# The 'Pay To Win' Myth **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [September 8, 2023, 2:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369 "2023-09-08T14:03:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Io\_Koval](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/io_koval/32/282426_2.png) [@Io\_Koval](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Io_Koval)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2023, 11:06am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/303 "2023-09-21T11:06:59Z")
> [@Karak\_Terrel](#): > > It’s a typical pay2win time gate you find in basically all trash mobile games. Eve Online and Pardus are MMOs whose time gating mechanics existed before it became the favored choice for „substitute gameplay“ of the Casinos masquerading as video games. At the time of their launches, the mechanics were viewed as gameplay constraints to make personal choices impactful (like in Pardus doing a FWE run vs skilling up with your 5,000 AP). No different than „you don’t have infinite money“ being a limitation. Just like „not having infinite ISK“ is a gameplay constraint to make your personal choices impactful. So many Eve gamers think of „ISK/hr“ it’s impossible _not_ to think of ISK limitations as time gating. If you’re bothered by the „time gating“ of skill points I don’t see why you’re not-bothered by having limited ISK and being „time-gated“ because you’re not infinitely wealthy. To equate them with trash phone game mechanics is just silly though: people are capable of nuance that you’re erasing for hyperbolic effect. ---
**Author:** ![Sienna\_Massilia](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sienna_massilia/32/390388_2.png) [@Sienna\_Massilia](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sienna_Massilia)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2023, 1:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/304 "2023-09-21T13:00:29Z")
> [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > I see people who have bought entire characters…which is a far bigger matter than just the odd skill injector But by some argumentative majik that’s not P2Win… They see the mice scurrying to the kitchen but can’t see the mammoth in the living room. ---
**Author:** ![Mephiztopheleze](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mephiztopheleze/32/381036_2.png) [@Mephiztopheleze](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mephiztopheleze)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2023, 1:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/305 "2023-09-21T13:23:18Z")
> [@Erebus\_TheChin\_Sundance](#): > > …no more skill loss from clone upgrades… I, for one, do not miss that abominable mechanic. ---
**Author:** ![Karak\_Terrel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/karak_terrel/32/373453_2.png) [@Karak\_Terrel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Karak_Terrel)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2023, 4:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/306 "2023-09-21T16:58:34Z")
> [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > I see people who have bought entire characters…which is a far bigger matter than just the odd skill injector. Yes, which is also a pay2win mechanic. You can’t explain away pay2win mechanics by pointing to other pay2win mechanics the game also has and then conclude that makes it less pay2win. That’s just silly. > [@Io\_Koval](#): > > At the time of their launches, the mechanics were viewed as gameplay constraints to make personal choices impactful (like in Pardus doing a FWE run vs skilling up with your 5,000 AP). Yes, but at that point it was not possible to circumvent that trickle with real world money. Now it is possible and they added several ways to do so. NOW it is pay2win, and NOW it resembles a regular time gate mechanic of a mobile game. It doesn’t matter what it used to be, CCP completely changed that and distorted that to turn whatever intention the mechanic used to have into a money printer for them. It’s just sad to see how you make excuses for that. Do you like how they turned that unique skill training without grind into one you can either accelerate by insane grind or pay to skip ahead? Why are you defending this blatant pay2win mechanic by making this excuses? ---
**Author:** ![Io\_Koval](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/io_koval/32/282426_2.png) [@Io\_Koval](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Io_Koval)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2023, 5:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/307 "2023-09-21T17:18:31Z")
> [@Karak\_Terrel](#): > > Now it is possible and they added several ways to do so It used to be possible, too. You could always buy characters. As far as I remember. > [@Karak\_Terrel](#): > > Do you like how they turned that unique skill training without grind into one you can either accelerate by insane grind or pay to skip ahead? No. But that ship has sailed. Summer of Rage and all that. I was there. > [@Karak\_Terrel](#): > > Why are you defending this blatant pay2win mechanic by making this excuses? I’m not making excuses and not defending the mechanic because I believe it’s not „pay to win“ in the common use of the word, and trying to label the game is a futile exercise. So what if you successfully label the game „pay to win“? Who cares. People play within the resource constraints they have. Real world time. In game ISK. Real world money. It’s always been this way, and people find tastes they like or get psychologically manipulated into paying for (Hypernet). The whole debate is stupid and is reminiscent of lawyers trying to define what the meaning of the word „is“ is where the stakes are… recreational fun. It’s a dumb debate. Perfectly represents dumb mainstream gaming culture. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Epeen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mr_epeen/32/373308_2.png) [@Mr\_Epeen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mr_Epeen)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2023, 5:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/308 "2023-09-21T17:39:45Z")
