# The 'Pay To Win' Myth **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [September 8, 2023, 2:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369 "2023-09-08T14:03:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Drx\_Drx](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/drx_drx/32/383107_2.png) [@Drx\_Drx](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Drx_Drx)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2023, 10:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/383 "2023-09-22T22:50:11Z")
Vokan was right, the reason these threads pop up is so that people can reaffirm each others convictions that eve is not pay2win and pat each other on the back for being better than those people that play those other pay2win games ---
**Author:** ![Sienna\_Massilia](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sienna_massilia/32/390388_2.png) [@Sienna\_Massilia](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sienna_Massilia)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2023, 11:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/384 "2023-09-22T23:15:38Z")
> [@Drx\_Drx](#): > > the reason these threads pop up is so that people can reaffirm each others convictions that eve is not pay2win And it works every time 🙂 > [@Drx\_Drx](#): > > pat each other on the back for being better than those people that play those other pay2win games That’s right. EVE players who pay their subscription are way better than those others who play pay2win games. ---
**Author:** ![Wadiest\_Yong](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wadiest_yong/32/426921_2.png) [@Wadiest\_Yong](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wadiest_Yong)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2023, 11:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/385 "2023-09-22T23:41:41Z")
To reduce the wall of text, allow me to edit your OP, to make the situation clearer. > [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > Consider Jack and Joe
who both started ~~Eve~~ **college** on the same day. Jack ~~mines~~ studies for 10 hours a day. Joe ~~mines~~ for 5 hours a day. That’s the most either can manage. Straight away, from day 1, Jack has an _advantage_. He has more ~~grind~~ study time, and ~~is bringing in twice as much ISK~~ **has twice as many A-grades** as Joe _etc_ > > Isn’t that _already_ an ‘unfair advantage’ ? Nope. The amount of investment has nothing to do with fairness. > [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > Let’s say that Joe decides to ~~buy PLEX and convert to ISK~~ **hire help** , in such a manner that ~~half his income is from mining grind and half is from bought PLEX~~ **the hired person writes the papers in Joe’s stead**. _He now has the exact same ~~income~~ **number of A-grades** as Jack_. Surely all is now fair. Nope. He didn’t do the work. > [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > I’ve seen some claim that it is a point where one can buy something with cash that one _cannot_ gain via grind That’s a fairly accurate definition of pay2win. However 
 _ **skill point injectors** _ clearly offer something that is not achievable via normal grind: _ **someone** _ paid the _ **cash** _ for the empty injectors (or the cash to pay the plex to get the injectors, lol). Same thing with sp packets offered on top of other deals (plex, some omega time packets, etc). “Golden ammo” is an extreme example of p2w, one we do not have. But sticking to the definition EvE would be p2w. However, what others (and sometimes myself) allude to is that player skill and experience trumps skill points - because of _all sorts of reasons_ that try to circumvent the definition and because we’re not always rational, but emotional about the game that we want to keep clean. ---
**Author:** ![Karak\_Terrel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/karak_terrel/32/373453_2.png) [@Karak\_Terrel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Karak_Terrel)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2023, 11:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/386 "2023-09-22T23:55:46Z")
> [@Aiko\_Danuja](#): > > > [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > > > nothing is more _destructive_ of immersion than having to grind for hours on end to get a barge or hauler ( only to have it ganked
lol ) > > How is that immersion breaking? Yeah right? Nothing is more immersive than a round of surprise PvP ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 12:23am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/387 "2023-09-23T00:23:51Z")
> [@Sienna\_Massilia](#): > > The Deadly Pay2Win Queen It’s really a kinda magic. Maybe together we should rock Eve and leave the whiners to the Grind Rhapsody. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Epeen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mr_epeen/32/373308_2.png) [@Mr\_Epeen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mr_Epeen)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 1:05am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/388 "2023-09-23T01:05:24Z")
> [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > Maybe together we should rock Eve Maybe if you played the game instead of the forum, you wouldn’t need to pay money to maintain a level of wealth conducive with a decent quality of life gameplay. At least that works for me. Or just buy your gold ammo and go nutz. vOv Mr Epeen đŸ•¶ ---
**Author:** ![Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ax_l_thorne/32/412835_2.png) [@Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ax_l_Thorne)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 1:18am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/389 "2023-09-23T01:18:13Z")
> [@Sienna\_Massilia](#): > > You can’t support an argument with something that doesn’t exist in the game. Sure you can! It’s called pulling ■■■■ out of you ass and pretending it’s its credible information. In fact, one could go as far as adding it to Wikipedia, then citing that as “evidence” and saying “See! It must be true, because it’s on Wikipedia!” ---
**Author:** ![Mephiztopheleze](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mephiztopheleze/32/381036_2.png) [@Mephiztopheleze](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mephiztopheleze)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 2:15am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/390 "2023-09-23T02:15:11Z")
> [@Ax\_l\_Thorne](#): > > anyone who doesn’t see, or agree with him, has some sort of head trauma. Dude, we play EVE. I thinks it’s safe to assume we all have some sort of head trauma
 ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 2:20am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/391 "2023-09-23T02:20:02Z")
> [@Mr\_Epeen](#): > > Maybe if you played the game instead of the forum Who says I can’t do both ? In both cases
one of the most active people. ---
**Author:** ![Vokan\_Narkar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vokan_narkar/32/326293_2.png) [@Vokan\_Narkar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vokan_Narkar)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 5:28am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/392 "2023-09-23T05:28:09Z")
> [@Karak\_Terrel](#): > > If your favored baker suddenly changes the recipe for their bread and it starts to taste like ■■■■, you could pretend it’s all fine and just force it down, hoping everyone else will do the same since they are all fan of the bakery. Most likely the bakery will have to close at some point because literally everyone can taste the problem. > > Or you could just tell them and hopefully they will change the recipe so the bread tastes good again and it sells because it actually tastes good. haha I think that more proper analogy would be a drug dealer selling good stuff at first and then, once he has enough clients he starts dilute it with flour. ---
**Author:** ![Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ax_l_thorne/32/412835_2.png) [@Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ax_l_Thorne)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 5:45am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/393 "2023-09-23T05:45:54Z")
> [@Mephiztopheleze](#): > > Dude, we play EVE. > I thinks it’s safe to assume we all have some sort of head trauma
 Nah. I wouldn’t say EvE. I’d say it’s more applicable for those that engage on the EvE forums
 ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 10:12am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/394 "2023-09-23T10:12:23Z")
> [@Wadiest\_Yong](#): > > _ **skill point injectors** _ clearly offer something that is not achievable via normal grind: _ **someone** _ paid the _ **cash** _ for the empty injectors Oh yes. For a ‘mere’ 1bn ISK a noob can knock an entire
erm, 9 days
off the 20 year advantage some players have over him. That’s kinda like being sentenced to 19 years and 355 days and thinking ’ phew
I’m glad the judge didn’t give me 20 years ’ ---
**Author:** ![Sienna\_Massilia](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sienna_massilia/32/390388_2.png) [@Sienna\_Massilia](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sienna_Massilia)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 10:36am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/395 "2023-09-23T10:36:40Z")
> [@Ax\_l\_Thorne](#): > > I got it plain and clear. He hates this game. He thinks it’s trash, and that’s fine. But I personally don’t want to keep reading post after post after post of the same regurgitated hate filled rhetoric. Sorry, I just don’t. I play the game for fun. Sometimes to get a bit of satire in. A little lively discussion. But at the end of the day, I don’t associate with truly toxic people ☝ 💯% Exactly _that_! ☝ ---
**Author:** ![Wadiest\_Yong](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wadiest_yong/32/426921_2.png) [@Wadiest\_Yong](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wadiest_Yong)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 10:38am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/396 "2023-09-23T10:38:22Z")
> [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > 20 year advantage some players have over him. And that’s why, like I wrote, an emotional reaction and “reason” for not calling EvE p2w is exactly that: an emotional reaction that tries to circumvent the definition of p2w. It doesn’t matter if it’s “only 9 days for 1B” to do the test on the definition. You can’t buy experience, of course (and that’s why EvE is _not p2w_, we tell ourselves during less rational moments, and we are wrong). A rookie _may_ buy the feeling that one can catch up somehow with people who have invested years and years into developing their playstyle and pilots, who tried the game’s many different aspects. That, at least, is an illusion to separate the foolish from their cash. The whole _catching up_ argument/wish is misplaced - the only way to _catch up_ is by removing the older accounts
 You _can_ also buy yourself all the way into a ship class and what not. You _can_ buy yourself into multiboxing, where you clearly have an advantage over someone who does not. In the hands of an experienced veteran, SP becomes powerful when recombined with an extra account, etc. And that is definitely a p2w aspect. ---
**Author:** ![Sienna\_Massilia](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sienna_massilia/32/390388_2.png) [@Sienna\_Massilia](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sienna_Massilia)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 12:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/397 "2023-09-23T12:06:48Z")
@Wadiest_Yong It’s not about catching up. As you’ve correctly stated, a noob will _never_ catch up with veterans who have played for 10, 15 or 20 years. That’s an illusion. What I’m arguing on is: there is nothing wrong with being able to buy PLEX or SP Injectors to progress faster and so far I have read nothing to change my mind. The P2W argument is silly, especially about EVE. I’m not spending money on EVE to **win** , I’m spending it to bypass the grind. And as I and Altara have said before, if the grind was the only way to progress we wouldn’t play it. ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 12:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/398 "2023-09-23T12:19:22Z")
> [@Wadiest\_Yong](#): > > It doesn’t matter if it’s “only 9 days for 1B” to do the test on the definition. It doesn’t matter how you define ‘unicorn’ if they are having negligible actual impact on the world as a whole. Arguments about definition are essentially just attempts to distract from the real elephant in the room
