you about fairness and people investing more time in a game than others makes you sad 😢 I simply point out that EVE is full of pay2win mechanics as they are written in the book. If they actually have an impact on the game is a completely different story. I’m just really allergic to fanboys who come up with all sorts of delusional narratives and word games to pretend their special game is not pay to win, compared to all this other games who are (which do the very same things). And yes I think EVE would be a better game without those mechanics, but it has nothing to do with “fairness”, I happen to think, and I mentioned it a million times, that it simply dilutes the game experience. In case you don’t know what that means: If I see someone flying an awesome ship I would like to think that they had a journey to get it, that they grinded for it, maybe the are a genius at the market game or they stole it from someone. With the current state of the game it’s more like “probably stole moms credit card”. That’s kinda devaluing the game experience. It kills the immersion, it makes EVE less real. Do you even understand that? ---
**Author:** ![Rocket\_Hellfire](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/rocket_hellfire/32/396905_2.png) [@Rocket\_Hellfire](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Rocket_Hellfire)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 3:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/210 "2023-09-11T15:24:54Z")
There is a big difference. The mentality of both routes when applied to the game is completely different. I assure you Jack will have a much more rewarding experience at the end of the day. Also, congratulations. You realized that the game has been tailored to make life easier for people to use their credit card… _clap clap clap_ ---
**Author:** ![Aiko\_Danuja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aiko_danuja/32/481237_2.png) [@Aiko\_Danuja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aiko_Danuja)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 3:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/211 "2023-09-11T15:33:33Z")
> [@Drx\_Drx](#): > > But buyers resources dont come from ingame. A buyer can use real world inequalities to gain a leverage over other players Sure, but real-life isn’t pay to win, so why would that make EvE pay to win? Some of you are confusing “pay to win” with “market economy”. ---
**Author:** ![Drx\_Drx](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/drx_drx/32/383107_2.png) [@Drx\_Drx](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Drx_Drx)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 3:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/212 "2023-09-11T15:53:31Z")
> [@Aiko\_Danuja](#): > > real-life isn’t pay to win What private school did you go to? ---
**Author:** ![Erebus\_TheChin\_Sundance](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/erebus_thechin_sundance/32/375165_2.png) [@Erebus\_TheChin\_Sundance](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Erebus_TheChin_Sundance)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 3:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/213 "2023-09-11T15:54:34Z")
Firstly another question, If you walk into a sport shop wanting a nice new pair of trainers but come out with those trainers plus 8 pairs of socks, a tennis racket and some golf balls is that the shops fault? I am also what one might consider an older gamer being in my late stage 40’s now having successfully reached level 47. While I wholeheartedly agree gaming and the whole industry was very different way back then it still required money. You needed to pay for that that Horace goes skiing ZX spectrum cassette with cash, there was no free to play option. The whole discussion of free to play is questionable and just as daft as this p2w argument anyway as you require many things that are not cost free to get to the point that you can (a) play a computer game and (b) play that game online, silly basic things like electricity, a phone line and other boring stuff that requires money. To point out also, as well as getting more disposable income as you get older, you also learn a much better understanding of its intrinsic value, quite often you get both, more time and more money. I work a lot less hours nowadays than I did in my 20’s and earn much more. Time becomes more and more precious and money becomes something you have, if you work hard and do well or get lucky whatever, money becomes more of a handy tool than a fight for survival. What also seems to take many years is the stark realization that if you spend your money its gone and you then you have to make more, so you get more savvy in how/why/what that money goes towards, But, no mater what you do or how much money you have, you can not get time back. When I look at the packs available from CCP I don’t see a single pack that I want or would require to make EVE easier or better, just pure digital crap. Possibly due to the aforementioned agedness that has started to inflict itself upon me, things like digital cosmetics or plex have no value to me in or out of game so for me they are a waste of money full stop. I just have the 2 year sub cos its the cheapest (see savvy financial sense) because as mike inferred we have that long term disposable income. My single and only character is worth just over 3 trillion isk on jEveAssets from just doing HS industry and missions. What possible use do I have for a 20,000 plex pack despite £500 being very affordable? There is nothing in EVE having more isk can make me “win” at other than wallet flexing that has no in game advantage when your in space trying not to get killed. Oz is even doing a show where some players with very heavy wallets are so unable to do anything “win” with those huge piles of isk they are looking at ways to fund other people with it that have interesting in game ideas. That is how useless huge amounts of in game isk is. Now the more recent skill packs are different, they have a visible saving in time, as we have now established time is a very valuable commodity, and when given the choice of paying another player my in game isk for skill points they have extracted from an army of farm alts or purchasing directly from CCP, I am going to take the latter every time as the money goes direct to the people that make the game and not someone I have no idea who they are or what they do. Conscientiousness with your money also comes with age. It is also fair to offer both options. But again, I have 260ish million skill points now from almost 10 years playing and haven’t used a single injector, so no need for those. That is max remap and +5s ofc at a flat rate of 45 sp/m with a minimum annual pull of 23,328,000 skill points, That is not inclusive of any from logins, daily’s or accelerator boosts (it can go up to 60 sp/m with a +10). There is also no need to learn every skill in EVE. I’m currently sat on a 10 million unallocated pool to boot. If a new player wants to drop loads of money on injectors or packs because they feel the need to catch up who cares? Is that something we should care about? Is that them paying to win? I’m clearly **not** the target audience for said products so I completely ignore them. I have no issue with CCP for that as its up to the consumer purchasing them to decide. Certainly shouldn’t be up to me. While I totally agree the stuff you can buy with real money is targeted at people with disposable income, I would refute entirely that its us older gamers buying it. ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 3:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/214 "2023-09-11T15:56:31Z")
