# The 'Pay To Win' Myth **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [September 8, 2023, 2:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369 "2023-09-08T14:03:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Sienna\_Massilia](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sienna_massilia/32/390388_2.png) [@Sienna\_Massilia](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sienna_Massilia)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2023, 8:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/363 "2023-09-22T20:40:38Z")
> [@Drx\_Drx](#): > > Golden ammo would become a cash only, minimal requirement for participation on top of a regular sub You can’t support an argument with something that doesn’t exist in the game. Although Javelins and Void ammo _do_ look golden enough, I doubt CCP would ever implement such a bad idea. For anything else that does exist, like PLEX and SP Injectors, I also do believe this: > [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > if grind was ALL that was available I’d have left Eve a long time ago…and so would many others because I, too, would be gone if grind was the _only_ way to make isk and progress faster. ---
**Author:** ![Karak\_Terrel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/karak_terrel/32/373453_2.png) [@Karak\_Terrel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Karak_Terrel)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2023, 8:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/364 "2023-09-22T20:40:38Z")
> [@Sienna\_Massilia](#): > > No, because it would be available to anyone who wants to buy it which wouldn’t make it exclusive to a handfull which would mean it’s no advantage and still wouldn’t win anything. You hands down win the golden champion of the mobile generation award. > [@Sienna\_Massilia](#): > > It’s still _my_ money to spend and CCP’s game to sell. If you don’t want to pay that’s fine, but don’t whine because others choose to. You can pay as much money you want on a game you have no time to play, I certainly will shed no tear on behalf of your wallet. It’s still pay2win though ---
**Author:** ![Sienna\_Massilia](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sienna_massilia/32/390388_2.png) [@Sienna\_Massilia](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sienna_Massilia)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2023, 8:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/365 "2023-09-22T20:49:57Z")
> [@Karak\_Terrel](#): > > You hands down win the golden champion of the mobile generation award I hope there’s some isk involved in that deal 🙂 > [@Karak\_Terrel](#): > > You can pay as much money you want on a game you have no time to play I do have time to play it, I simply choose to bypass the boring parts. I can’t help that you can’t understand that. > [@Karak\_Terrel](#): > > It’s still pay2win though You can’t control a corporations and you can’t control people’s spending so you might as well call it Duck2Win or Pew2Pay, it doesn’t matter. ---
**Author:** ![Drx\_Drx](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/drx_drx/32/383107_2.png) [@Drx\_Drx](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Drx_Drx)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2023, 8:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/366 "2023-09-22T20:50:23Z")
> [@Sienna\_Massilia](#): > > > [@Karak\_Terrel](#): > > > > So what you are saying is that even if they would add gold ammo that does 500% more damage and ships that can tank the second coming of jesus without any module into the cash shop exclusively, you would not call that pay2win either? > > No, because it would be available to anyone who wants to buy it which wouldn’t make it exclusive to a handfull which would mean it’s no advantage and still wouldn’t win anything. > [@Sienna\_Massilia](#): > > I doubt CCP would ever implement such a bad idea. Ok we are making progress here ---
**Author:** ![Karak\_Terrel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/karak_terrel/32/373453_2.png) [@Karak\_Terrel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Karak_Terrel)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2023, 8:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/367 "2023-09-22T20:52:38Z")
> [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > What kind of ‘immersion’ is that ? Why would anyone have a _problem_ with them getting in a battleship sooner ? I don’t have a problem with that. There are many ways to get ISK in the game. Wait… maybe the problem is that you are just bad at the game and you just have the options grinding ↔ spend money. Maybe this is a tragic story of a carebear who just doesn’t eve good. It makes more sense now. > [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > In fact I would go so far as to say that if grind was ALL that was available I’d have left Eve a long time ago… It does seem more and more that way. You really think its the grind or money. You don’t even consider that there are other options. > [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > As for ‘killing immersion’…what a load of nonsense. I mean you probably killed your immersion right from the start because you are used to throw money at the game, so I’m really not surprised you don’t understand that ---
**Author:** ![Karak\_Terrel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/karak_terrel/32/373453_2.png) [@Karak\_Terrel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Karak_Terrel)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2023, 9:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/368 "2023-09-22T21:02:28Z")
> [@Sienna\_Massilia](#): > > I hope there’s some isk involved in that deal 🙂 You get a voucher for a discount on a starter pack with a retriever. A good deal > [@Sienna\_Massilia](#): > > I do have time to play it, I simply choose to bypass the boring parts. I can’t help that you can’t understand that. I just don’t play the boring parts. That somehow never required to pay extra money > [@Sienna\_Massilia](#): > > You can’t control a corporations and you can’t control people’s spending so you might as well call it Duck2Win or Pew2Pay, it doesn’t matter. It’s fascinating really. You have zero issues with the most blatant examples of greedy pay2win mechanics, yet naming them what they are, pay2win mechanics seems to bother you. ---