> [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > I see people who have bought entire characters… I took full advantage of that to make my first billions back when a single million was a lot of ISK. I often had five to ten characters doing nothing but sitting in a station for a year training all the base skills no one wanted to waste their time with. Here’s the thing. I took advantage of the character bazaar because CCP decided trading characters would be a good source of income. Not because it would be good for the game. It was actually terrible for the game and should never been implemented. Characters should have been account bound from the beginning. You make one, it’s yours forever. No trade. No sell. The Character Bazaar was CCP dipping their toe into P2W for the first time. And they liked it. So they started making mechanics dependent on players digging into their wallets instead of mechanics good for the game. All the way up to taking over the RMT business instead of stamping down on it. And now we have a forum full of P2W apologists pretending everything is just peachy with the game. Supporting CCP’s “Greed is good” strategy of game development. What a bunch of chumps. You got the game you deserve. Mr Epeen 🕶 ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2023, 6:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/309 "2023-09-21T18:02:17Z")
> [@Karak\_Terrel](#): > > Yes, which is also a pay2win mechanic. You can’t explain away pay2win mechanics by pointing to other pay2win mechanics the game also has and then conclude that makes it less pay2win. That’s just silly. Oh…but I _can_ point out that this ‘also’, which is probably the biggest ‘skill injector’ in the entire game, always seems to get overlooked by anti-P2W people. Maybe because unlike using skill injectors, buying a character is visible in Employment History…and I guess anti-P2W people probably have friends who have that in their history so are far more reluctant to call it out 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2023, 6:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/310 "2023-09-21T18:08:02Z")
> [@Mr\_Epeen](#): > > It was actually terrible for the game and should never been implemented. Characters should have been account bound from the beginning. You make one, it’s yours forever. No trade. No sell. The P2W aspect of it does not bother me half as much as the concept that someone can buy kills they never actually took part in. Bought characters should be made to have a new name and have kills all cleared down. It’s one thing buying someone’s skills…its quite another buying all their victories etc. As for P2W and PLEX…I’m one of an increasing number who simply can’t be bothered mining for hours when £10 can get me 1.2bn ISK. Bear in mind I joined a game where some people are already 20 years ahead. Why would I _not_ want to use whatever means available to level the playing field ? There’s no way I could ever catch up just with grind. ---
**Author:** ![Karak\_Terrel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/karak_terrel/32/373453_2.png) [@Karak\_Terrel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Karak_Terrel)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2023, 6:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/311 "2023-09-21T18:32:58Z")
> [@Io\_Koval](#): > > It used to be possible, too. You could always buy characters. As far as I remember. Again, pointing to other pay2win mechanics doesn’t make the pay2win mechanic you try to defend with that not pay2win > [@Io\_Koval](#): > > No. But that ship has sailed. Summer of Rage and all that. I was there. Yes, but why lie about it and pretend it’s not pay2win? > [@Io\_Koval](#): > > It’s a dumb debate. Perfectly represents dumb mainstream gaming culture. Yeah feel free to not take part in it if you find the debate dumb. What some of us say is that pretending this mechanics are not pay2win is just lying to yourselves. A decade of the community making excuses on behalf of CCP for making one of the most blatant pay2win games has only made matters worse and it turns a once awesome game bit by bit into a store front. Feel free to ignore it and continue to look the other way, I’m fine with that. But you don’t look the other way, you come to this thread and actively make excuses. > [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > Oh…but I _can_ point out that this ‘also’, which is probably the biggest ‘skill injector’ in the entire game, always seems to get overlooked by anti-P2W people. Oh sure you can point it out, and so do we. We don’t overlook it, it’s one of the first pay2win mechanics this game ever had and we totally should point it out. The game would be better off without it. Also > [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > anti-P2W people I like that label you just given us. I guess that makes you the “pro-P2W” people > [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > The P2W aspect of it does not bother me half as much as the concept that someone can buy kills they never actually took part in. It doesn’t have to bother you to be pay2win. The important point is that you now acknowledge it is pay2win and that is progress. You are capable of learning 👏 👏 👏 ---
