# The 'Pay To Win' Myth **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [September 8, 2023, 2:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369 "2023-09-08T14:03:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2023, 1:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/81 "2023-09-09T13:20:44Z")
> [@Karak\_Terrel](#): > > Somehow you convinced yourself that simply renaming things will fundamentally change what they are at their core. It doesn’t. > > “limited free trial + subscription game” is literally the same thing as “free 2 play game with paid tier”. The only difference is that one of this description lets you pretend that everything is fine, that EVE isn’t like all this other pay2win games out there you look down on. Your description of it is **truly absurd**. Nothing changed about the original subscription game. A free trial was _added_. Sheesh. If I sell my car for $10,000 and throw in my push bike for free…am I then selling an entire **free car** just because the advert says ’ bicycle thrown in for free '. That is the extent of the absurdity of your argument. ---
**Author:** ![Karak\_Terrel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/karak_terrel/32/373453_2.png) [@Karak\_Terrel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Karak_Terrel)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2023, 1:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/82 "2023-09-09T13:46:32Z")
> [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > A free trial was _added_. Oh it’s just a trial? That changes everything! I thought that alpha players are considered actual players and not just people trying the game out so they can decide if they want to actually play the game and subscribe. An easy mistake to make, since CCP literally advertises it as a free to play game. > [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > Nothing changed about the original subscription game. Oh a lot has changed. First of all: > [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > A free trial was _added_. And what you call “free trial” is called clone states by CCP, and is essentially two different classes of players on two completely different power levels that play together in the same sandbox. This did not exists before. When there was only the subscription there was only one power level. With the subscription model we paid money to access the game. We no longer pay for access to the game, you can access the game for free. Instead we pay for access to more power and more capabilities. That’s the reality of what this change did. It made EVE more pay2win (it already was because of PLEX) Calling it a “trial” to cope with that fact is so pitiful. You don’t truly expect that someone would actually buy that right? Or do you? Not even CCP would buy that, they don’t call alphas a “trial” they call it a free tier. Go to [https://www.eveonline.com/](https://www.eveonline.com/) and read. It says “play free”, and not “try free” ---
**Author:** ![Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ax_l_thorne/32/412835_2.png) [@Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ax_l_Thorne)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2023, 1:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/83 "2023-09-09T13:51:02Z")
> [@Vokan\_Narkar](#): > > EVE is undeniably pay2win game. If it’s the free trial alpha clone account that inherently gives the player a disadvantage, then the solution is simple. Get rid of it. Go back to a paid subscription model with a two week trial period. I’ll be honest, I hate the alpha clone shenanigans that CCP created here because it makes the game “look” like its pay2win. Honestly, I think the alphas should be locked out of any ship larger then cruisers, but have access to all tech 2 mods. If it’s PLEX, good luck with that. RMT would skyrocket if CCP removed it. But I think its ■■■■■■■■ that plex can pay for subscriptions. Skillpoints. I think the ability to extract and sell skillpoints is utter ■■■■■■■■. And this right here I can see being more pay2winish But here’s my hang up, what exactly are they paying to win at? It’s a sandbox. I won the game the moment I mastered the character creator and made a super sexy portrait. And I’m not being silly here. My goal was to master that thing. And that’s available for all accounts. So what is it that they are paying to win at? ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2023, 2:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/84 "2023-09-09T14:14:12Z")
> [@Karak\_Terrel](#): > > With the subscription model we paid money to access the game. We no longer pay for access to the game, you can access the game for free. Instead we pay for access to more power and more capabilities. That is just absolute nonsense that you keep repeating. There must be some kind of comprehension problem that somehow turns **the exact same paid subscription that existed before** into ’ more power and more capabilities’. I mean…if I go to a restaurant and they are all of a sudden offering ‘free pizza’ that consists of a little mini 3 inch pizza, does that mean that my usual large $12.50 pizza all of a sudden has ‘more topping and cheese’ on it ?? That is literally the equivalent of the very silly argument you are making. ---
**Author:** ![Lara\_Agnon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lara_agnon/32/377122_2.png) [@Lara\_Agnon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lara_Agnon)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2023, 2:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/85 "2023-09-09T14:40:49Z")
> [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > ![mh1gghyc6g2y](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/f/2/3/f23bf02ec8eb9042297e7f789d7ca283512d17b7.jpeg) This thread is proof he was correct at that assumption ---