**Author:** ![Sienna\_Massilia](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sienna_massilia/32/390388_2.png) [@Sienna\_Massilia](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sienna_Massilia)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2023, 9:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/369 "2023-09-22T21:07:51Z")
> [@Karak\_Terrel](#): > > You get a voucher for a discount on a starter pack with a retriever. A good deal A bad deal. I won’t be building a mining empire. Good try to make me look like a miner carebear though. > [@Karak\_Terrel](#): > > I just don’t play the boring parts. That somehow never required to pay extra money Then you don’t play EVE, you just insinuate stuff on its forum. Play the game first then come back with some valid arguments. > [@Karak\_Terrel](#): > > It’s fascinating really. You have zero issues with the most blatant examples of greedy pay2win mechanics, yet naming them what they are, pay2win mechanics seems to bother you What’s fascinating and what seems to bother _you_ is that corporations sell things and people choose to buy them. ---
**Author:** ![Karak\_Terrel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/karak_terrel/32/373453_2.png) [@Karak\_Terrel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Karak_Terrel)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2023, 9:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/370 "2023-09-22T21:08:11Z")
> [@Sienna\_Massilia](#): > > I don’t see what’s wrong with that. Omega state is required to play this game like it was meant to be played. I believe that Alpha account is a mistake. It devides the community. There should only be one kind of accounts for EVE and, yes, don’t want to pay the subscription then gtfo, absolutely. hey, this is something we can agree on ---
**Author:** ![Sienna\_Massilia](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sienna_massilia/32/390388_2.png) [@Sienna\_Massilia](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sienna_Massilia)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2023, 9:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/371 "2023-09-22T21:11:19Z")
> [@Karak\_Terrel](#): > > hey, this is something we can agree on That’s nice because we could argue about the other thing 'til kingdom come and I really don’t want to. I respect your position but won’t move on mine. ---
**Author:** ![Karak\_Terrel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/karak_terrel/32/373453_2.png) [@Karak\_Terrel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Karak_Terrel)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2023, 9:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/372 "2023-09-22T21:18:17Z")
> [@Sienna\_Massilia](#): > > Good try to make me look like a miner carebear Right. You are a pay2bear > [@Sienna\_Massilia](#): > > Then you don’t play EVE, you just insinuate stuff on its forum. Play the game first then come back with some valid arguments. Maybe I’m just better at the game than you and found ways to finance my gameplay without having to grind. It’s called playing the game. There are so many options to make ISK. It must be a completely foreign concept to you. People like you payed my sub though, because you buy PLEX and sell them on the market, so I should probably be thankful. > [@Sienna\_Massilia](#): > > What’s fascinating and what seems to bother _you_ is that corporations sell things and people choose to buy them. I don’t have problem with corporations selling things. I have a problem with corporations making their product bad so no one actually wants to play it anymore. It’s only fair to tell them if you like the product don’t you think? They will not make money if no one is left playing you know. If your favored baker suddenly changes the recipe for their bread and it starts to taste like ■■■■, you could pretend it’s all fine and just force it down, hoping everyone else will do the same since they are all fan of the bakery. Most likely the bakery will have to close at some point because literally everyone can taste the problem. Or you could just tell them and hopefully they will change the recipe so the bread tastes good again and it sells because it actually tastes good. > [@Sienna\_Massilia](#): > > That’s nice because we could argue about the other thing 'til kingdom come and I really don’t want to. Let’s argue on the other thing > [@Sienna\_Massilia](#): > > I respect your position but won’t move on mine. I’m always willing to move mine if someone actually would bother to make a good argument. Sadly it’s basically impossible in this discussion, because you guys are just in denial and it look like I’m just spot on with labeling this game pay2win. But we should continue to discuss it. At least outside on-lookers will see that not everyone is a brainwashed simp who excuses blatant pay2win mechanics in one of the most pay2win games in existence. It may reflect positive on the community. On the other hand, you OP and some other people here will make great study objects about how deep a community can drown in copium, should ever someone discover this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Sienna\_Massilia](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sienna_massilia/32/390388_2.png) [@Sienna\_Massilia](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sienna_Massilia)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2023, 9:30pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/373 "2023-09-22T21:30:08Z")
> [@Karak\_Terrel](#): > > Right. You are a pay2bear I’m still in control _if_ I want to pay or not so it’s not like I’m forced or okay with being robbed. And Pay2Bear is right, pay to carry the Alpha accounts. > [@Karak\_Terrel](#): > > Maybe I’m just better at the game than you and found ways to finance my gameplay without having to grind If it makes you feel good and all fluffy inside then yes, you are better at the game than I am 🙂 Congratulations, you won… _nothing_. > [@Karak\_Terrel](#): > > It’s called playing the game. There are so many options to make ISK. It must be a completely foreign concept to you I know the options to make isk and I _do_ use them. Only after an hour of doing it I think I have the prerogative to stop and do something else. Unless you advocate for people to lose their mind on grind? Have you? > [@Karak\_Terrel](#): > > People like you payed my sub though, because you buy PLEX and sell them on the market, so I should probably be thankful Maybe you should shut up then. > [@Karak\_Terrel](#): > > Let’s argue on the other thing I don’t think so. I don’t argue with unsufferable jerks. ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2023, 9:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/374 "2023-09-22T21:36:21Z")
