# The 'Pay To Win' Myth **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [September 8, 2023, 2:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369 "2023-09-08T14:03:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![Sienna\_Massilia](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sienna_massilia/32/390388_2.png) [@Sienna\_Massilia](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sienna_Massilia)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 2:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/403 "2023-09-23T14:16:25Z")
> [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > Personally I love my Heavy Pulse Laser Gnosis fitting…which can deliver 650 DPS with overheating. It does exceedingly well in PvE, where it is really handy being able to switch between Conflag and Scorch instantly for extended range. It decimates NPCs in most systems. It’s all T2, and is 27 days training including sensor boosters, tracking computer, tracking enhancer, T2 Heavy Pulse Laser etc. A very nifty fitting I haven’t taken a look at the Gnosis. My attention was on the Praxis until the Hecate training was done but then I chided myself for buying Navy-issue Catalysts and not even fly them. So I held off on the Praxis and started having fun with the Catalyst. Maybe I should take a look at the Gnosis. > [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > I think giving actual examples of ‘pay to win’ is the best way to de-fang the issue If we can even agree on a definition. ---
**Author:** ![DeMichael\_Crimson](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/demichael_crimson/32/514115_2.png) [@DeMichael\_Crimson](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/DeMichael_Crimson)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 2:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/404 "2023-09-23T14:22:11Z")
From reading this thread, I can see some older more experienced players are still hung up on the term 'Pay2Win". Due to that they have basically turned this thread into a hilarious attempt at justifying the use of Pay2Win options in Eve by describing them as Pay2Progress or Catch-up options. P2W in Eve is a short-cut that bypasses the original established game mechanics for character progression / advancment. That’s it, plain and simple. Calling it by another name is fine but it’s still P2W. Despite what others may say, Alpha account is not the basic requirement for playing Eve. It is a trial test of the game which is suppose to encourage becomming subbed as Omega. All this talk of new players needing to ‘Catch-Up’ to older more experienced players is a falacy, an illusion propagated by CCP in an effort to monetize the game for the ‘Instant Gratifacation’ crowd. At it’s core, Eve Online is a time based game and if new players can’t accept that, then they need to find another game. If not then they’ll just use their Credit Card in a vain attempt to ‘Catch-Up’ which will never happen… ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 2:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/405 "2023-09-23T14:39:38Z")
> [@DeMichael\_Crimson](#): > > P2W in Eve is a short-cut that bypasses the original established game mechanics for character progression / advancment. The ‘original’ mechanic for character progression was **20 years** ago. That means there are people **20 years** ahead of any noob who joins the game. So let’s call this issue what it really is… **gatekeeping** by all those with a 20 year advantage who go into hysterics at the mere thought of anyone ‘catching up’ by buying 2 days worth of skill injector. ---
**Author:** ![Wadiest\_Yong](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wadiest_yong/32/426921_2.png) [@Wadiest\_Yong](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wadiest_Yong)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 2:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/406 "2023-09-23T14:46:36Z")
> [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > It doesn’t matter how you define ‘unicorn’ if they are having negligible actual impact on the world as a whole. Arguments about definition are essentially just attempts to distract from the real elephant in the room…the totally un-level playing field that noobs enter. Definitions matter, they create a level discussion ground, and no doubletalk. As to the “totally un-level playing field that noobs enter”: so what ?! The same is true for almost all games, down to tic-tac-toe. The same is true for life itself, and it would be very awkward if kids start to complain about the presence of people older and more experienced than they are. EvE is a “good” game in that it allows rookies to reach their personal goals, despite being around people having played 10-20 years longer. You don’t win the game by having the most SP, or the most ISK. There is no win condition. Except, if you allow me, the win you achieve when you discover strengths and overcome weaknesses within yourself. That’s the kind of game it truly is. EvE, as I’ve written somewhere before, holds up a mirror. If you don’t have the patience to wait and grow, that’s fine too. Play it your way, the cash options are there after all. No judgment there, at least not from me, you are entitled to that choice. **But it’s a strange move to create a thread to justify your own actions in spending extra cash, and pretend that definitions are optional. Let’s keep it honest. You bought an advantage that is not available in the game, making that a p2w move.** @DeMichael_Crimson I could have written your post myself 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 2:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/407 "2023-09-23T14:46:44Z")
> [@Tahiro](#): > > it turns out altara who was defending the skillsystem previously is actually a swiper trying to bypass it with the credit card, lul Whatever happened to Eve being a cold, hard, heartless universe where people support whatever best suits their progress ? You want morals…you’re in the wrong game. ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 2:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/408 "2023-09-23T14:56:20Z")