the totally un-level playing field that noobs enter. > [@Wadiest\_Yong](#): > > A rookie _may_ buy the feeling that one can catch up somehow with people who have invested years and years into developing their playstyle and pilots, who tried the game’s many different aspects. That, at least, is an illusion to separate the foolish from their cash. The whole _catching up_ argument/wish is misplaced - the only way to _catch up_ is by removing the older accounts
 I think ‘catching up’ is probably the wrong way of expressing it. No noob is sitting there wondering why he’s not the new Mittani after his first week. Most week old noobs simply have no idea how far behind they are and are still at the ’ look at me, everyone, I’m in a Venture !’ stage of the game. But
soon after that you start to see the sort of comments I’ve seen in corp chat and in Rookie help where they can’t believe the slow progress and slow income. _That_, rather than ganking, is why so many leave. Of course, there is always a flurry of ’ go do level 4 missions’ and so on, but I’ve seen even experienced players comment how they do those missions yet still find it not enough, and they have to buy PLEX, skill injectors, etc. So it’s not ‘catching up’
rather it is negating the sense of going nowhere fast. I’m now flying a lot of big and powerful ships, but I am mindful of the fact that it has taken me **2 years** to get there. The agonising wait is all the more evident when one gets a second Omega, as I have, and 6 months in that account is still not flying many of the ships I take for granted in this account. I do not blame players for simply not having that kind of patience. And therein lies the true basis of ‘catching up’. There are people
and I’m one of them
who simply could not be bothered with the game if there is _too much_ waiting. ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 12:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/399 "2023-09-23T12:32:03Z")
> [@Sienna\_Massilia](#): > > What I’m arguing on is: there is nothing wrong with being able to buy PLEX or SP Injectors to progress faster and so far I have read nothing to change my mind. > > The P2W argument is silly, especially about EVE. > I’m not spending money on EVE to **win** , I’m spending it to bypass the grind. And as I and Altara have said before, if the grind was the only way to progress we wouldn’t play it. Only yesterday I had a supreme example of why ‘pay to win’ exists. I’d shifted the skills queue to one of my noob Omega alts who had fallen behind a bit. “Lets go to Jita and buy some Standard augments to speed up the skills training’” I thought. Great idea ! So off I saunter to Jita, buy 3 implants for 60m ISK total. I hit ‘plug in’ on the first implant
only to be told I can’t plug it in unless I am trained to Cybernetics Level IV. So
2.5 days training at slow speed in order to activate implants to speed up the training
lol ! Time for a small skill injector. ---
**Author:** ![Sienna\_Massilia](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sienna_massilia/32/390388_2.png) [@Sienna\_Massilia](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sienna_Massilia)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 12:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/400 "2023-09-23T12:46:56Z")
> [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > I hit ‘plug in’ on the first implant
only to be told I can’t plug it in unless I am trained to Cybernetics Level IV That’s exactly the sort of things that justify Cash2Progress. If I want to do an activity I want to do it _now_, not tomorrow. Tomorrow I may not be able to play, I may have a meeting and come out of it completely disgusted: not the right mental state to play EVE. Or I may simply not be in the mood to take risks with my assets. I took a deep look at the Hecate early on and knew that was the ship for me. Then I saw how long it was going to take to train into it plus the modules to make it all work and almost spewed my coffee all over the place. When I saw how much time I could shave off with injectors and Omega-speed training the choice was easy to make. Did I think “oh no, that’s P2W”? Hell no. I thought “\*Phew! Thank god for Pay2Progress!” Players want to **PLAY** EVE, not **WAIT** EVE. ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 1:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/401 "2023-09-23T13:22:20Z")
> [@Sienna\_Massilia](#): > > I took a deep look at the Hecate early on and knew that was the ship for me. Then I saw how long it was going to take to train into it plus the modules to make it all work and almost spewed my coffee all over the place. When I saw how much time I could shave off with injectors and Omega-speed training the choice was easy to make. Did I think “oh no, that’s P2W”? Hell no. I thought “\*Phew! Thank god for Pay2Progress!” Personally I love my Heavy Pulse Laser Gnosis fitting
which can deliver 650 DPS with overheating. It does exceedingly well in PvE, where it is really handy being able to switch between Conflag and Scorch instantly for extended range. It decimates NPCs in most systems. It’s all T2, and is 27 days training including sensor boosters, tracking computer, tracking enhancer, T2 Heavy Pulse Laser etc. A very nifty fitting. So
I simply want another character in the same account to be able to fly it. I’m not gonna take over the universe in it. To do the training I have to either do multiple account training ( which is a ‘pay 2 win’ package ) or take the skills queue off a main that already has a bunch of urgent skills requirements. Well
I don’t want my main in the account to go without training for 27 days, so ‘pay 2 progress’ definitely is the best option for the second char training. It’s as simple as that. I am not ‘winning’ anything. As they are both chars in the same account I can only fly one of them at a time anyway. I think giving actual examples of ‘pay to win’ is the best way to de-fang the issue. ---
**Author:** ![Tahiro](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tahiro/32/380789_2.png) [@Tahiro](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tahiro)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 2:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/402 "2023-09-23T14:15:57Z")
it turns out altara who was defending the skillsystem previously is actually a swiper trying to bypass it with the credit card, lul [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369.md?page=19) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369.md?page=21)