> [@Karak\_Terrel](#): > > Wait… maybe the problem is that you are just bad at the game and you just have the options grinding ↔ spend money. Maybe this is a tragic story of a carebear who just doesn’t eve good. It makes more sense now. Ah…now all you have left is silly non-sequitur ad hominems. In which case **I win** ( and it didn’t require any cash ). > [@Karak\_Terrel](#): > > You don’t even consider that there are other options. I simply don’t care. It’s my way or highway. What other people do **is their problem**. ---
**Author:** ![Karak\_Terrel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/karak_terrel/32/373453_2.png) [@Karak\_Terrel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Karak_Terrel)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2023, 9:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/375 "2023-09-22T21:40:32Z")
> [@Sienna\_Massilia](#): > > I know the options to make isk and I _do_ use them. Only after an hour of doing it I think I have the prerogative to stop and do something else. Unless you advocate for people to lose their mind on grind? Have you? I have no problem when other people lose their mind on the grind. Someone has to do it obviously. The question is how you get their resources. You pay money, I play the game and find other means to get them from this people. > [@Sienna\_Massilia](#): > > Maybe you should shut up then. Absolutely not. I should expand on it. I ran a ganker squad for half a decade with SP extractor farm and, 4 omega accounts, never payed a penny and never grinded a minute. Basically some mobile game victims who are so bad at eve they need to pay2win it payed for all of it. I abuse the hell out of this mechanics. I just happen to acknowledge that they are classic pay2win mechanics the way they are in the book. > [@Sienna\_Massilia](#): > > I don’t think so. I don’t argue with unsufferable jerks. Calm down paybear ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2023, 9:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/376 "2023-09-22T21:43:05Z")
> [@Sienna\_Massilia](#): > > Congratulations, you won… _nothing_. He’s won at gatekeeping the Ghost Of Eve Past. A delusional spectre that wanders around howling about how unfair it is that some guy might buy a Gnosis with 25 PLEX bought from cash…and that might undo the entire 20 years worth of advantage and trillions of ISK and massive sov space owned by bloated corporations. ---
**Author:** ![Sienna\_Massilia](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sienna_massilia/32/390388_2.png) [@Sienna\_Massilia](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sienna_Massilia)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2023, 9:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/377 "2023-09-22T21:44:06Z")
@Altara_Zemara It’s pretty conclusive even from the naysayers: EVE _is not_ Pay2Win. Glad that issue has finally been tabled. ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2023, 9:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/378 "2023-09-22T21:49:30Z")
> [@Sienna\_Massilia](#): > > EVE _is not_ Pay2Win. Noooo ! You mean all those 30,000 man nullsec corps with their gazzilions of Titans and hundreds of sov systems are _not_ gonna quake in their boots and immediately surrender when I open my wallet and buy a Gnosis ? I think I’ll have to ask for my money back. ---
**Author:** ![Karak\_Terrel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/karak_terrel/32/373453_2.png) [@Karak\_Terrel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Karak_Terrel)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2023, 9:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/379 "2023-09-22T21:49:53Z")
> [@Sienna\_Massilia](#): > > EVE _is not_ Pay2Win. It is blatantly pay2win, it’s obvious to anyone who isn’t an over-invested simp ---
**Author:** ![Sienna\_Massilia](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sienna_massilia/32/390388_2.png) [@Sienna\_Massilia](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sienna_Massilia)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2023, 9:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/380 "2023-09-22T21:57:47Z")
> [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > A delusional spectre that wanders around howling about how unfair it is that some guy might buy a Gnosis with 25 PLEX bought from cash…and that might undo the entire 20 years worth of advantage and trillions of ISK and massive sov space owned by bloated corporations That’s what grinding will do. By allowing cash for stuff CCP is serving the community by preventing mental breakdowns and uncontrolled hallucinations. Thank you CCP. ---
**Author:** ![Sienna\_Massilia](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sienna_massilia/32/390388_2.png) [@Sienna\_Massilia](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sienna_Massilia)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2023, 10:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/381 "2023-09-22T22:02:55Z")
> [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > Noooo ! You mean all those 30,000 man nullsec corps with their gazzilions of Titans and hundreds of sov systems are _not_ gonna quake in their boots and immediately surrender when I open my wallet and buy a Gnosis ? According to the victims of grind they will. Maybe they would let you have their sovereign space if you explain that you bought all your skills with cash and they are now facing the deadly Pay2Win Queen. I mean, they _have_ to scurry in fear then, right? ---
**Author:** ![Aiko\_Danuja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aiko_danuja/32/481237_2.png) [@Aiko\_Danuja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aiko_Danuja)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2023, 10:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/382 "2023-09-22T22:35:25Z")
> [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > nothing is more _destructive_ of immersion than having to grind for hours on end to get a barge or hauler ( only to have it ganked…lol ) How is that immersion breaking? [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369.md?page=18) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369.md?page=20)