> [@Karak\_Terrel](#): > > I never even talked about “fairness”, Then what are you complaining about ? Your posts twist words this way and that depending on which way the wind is blowing. And no…my point as far back as the opening post has been that I simply don’t care, _precisely because_ people twist things so much to present a ‘pay to win’ narrative. ---
**Author:** ![Karak\_Terrel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/karak_terrel/32/373453_2.png) [@Karak\_Terrel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Karak_Terrel)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 3:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/215 "2023-09-11T15:58:55Z")
> [@Drx\_Drx](#): > > > [@Aiko\_Danuja](#): > > > > real-life isn’t pay to win > > What private school did you go to? Funny off-topic anecdote: in the country I come from, the schools you pay for are the ones for the “special” kids who would not cut it at the regular free school ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 4:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/216 "2023-09-11T16:01:38Z")
> [@Mike\_Azariah](#): > > for me it comes down to a basic question that faces a LOT of adult gamers. > “Which do you have more of, time or money” I made that point as far back as the opening post. We’ve now had 300 posts worth of it being _totally ignored_ by the ant-P2W fanatics who just rant on regardless. Thus its just become yet another of those weasel word ’ I didn’t say xyz’ threads and the mods may as well just close it. ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 4:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/217 "2023-09-11T16:10:08Z")
> [@Erebus\_TheChin\_Sundance](#): > > I am also what one might consider an older gamer being in my late stage 40’s now having successfully reached level 47. I started gaming ( actually creating games ) when I was 25…and that was not long after an asteroid wiped out the dinosaurs. Sheesh…40 is barely out of diapers. The gaming scene goes back way further than many suppose. My first networked game was early 90s. ---
**Author:** ![Karak\_Terrel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/karak_terrel/32/373453_2.png) [@Karak\_Terrel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Karak_Terrel)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 4:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/218 "2023-09-11T16:11:28Z")
> [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > Then what are you complaining about ? Man, I said it like a hundred times now. I’m complaining about people like you coming up with all sorts of delusional crap and excuses to fabricate a narrative just to pretend that your favored game is not called pay2win, when clearly it’s full of such mechanics. It’s not intellectually honest. It doesn’t fool anyone. The simple reality is that all the EVE guys look at other games, point at them and say “what a pile of pay2win garbage”, while the fans of that game are coming up with convoluted stories like your OP to justify why it is not. Meanwhile they point over at EVE and say “look what a pile of pay2win garbage, you can literally buy everything with money”. It’s the exact same thing in every single game And in reality they are all full of pay2win mechanics. Just admit it. You don’t have to stop playing EVE, it’s not like the world out there is any better, it’s basically the same everywhere now. But unless we are honest about our own game we like and let the developer know that is the f-enough already, they will simply not stop and add more and more and more of that crap until it’s more shop than game. ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 4:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/219 "2023-09-11T16:17:19Z")
> [@Karak\_Terrel](#): > > Man, I said it like a hundred times now. I’m complaining about people like you coming up with all sorts of delusional crap and excuses to fabricate a narrative just to pretend that your favored game is not called pay2win, when clearly it’s full of such mechanics. > > It’s not intellectually honest. It doesn’t fool anyone. And I quite rightly point out, as did Mike Azaria, that there is no level playing field in the first place. Not simply because some have more TIME to grind than others, but that noobs arrive in a universe that already has 20 years worth of ’ how dare anyone get ahead of me’ people all eager to maintain the status quo. People are _already_ 20 years ahead of any noob that joins Eve…and these very same people then have a fit if some noob dares spend £10 and ‘queue jump’ by a frikin month. Sheesh…what a fuss over nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Erebus\_TheChin\_Sundance](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/erebus_thechin_sundance/32/375165_2.png) [@Erebus\_TheChin\_Sundance](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Erebus_TheChin_Sundance)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 4:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/220 "2023-09-11T16:19:30Z")
> [@Ax\_l\_Thorne](#): > > It’s the same crowd of entitled folks that cry for equality, and when they are given that opportunity they cry that its P2W. I am not convinced equality is something we should strive for, in game or out, as not everyone is equal, some people are better at some things, others are better at other things. Equality corrodes diversity. What we should rather aim for is fairness. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Order\_Enforcer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/new_order_enforcer/32/387867_2.png) [@New\_Order\_Enforcer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/New_Order_Enforcer)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 4:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/221 "2023-09-11T16:41:54Z")
It depends on your definition for “pay to win”. Imagine a module or ship which can be only adquired with real money and it gives you an ability or bonus which can not be obtained by other means. For example a scrambler with 30km range. That would be clearly a pay to win option. But for the moment you can just grind your way and get the same than a guy who buys injectors, isk, plex… [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369.md?page=10) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369.md?page=12)