# The 'Pay To Win' Myth **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [September 8, 2023, 2:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369 "2023-09-08T14:03:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![Karak\_Terrel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/karak_terrel/32/373453_2.png) [@Karak\_Terrel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Karak_Terrel)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 5:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/423 "2023-09-23T17:31:26Z")
> [@Mr\_Epeen](#): > > My Current goal is to have a hangar with one trillion ISK worth of ships in it. You could pay2win that in a few seconds, just swipe the card! ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Epeen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mr_epeen/32/373308_2.png) [@Mr\_Epeen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mr_Epeen)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 5:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/424 "2023-09-23T17:40:17Z")
Indeed I could. But unlike all the nublets that would be fine with it, I’d just feel dirty. Like buying my doctorate online instead of going to medical school. When you remove the challenge, you remove the joy and satisfaction. Mr Epeen 🕶 ---
**Author:** ![Rexxar\_Santaro](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/rexxar_santaro/32/420075_2.png) [@Rexxar\_Santaro](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Rexxar_Santaro)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 5:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/425 "2023-09-23T17:49:07Z")
So what you decided? Is this game P2W? ---
**Author:** ![Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ax_l_thorne/32/412835_2.png) [@Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ax_l_Thorne)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 6:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/426 "2023-09-23T18:21:11Z")
It’s a whatever you want it to be. ---
**Author:** ![Sienna\_Massilia](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sienna_massilia/32/390388_2.png) [@Sienna\_Massilia](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sienna_Massilia)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 6:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/427 "2023-09-23T18:42:52Z")
> [@Wadiest\_Yong](#): > > As to the “totally un-level playing field that noobs enter”: so what ?! I agree. I pay for SP and Isk… so what?! ---
**Author:** ![Wadiest\_Yong](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wadiest_yong/32/426921_2.png) [@Wadiest\_Yong](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wadiest_Yong)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 7:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/428 "2023-09-23T19:37:02Z")
> [@Sienna\_Massilia](#): > > want to **PLAY** EVE, not **WAIT** EVE. > [@Sienna\_Massilia](#): > > I took a deep look at the Hecate early on and knew that was the ship for me. Then I saw how long it was going to take to train into it plus the modules to make it all work and almost spewed my coffee all over the place. 🤪 > [@Wadiest\_Yong](#): > > If you don’t have the patience to wait and grow, that’s fine too. Play it your way, the cash options are there after all. No judgment there, at least not from me, you are entitled to that choice. wasn’t enough for you ? > [@Sienna\_Massilia](#): > > I pay for SP and Isk… so what?! I can recommend a command ship, a couple of t3c’s and a dreadnaught. Over to you. And put your cup down first. Have fun with your “play2progress”, or whateveryouwannacallit. ---
**Author:** ![Sienna\_Massilia](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sienna_massilia/32/390388_2.png) [@Sienna\_Massilia](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sienna_Massilia)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 7:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/429 "2023-09-23T19:44:46Z")
> [@Wadiest\_Yong](#): > > wasn’t enough for you ? I’m not attacking you. You made a statement that dismissed new bros’ progression so I made one that dismisses vet’s time in the game. > [@Wadiest\_Yong](#): > > I can recommend a command ship, a couple of t3c’s and a dreadnaught Thank you but I’m happy in my Hecate. I said before that Destroyer Class was my favorite so I don’t know what I would do with a Dreadnought. > [@Wadiest\_Yong](#): > > Over to you. And put your cup down first Eh? Did your brain go to mush with all the grind too? > [@Wadiest\_Yong](#): > > Have fun with your “play2progress” Thank you. I _am_ having fun thanks to P2P. ---
**Author:** ![Wadiest\_Yong](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wadiest_yong/32/426921_2.png) [@Wadiest\_Yong](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wadiest_Yong)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 7:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/430 "2023-09-23T19:49:28Z")
> [@Sienna\_Massilia](#): > > Eh? Did your brain go to mush with all the grind too? Taking down those POCO’s in hisec is murder on the brain, no question about it. I wish I had time to relax and do some mining for minerals for my next build while dodging some gankerdudetypes. > [@Sienna\_Massilia](#): > > I _am_ having fun thanks to P2P. Not strong on definitions eh ? I don’t care if you spend all your credit on this game. But don’t pretend it’s not bypassing the normal flow. It’s okay to be impatient, it’s not okay to try to convince us it’s not impatience, lol. You buy shortcuts not available in the game. > [@Sienna\_Massilia](#): > > I have read nothing to change my mind. You never will, we will stay at a difference of opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Sienna\_Massilia](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sienna_massilia/32/390388_2.png) [@Sienna\_Massilia](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sienna_Massilia)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 8:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/431 "2023-09-23T20:02:09Z")