> [@Wadiest\_Yong](#): > > As to the “totally un-level playing field that noobs enter”: so what ?! The same is true for almost all games, down to tic-tac-toe. The same is true for life itself. ‘Life Itself’ is the biggest pay 2 win game there is. Though the devs did an even worse job of it than Eve. ---
**Author:** ![Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ax_l_thorne/32/412835_2.png) [@Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ax_l_Thorne)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 2:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/409 "2023-09-23T14:57:02Z")
> [@DeMichael\_Crimson](#): > > P2W in Eve is a short-cut that bypasses the original established game mechanics for character progression / advancment. Is there _really_ character progression and advancement in a sandbox game? Is the point of EvE to obtain all the skill points before someone else? ---
**Author:** ![Wadiest\_Yong](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wadiest_yong/32/426921_2.png) [@Wadiest\_Yong](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wadiest_Yong)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 3:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/410 "2023-09-23T15:01:51Z")
> [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > ‘Life Itself’ is the biggest pay 2 win game there is. To a degree, yes. All the more reason to not have this in a game we play to get away from all that nonsense. Alas, too late. ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 3:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/411 "2023-09-23T15:05:13Z")
> [@Wadiest\_Yong](#): > > But it’s a strange move to create a thread to justify your own actions in spending extra cash, and pretend that definitions are optional. Let’s keep it honest. You bought an advantage that is not available in the game, making that a p2w move. OMG…I bought a 2 days worth of skill injector. The horror ! Anybody’d think I’d hacked into servers and trashed an alliance and came out its ruler…or something. Oh._.that’s_ all OK in Eve…but God forbid that anyone spend £2.50 on a skill injector as that’s just not cricket ! ---
**Author:** ![Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ax_l_thorne/32/412835_2.png) [@Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ax_l_Thorne)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 3:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/412 "2023-09-23T15:09:41Z")
> [@Wadiest\_Yong](#): > > we play to get away from all that nonsense. Not according to _some_ people, who maintain that in game behavior = RL behavior. So with that in mind, can one truly escape the “real world” in a fictional fantasy space dystopia game? ---
**Author:** ![Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ax_l_thorne/32/412835_2.png) [@Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ax_l_Thorne)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 3:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/413 "2023-09-23T15:14:00Z")
> [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > I bought a 2 days worth of skill injector. Oh, the horror! You bought skill points from someone else who farmed them for isk? The nerve! How dare you trade ISK for skill points that were gained legitimately from a farm of clones and use them! You’re clearly have a 2 mil SP advantage over some other person, who wouldn’t know anyway! ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 3:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/414 "2023-09-23T15:14:21Z")
> [@Ax\_l\_Thorne](#): > > Not according to _some_ people, who maintain that in game behavior = RL behavior. So with that in mind, can one truly escape the “real world” in a fictional fantasy space dystopia game? In RL I’ll probably be playing Scrabble in an old people’s home in 20 years. RL is finite, which is all the more reason not to spend years of it grinding. ---
**Author:** ![Wadiest\_Yong](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wadiest_yong/32/426921_2.png) [@Wadiest\_Yong](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wadiest_Yong)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 3:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/415 "2023-09-23T15:21:54Z")
> [@Ax\_l\_Thorne](#): > > Not according to _some_ people, who maintain that in game behavior = RL behavior. So with that in mind, can one truly escape the “real world” in a fictional fantasy space dystopia game? As long as there’s a wide variety of behaviors possible in EvE that would land you in really hot waters in the real world, yes. Disclaimer: there may be some questionable people playing EvE, attracted to the game for that reason. If that is the case, good. It keeps them off our streets doing stuff for real, lol. Not sure if that would have a therapeutic effect on them, but at least it has one on their environment. 🧐 ---
**Author:** ![Karak\_Terrel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/karak_terrel/32/373453_2.png) [@Karak\_Terrel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Karak_Terrel)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 3:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/416 "2023-09-23T15:26:18Z")
> [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > RL is finite, which is all the more reason not to spend years of it grinding. Sinking money into a game you have no time playing isn’t the brightest move either ---
**Author:** ![Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ax_l_thorne/32/412835_2.png) [@Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ax_l_Thorne)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 3:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/417 "2023-09-23T15:39:53Z")
> [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > In RL I’ll probably be playing Scrabble in an old people’s home in 20 years. RL is finite, which is all the more reason not to spend years of it grinding. But you’ll be at a serious disadvantage because you spent the previous 20 years playing EvE where your opponent was playing scrabble instead. ---