**Author:** ![Anthony\_FatTony\_Amico](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anthony_fattony_amico/32/391106_2.png) [@Anthony\_FatTony\_Amico](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anthony_FatTony_Amico)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2023, 2:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/86 "2023-09-09T14:55:28Z")
> [@Ax\_l\_Thorne](#): > > The most ISK sitting in some dusty wallet never to be touched? Like that person who is worth 19 trillion ISK and asked if she should come back to EVE 😂 ---
**Author:** ![Elinore\_en\_Divalone](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elinore_en_divalone/32/507815_2.png) [@Elinore\_en\_Divalone](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elinore_en_Divalone)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2023, 3:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/87 "2023-09-09T15:03:06Z")
I think calling _anything_ **stupid** is a sign of ignorance. Ignorance is any mental lazyiness to dig deeper under the surface of reality and false assumption of always knowing better. If we followed ancient _scio me nihil scire_ we would never said a word of critique for the rest of our lifes 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ax_l_thorne/32/412835_2.png) [@Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ax_l_Thorne)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2023, 3:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/88 "2023-09-09T15:03:15Z")
Lady spank? Sure. I think she should give me that 19 trillion isk. I can put it to good use. ---
**Author:** ![Elinore\_en\_Divalone](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elinore_en_divalone/32/507815_2.png) [@Elinore\_en\_Divalone](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elinore_en_Divalone)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2023, 3:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/89 "2023-09-09T15:09:45Z")
How can you know it is not made up figure and story to trololol? A kind of New Eden’s urban legend? …or more prbly a scam? ---
**Author:** ![Vokan\_Narkar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vokan_narkar/32/326293_2.png) [@Vokan\_Narkar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vokan_Narkar)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/90 "2023-09-09T15:10:04Z")
> [@Ax\_l\_Thorne](#): > > If it’s the free trial alpha clone account that inherently gives the player a disadvantage, then the solution is simple. Get rid of it. Go back to a paid subscription model with a two week trial period. > > I’ll be honest, I hate the alpha clone shenanigans that CCP created here because it makes the game “look” like its pay2win. Honestly, I think the alphas should be locked out of any ship larger then cruisers, but have access to all tech 2 mods. This is the least of the “pay2win” mechanics really. Freemium concept is generally accepted by most players even if technically as @Karak_Terrel pointed out it is pay2win. CCP changed the payment model for this because they expected it will get them more players. Whether it worked or not, we can’t know. Personally I see the raw skillpoint packages as more problematic than alpha and omega and if you go to the core of it, then being able to sell PLEX on market for ISK to buy something that gives you more power is pay2win anyway. So it was always pay2win game, just not that aggressive as it is nowadays. But it still isn’t that bad. From what I heard from new players, but I only talked to few, that the game is pay2win didn’t bother anyone. 20€ monthly for what is offered on the other hand was. ---
**Author:** ![Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ax_l_thorne/32/412835_2.png) [@Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ax_l_Thorne)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2023, 3:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/91 "2023-09-09T15:13:50Z")
Okay, but what exactly are they paying to win for? I’ve asked this question to you and that other bloke, but neither of you have answered it. ---
**Author:** ![Vokan\_Narkar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vokan_narkar/32/326293_2.png) [@Vokan\_Narkar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vokan_Narkar)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2023, 3:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/92 "2023-09-09T15:18:58Z")
> [@Ax\_l\_Thorne](#): > > Okay, but what exactly are they paying to win for? Come on. Are you really swayed by the word “win” in the term too? It has nothing to do with win. The definition is very simple, if there is anything you can buy for real money that gives you more power it is called “pay to win”. Whether you can win the game, or not doesn’t matter. It is just how the term was \*named. The argument “you can’t win EVE is silly” because it can be used for every other game on the market, even the most predatory ones such as Diablo Immortal. Tell me, how can you win in Diablo Immortal then if you still believe this nonsense. And if you can’t win in diablo immortal, then why is the game generally considered as the most predatory p2w game on the market. And btw do you yourself consider Diablo Immortal a pay2win game? I am pretty sure that players playing that game feels the same as Altara and are using the exact same arguments to justify that the game they enjoy playing is **not** pay2win. ---
**Author:** ![Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ax_l_thorne/32/412835_2.png) [@Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ax_l_Thorne)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2023, 3:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/93 "2023-09-09T15:25:21Z")
> [@Vokan\_Narkar](#): > > Come on. Are you really swayed by the word “win” in the term too? Yes. Because: ![IMG_5377](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/f/d/d/fddd7d133cac6a58ef147ab4e511826285684e48.jpeg) Has a very specific definition. It’s not my problem that the people who defined pay2win did so, and did so poorly at it. What I think you’re on about is pay4advantage. That clearly defines what you your argument is about. I’ll agree that EvE is pay4advantage. But not pay2win. > [@Vokan\_Narkar](#): > > Tell me, how can you win in Diablo Immortal then if you still believe this nonsense. I wouldn’t know. I never played it. So no comment. But it seems you hate it. So, don’t play it I guess? Don’t give them your money? Sounds like something you’re going to have to work through. ---