> [@Wadiest\_Yong](#): > > Not strong on definitions eh ? Thanks for the insult. > [@Wadiest\_Yong](#): > > But don’t pretend it’s not bypassing the normal flow I never pretended it isn’t. If you had read my posts without insults in your head you would know that. > [@Sienna\_Massilia](#): > > **It’s not about catching up**. As you’ve correctly stated, a noob will _never_ catch up with veterans who have played for 10, 15 or 20 years. That’s an illusion > [@Sienna\_Massilia](#): > > I’m not spending money on EVE to **win** , I’m **spending it to bypass** the grin You obviously cannot have a conversation with people who disagree with you. You resort to insults and belittling. I don’t want to be insulted by you so goodbye and have a nice life. ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 8:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/432 "2023-09-23T20:05:17Z")
> [@Karak\_Terrel](#): > > Sinking money into a game you have no time playing isn’t the brightest move either Sigh. I have plenty of time to play it…which is precisely _why_ I don’t have time to grind for 12 different characters. I’m actually one of the most active people in the game. But heck…give me more non sequiturs, why not. ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 8:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/433 "2023-09-23T20:16:57Z")
> [@DeMichael\_Crimson](#): > > Winning Eve is all about completing the personal goals you set for your character. Your list is admirable…but I don’t see the point in goals who’s end result nobody but you knows about. If I make 100 trillion ISK, its of zero relevance to me if nobody knows I have 100 trillion ISK. This is why I care nothing for PvE and ‘winning’ against NPCs. I am competitive and the only Eve worth playing for me is one where other people can see that. It is otherwise not worth logging in. ---
**Author:** ![Sienna\_Massilia](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sienna_massilia/32/390388_2.png) [@Sienna\_Massilia](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sienna_Massilia)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 8:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/434 "2023-09-23T20:25:23Z")
> [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > Your list is admirable…but I don’t see the point in goals who’s end result nobody but you knows about They’re throwing everything at it, including the kitchen sink, because they can’t stand the idea that they had to grind but we don’t have to. I don’t care what they think. CCP thought it right to add Pay2Progress to EVE and for good reasons. Who are they to go against the devs decisions? They don’t even work in the industry. They couldn’t code an exit to save their lives but they know better than the devs _and_ the CSM? Gimme a break. ---
**Author:** ![Wadiest\_Yong](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wadiest_yong/32/426921_2.png) [@Wadiest\_Yong](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wadiest_Yong)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 8:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/435 "2023-09-23T20:35:11Z")
> [@Sienna\_Massilia](#): > > You made a statement that dismissed new bros’ progression No, it is a statement about the relative importance of starting fresh in a 20 year old game, and the clever feeding off of new people by letting them spend cash for sp shortcuts. > [@Sienna\_Massilia](#): > > You obviously cannot have a conversation with people who disagree with you. You resort to insults and belittling. There is no “conversation” with people you agree with, only smiles and backpatting. You can only have an exchange of viewpoints with people who do not share the same opinion. Buying extra stuff, not available in the normal flow is, by definition (not mine, search the web where it originated), pay2win. I don’t care if anyone does in a game like EvE. You seem eager to read that buying shortcuts for cash is not pay2win for whatever reason. That is something I cannot give you, and if you feel hurt by that, there’s nothing I will do about that. ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 8:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/436 "2023-09-23T20:59:38Z")
> [@Sienna\_Massilia](#): > > Gimme a break. As you pointed out earlier, they are going all out to avoid the real elephant in the room…the totally un-level playing field after 20 years…and instead want to focus on endless absurd semantics about what P2W ‘means’. But the point is, even if we do go with their definition of what it means…we still don’t care. No definition of P2W makes that totally uneven playing field magically go away. And really, the ‘true’ definition of P2W is essentially a gatekeeping one. It’s about people with a 20 year advantage making sure they hang on to every second of that 20 year advantage and will _always_ be 20 years ahead. _That_ is why it is sheer anathema that anyone should be able to reduce it to 19 years and 363 days with 2 days worth of skill injector. Somehow the almost vertical playing field is totally fair whilst it is unfair if anyone reduces its angle by even 0.001 of a degree via PLEX. ---
**Author:** ![Sienna\_Massilia](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sienna_massilia/32/390388_2.png) [@Sienna\_Massilia](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sienna_Massilia)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 9:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/437 "2023-09-23T21:17:17Z")
> [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > As you pointed out earlier, they are going all out to avoid the real elephant in the room…the totally un-level playing field after 20 years They didn’t avoid it, it’s worse than that, and I quote: > [@Wadiest\_Yong](#): > > As to the “totally un-level playing field that noobs enter”: **so what ?!** They don’t give a good godamn. They pretend to care about the player count and new bros but really, all they care about is their stuff, their advantage and their time. But **we** ’re supposed to care about their precious definitions and their idea of progression? Then they hurl insults because they’re out of points to make, like juveniles? Altara, we’ve clearly won this debate, if only by virtue of towel throw the second they started insulting and demeaning us. ---