**Author:** ![DeMichael\_Crimson](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/demichael_crimson/32/514115_2.png) [@DeMichael\_Crimson](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/DeMichael_Crimson)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 3:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/418 "2023-09-23T15:41:09Z")
> [@Wadiest\_Yong](#): > > As to the “totally un-level playing field that noobs enter”: so what ?! The same is true for almost all games, down to tic-tac-toe. The same is true for life itself. EvE is a “good” game in that it allows rookies to reach their personal goals, despite being around people having played 10-20 years longer. You don’t win the game by having the most SP, or the most ISK. There is no win condition. Except, if you allow me, the win you achieve when you discover strengths and overcome weaknesses within yourself. This 100% Winning Eve is all about completing the personal goals you set for your character. When I first started playing Eve in 2008, my first goal was to complete level 3 combat missions within the bonus time using a max fit T1 Frigate. Basically had older players saying it couldn’t be done. It took me 9 months of max training every skill related to piloting and fitting a Frigate to complete that goal. I won Eve with that. My next goal was to have positive Faction standings with all Empire Factions. Again older players said it couldn’t be done and I had to pick a side between Amarr/Caldari or Gallente/Minmatar. It took me 3 months of research and after months of documenting my progress, I presented the ‘Faction Standing Repair Plan’ to the community. I won Eve with that and more importantly, helped countless other players to also win Eve. While working ‘The Plan’, my next goal was to complete all High Sec and Low Sec Empire Cosmos Agents. It took months and months of time and eventually I completed that goal as well. Once again I won Eve with that. The list goes on and on, setting goals and completing them. Every time a goal is completed, that’s a win. Currently the last goal I’ve set is to collect every single piece of Apparel item implemented in the game. That’s a very tough goal to accomplish and I highly doubt I’ll ever be able to complete that goal. However, if you aim high and fall short, you still win… To this date I currently have 751 different male/female apparel items in my collection, probably the largest collection in all of New Eden. Even if I don’t get every single apparel item ever implemented in the game, I still feel that I’ve won Eve with that. So yeah, winning Eve is all about completing the personal goals you set for your character. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Epeen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mr_epeen/32/373308_2.png) [@Mr\_Epeen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mr_Epeen)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 3:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/419 "2023-09-23T15:45:09Z")
Well said. My Current goal is to have a hangar with one trillion ISK worth of ships in it. Mr Epeen 🕶 ---
**Author:** ![Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ax_l_thorne/32/412835_2.png) [@Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ax_l_Thorne)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 3:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/420 "2023-09-23T15:47:54Z")
> [@DeMichael\_Crimson](#): > > I won Eve with that. I won EvE when I mastered the character editor. > [@DeMichael\_Crimson](#): > > My next goal was to have positive Faction standings with all Empire Factions. Impressive. Screenshots to verify and it would be really impressive! But I agree. There really isn’t a “win” condition set in the game, except the goals you set for yourself. And how could one get an advantage over another of everyones goals are unique and individualized. That’s why EvE is not P2W. It may be pay to assist in you achieving those personal goals. But win? No. My current goal is to get to strike commander in FW. ---
**Author:** ![DeMichael\_Crimson](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/demichael_crimson/32/514115_2.png) [@DeMichael\_Crimson](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/DeMichael_Crimson)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 4:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/421 "2023-09-23T16:06:03Z")
> [@Ax\_l\_Thorne](#): > > > [@DeMichael\_Crimson](#): > > > > My next goal was to have positive Faction standings with all Empire Factions. > > Impressive. > > Screenshots to verify and it would be really impressive! Here’s a screen shot of my standings taken in June 2023: ![](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/f/1/f/f1f9af7a6fecb1475d28d6e6d0d1746b8d537560.jpeg) Here’s my current Character Board: [https://char.tools4eve.com/character.php?name=DeMichael\_Crimson](https://char.tools4eve.com/character.php?name=DeMichael_Crimson) ---
**Author:** ![Tahiro](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tahiro/32/380789_2.png) [@Tahiro](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tahiro)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 5:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/422 "2023-09-23T17:10:43Z")
> [@Wadiest\_Yong](#): > > As to the “totally un-level playing field that noobs enter”: so what ?! The same is true for almost all games wrong, most games/sports have either some kind of matchmaking, rating systems, leagues, weight classes, restrictions, rules, whatever to keep it competitive and interesting. even eve or tic tac toe which you mentioned has some mechanics/rules for that matter and they are also desperately needed. there are arguably some parts of the game which would benefit from more mechanics/gameplay options/incentives that help to level the playing field, or at least secure that it doesnt get any worse, because otherwise it will eventually results in less content/fun/players. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369.md?page=20) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369.md?page=22)