**Author:** ![Io\_Koval](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/io_koval/32/282426_2.png) [@Io\_Koval](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Io_Koval)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2023, 7:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/312 "2023-09-21T19:33:03Z")
> [@Karak\_Terrel](#): > > Feel free to ignore it and continue to look the other way, I’m fine with that. But you don’t look the other way, you come to this thread and actively make excuses. Yeah, I don’t look the other way because it could be way way worse. I’m not making excuses for it either. The status quo sucks, who cares if the label is „pay to win“ though. I don’t give a damn. You really don’t either. What we both care about is that the game is in a poor state, and this stupid label divides us for no reason. That’s why I Wade in. Folks like you blind to stupid slogans like „pay to win“ can’t recognize an ally because of an artificial label. Arguing about the label is dumb. Just because I don’t like it, doesn’t mean there isn’t common ground between you and I. You’re just too blind and in too deep to see we both hate the status quo, regardless of label. It would be hilarious if it wasn’t sad. ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2023, 8:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/313 "2023-09-21T20:18:39Z")
> [@Karak\_Terrel](#): > > The important point is that you now acknowledge it is pay2win and that is progress. The important point is that I don’t care. I see a manufactured ‘problem’ that does not actually exist. No noob with £1 million to spend on Eve is ever going to catch up with the uneven playing field they log into…no matter how much ISK they spend. Thus nobody _can_ ‘pay’ to win and you might as well argue over how much DPS a unicorn has. ---
**Author:** ![Drx\_Drx](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/drx_drx/32/383107_2.png) [@Drx\_Drx](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Drx_Drx)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2023, 8:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/314 "2023-09-21T20:38:29Z")
A newbro cant pay to win but a bitter vet can You deliberately ignore the elephant in the room, or should i say the whale ---
**Author:** ![Karak\_Terrel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/karak_terrel/32/373453_2.png) [@Karak\_Terrel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Karak_Terrel)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2023, 8:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/315 "2023-09-21T20:45:29Z")
> [@Io\_Koval](#): > > Yeah, I don’t look the other way because it could be way way worse. Yes, and by pretending it is not pay2win you signal CCP that this is fine and it will get worse. We have over a decade of prove for that > [@Io\_Koval](#): > > That’s why I Wade in. Folks like you blind to stupid slogans like „pay to win“ can’t recognize an ally because of an artificial label. Arguing about the label is dumb. Just because I don’t like it, doesn’t mean there isn’t common ground between you and I. Yeah I really don’t care it you don’t like that label. We could come up with something completely different to name this mechanics and it would develop the same stench after a while. The fact is, every gamer immediately understands what pay2win means and it describes perfectly well in what state EVE is. I don’t care if you don’t like that, it’s just the reality of what EVE has become a long time ago. > [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > The important point is that I don’t care. Yeah, all of you people who make threads to make excuses about pay2win mechanics and vocally oppose anyone who would label the game pay2win don’t really care about any of this. Sure > [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > I see a manufactured ‘problem’ that does not actually exist. No noob with £1 million to spend on Eve is ever going to catch up with the uneven playing field they log into…no matter how much ISK they spend. Again, it literally doesn’t matter how effective this is. It’s pay2win because the game allows you to pay money to acquire things that are game relevant instead of acquiring them by playing the game. It’s as simple as that, it doesn’t matter if the impact of that is negligible, it damages immersion and dilutes in-game achievements all the same. ---
**Author:** ![Io\_Koval](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/io_koval/32/282426_2.png) [@Io\_Koval](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Io_Koval)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2023, 9:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/316 "2023-09-21T21:43:13Z")
> [@Karak\_Terrel](#): > > Yes, and by pretending it is not pay2win you signal CCP that this is fine and it will get worse. We have over a decade of prove for that You are beyond having a reasonable discussion with. ---