**Author:** ![Wadiest\_Yong](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wadiest_yong/32/426921_2.png) [@Wadiest\_Yong](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wadiest_Yong)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 9:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/438 "2023-09-23T21:45:58Z")
Suddenly, peace broke out. ---
**Author:** ![Sienna\_Massilia](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sienna_massilia/32/390388_2.png) [@Sienna\_Massilia](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sienna_Massilia)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 10:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/439 "2023-09-23T22:15:31Z")
> [@Wadiest\_Yong](#): > > and the clever feeding off of new people by letting them spend cash for sp shortcuts. You don’t care what money new people spend. You said so yourself. > [@Wadiest\_Yong](#): > > You can only have an exchange of viewpoints with people who do not share the same opinion… …and do not insult me by the same token. > [@Wadiest\_Yong](#): > > Buying extra stuff, not available in the normal flow is, by definition (not mine, search the web where it originated), pay2win Only I’m not good with definitions, you said so yourself, so I will ignore every definition under the sun and state that your definition of P2W is completely off base and has _nothing_ to do with EVE Online… ever. > [@Wadiest\_Yong](#): > > You seem eager to read that buying shortcuts for cash is not pay2win for whatever reason. That is something I cannot give you I didn’t ask for anything from you. > [@Wadiest\_Yong](#): > > if you feel hurt by that, there’s nothing I will do about that Don’t play innocent and insult me even more. You know exactly why I felt hurt. > [@Wadiest\_Yong](#): > > Suddenly, peace broke out Not thanks to you. ---
**Author:** ![Wadiest\_Yong](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wadiest_yong/32/426921_2.png) [@Wadiest\_Yong](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wadiest_Yong)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 10:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/440 "2023-09-23T22:58:16Z")
A fragile peace was broken unilaterally. > [@Sienna\_Massilia](#): > > You know exactly why I felt hurt. Sorry, not really. You found a cap lying around that fit you, you started wearing it and then decided you didn’t like the look. Then you decided it was my fault and came out all indignant. Buy all the sp you want, for any ship you want. Feel good about it, it’s your money and your time for a product you try to enjoy. I mean that ! Tell yourself quietly the buying is “pay2whatever” you want, but don’t assume you can rewrite definitions for the rest of us (here and in other games). ---
**Author:** ![DeMichael\_Crimson](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/demichael_crimson/32/514115_2.png) [@DeMichael\_Crimson](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/DeMichael_Crimson)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 10:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/441 "2023-09-23T22:58:24Z")
> [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > Your list is admirable…but I don’t see the point in goals who’s end result nobody but you knows about. If I make 100 trillion ISK, its of zero relevance to me if nobody knows I have 100 trillion ISK. This is why I care nothing for PvE and ‘winning’ against NPCs. I am competitive and the only Eve worth playing for me is one where other people can see that. It is otherwise not worth logging in. If you’re so knowledgeable about Eve, then you should know that for a long time players could see your character standings with Faction, Corp and Agents. Just because you can’t see it now doesn’t mean it’s not worth anything. Besides that, it doesn’t matter what others know or think, what matters is the goals you set and complete for yourself in the game. You keep talking about an uneven playing field which is completely untrue, eluding to not being able to quickly gain a bunch of ISK, SP’s, ships or even be a CEO of a Null Sec Alliance. If that’s what you really want then just whip out your Credit Card and do your ‘Pay2Progress’ option. Other than that, there’s nothing more to be said. ---
**Author:** ![Sienna\_Massilia](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sienna_massilia/32/390388_2.png) [@Sienna\_Massilia](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sienna_Massilia)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 11:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/442 "2023-09-23T23:06:06Z")
> [@Wadiest\_Yong](#): > > Sorry, not really. You found a cap lying around that fit you, you started wearing it and then decided you didn’t like the look. Then you decided it was my fault and came out all indignant Is that what it was? Well then, everything is fine. I’m over it. > [@Wadiest\_Yong](#): > > Buy all the sp you want, for any ship you want. Feel good about it, it’s your money and your time I’m glad you’re willing to acknowledge at least that. > [@Wadiest\_Yong](#): > > but don’t assume you can rewrite definitions for the rest of us I’m not good with definitions, you said so yourself, so I won’t be rewriting anything. You can sleep easy tonight knowing that your precious definitions are safe. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369.md?page=21) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369.md?page=23)