**Author:** ![Karak\_Terrel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/karak_terrel/32/373453_2.png) [@Karak\_Terrel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Karak_Terrel)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2023, 9:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/317 "2023-09-21T21:52:21Z")
I’m not sure why you are so butthurt that I call this game pay2win. It literally is full of such mechanics. Maybe you should ask yourself why you have such a problem acknowledging that, and why you need to make excuses for CCP by getting offended if anyone calls eve pay2win. You are not the “reasonable” side here. ---
**Author:** ![Vokan\_Narkar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vokan_narkar/32/326293_2.png) [@Vokan\_Narkar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vokan_Narkar)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2023, 9:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/318 "2023-09-21T21:59:04Z")
> [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > The important point is that I don’t care. 😂 This reminds me the carebears which convo me after I gank them (or in some cases when I die in rookie ship because of their killright as they think they got a revenge) and crying to me or trying to mock me. They always start this with “I don’t care (that I lost my ship)”. But if they don’t care why are they typing all that crap in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![Io\_Koval](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/io_koval/32/282426_2.png) [@Io\_Koval](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Io_Koval)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2023, 10:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/319 "2023-09-21T22:04:50Z")
I’m not sure the conversation you think you’re having in your head matches the actual conversation happening here. I don’t mean you’re unreasonable in the sense that you’re stubborn. I mean you are using your powerful faculties of reason to go deep into the imaginary. First off, I have not defended CCP in any way. I’m not sure why you are so glued to this idea that anyone who has a shred of different thought “must” be exhibiting this behavior. Second, you and I agree on the poor monetization scheme of the game. For some reason, my refusal to call it “pay to win” like actual “pay to win games” causes you to get very upset, since I’ve explained I’d give it some other category. A still 💩 category. And you responded that you just want to slap a “garbage pay2win” label and don’t give a 💩 about the nuance I mentioned. OK! For some reason, you then have to lash out pretend I’m the upset one instead. Third, to me, both of these reflect that your behavior is reflecting not engaging and treating others like human beings with original thought, but you’d rather just scream out your deep passion for the one idea you want to harp on until the end of time because to you it’s the only one. Reasonable people don’t conduct themselves in these 3 ways. ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2023, 10:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/320 "2023-09-21T22:18:05Z")
> [@Karak\_Terrel](#): > > Again, it literally doesn’t matter how effective this is. It’s pay2win because the game allows you to pay money to acquire things that are game relevant instead of acquiring them by playing the game. It’s as simple as that, it doesn’t matter if the impact of that is negligible, it damages immersion and dilutes in-game achievements all the same. Utter nonsense. Nobody who simply ‘plays the game’ via grind has a hope in hell of ever catching up on the un-level playing field that is a game in which people already have a **20 years** head start on you ! You rattle on as if you were protesting about some unfairness…yet _that_ is the real elephant in the room that you have spent 500 posts evading. Whilst I might have agreed that any P2W would have been unfair when Eve first started…it is totally reasonable to allow it now _precisely because_ any noob now has to contend with people so far ahead and with alliances that have a ̶s̶t̶r̶a̶n̶g̶l̶e̶h̶o̶l̶d̶ hold on the entire universe. And you think some noob in his Merlin buying 50 PLEX so he can get a Gnosis rather than mining for 4 hours is a _threat_ to that ? Seriously ? ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2023, 10:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/321 "2023-09-21T22:27:10Z")
> [@Vokan\_Narkar](#): > > This reminds me Nah…it’s a different kind of ‘I don’t care’. Its not the ’ I’m going to pretend you’ve had no impact’ sort of not caring’ It’s the ‘I’m going to carry on buying PLEX regardless’ sort of not caring. ---
**Author:** ![Karak\_Terrel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/karak_terrel/32/373453_2.png) [@Karak\_Terrel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Karak_Terrel)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2023, 10:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/322 "2023-09-21T22:34:55Z")
> [@Vokan\_Narkar](#): > > They always start this with “I don’t care (that I lost my ship)”. But if they don’t care why are they typing all that crap in the first place? Did not want that Retriever anyway [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369.md?page=15) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369.md?page=17)