**Author:** ![Vokan\_Narkar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vokan_narkar/32/326293_2.png) [@Vokan\_Narkar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vokan_Narkar)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2023, 3:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/94 "2023-09-09T15:35:03Z")
> [@Ax\_l\_Thorne](#): > > I wouldn’t know. I never played it. So no comment. But it seems you hate it. So, don’t play it I guess? Don’t give them your money? No I don’t care about that game. I am only using it as an example, because that game is generally extremely hated and slandered for its predatory lootbox based gambling pay2win mechanics. Yet it is mobile ARPG with no clear end so you can’t win the game anyway right? 😉 I tried Diablo 4, didn’t like it and I don’t play mobile games so no reason for me to play Diablo Immortal. If you want to project some emotions on me then, I guess you can say I hate mobile games, although it is not really a hate rather than disrespect. I have no problem with pay2win games. I am playing one of those myself 😃 . But if you have a need to persuade yourself and everyone else that EVE is not pay2win, then I wonder if it isn’t you who hates pay2win games then. Because otherwise why would you care whether EVE is or isn’t pay2win. ---
**Author:** ![Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ax_l_thorne/32/412835_2.png) [@Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ax_l_Thorne)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2023, 3:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/95 "2023-09-09T15:43:46Z")
I like EvE. It gets a bad wrap. I honestly don’t see it as a pay2win game. Well, not yet. But its inching closer each year. I definitely see it as a pay4advantage tho. But just because someone has an advantage doesn’t mean they will inherently win. I don’t really play mobile games. I find them severely lacking, for many different reasons. As for that diablo game. Again, I can’t comment on it because I know literally nothing about it, so making a comment on it would make me an ultracrepidarian. My biggest beef with EvE isn’t the skill points. Or the Plex. It’s the hypernet relay. It’s just plain gambling and I don’t think it has a place in this game or any other. But that’s my own beef. But I think I have a much better understanding of where you are coming from. It helps me to know where your viewpoint is coming from! ---
**Author:** ![Anthony\_FatTony\_Amico](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anthony_fattony_amico/32/391106_2.png) [@Anthony\_FatTony\_Amico](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anthony_FatTony_Amico)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2023, 3:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/96 "2023-09-09T15:56:42Z")
> [@Ax\_l\_Thorne](#): > > I definitely see it as a pay4advantage tho. But just because someone has an advantage doesn’t mean they will inherently win. This is more accurate. OP should have went with this. You can’t be a PTW game is there is no “WIN” in EVE. I don’t unlock a certain ship or kill x amount of ships and I win. Winning in a sandbox game is subjective. **You are absolutely correct. We pay for ADVANTAGES. aka more ISK, more SP, better modules, etc.** ---
**Author:** ![Karak\_Terrel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/karak_terrel/32/373453_2.png) [@Karak\_Terrel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Karak_Terrel)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2023, 4:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/97 "2023-09-09T16:05:41Z")
> [@Ax\_l\_Thorne](#): > > I definitely see it as a pay4advantage tho. But just because someone has an advantage doesn’t mean they will inherently win. This is what I don’t get about this discission. You agree that it is pay4advantage because it is a less loaded term than pay2win, even though almost everyone would tell you that is exactly what they mean by pay2win. You also probably didn’t think the whole argument that eve is not pay2win because you can’t “win” eve trough. Because if that is your view, then it can never become pay2win in the first place, no matter what CCP adds to the shop. You could still always make that very same argument. And yet you said: > [@Ax\_l\_Thorne](#): > > I honestly don’t see it as a pay2win game. Well, not yet. But its inching closer each year. Which is entierly inconsistent with the argumen that it isn’t pay2win because no one can “win”. How can they inch closer? Are they suddenly adding a win condition? This is why I say that this is mainy all cope by players who like the game but think calling it pay2win would give it a bad wrap. Yet all this does is give CCP more confidence that they can continue to dial up the monetization, destroying it even more in the process. ---
**Author:** ![Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ax_l_thorne/32/412835_2.png) [@Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ax_l_Thorne)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2023, 4:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/98 "2023-09-09T16:12:32Z")
> [@Karak\_Terrel](#): > > Which is entierly inconsistent with the argumen that it isn’t pay2win because no one can “win”. Two words Golden Ammo. Once CCP starts selling that, giving people who buy it a huge disparity in pvp, then I’ll say it’s a true p2w. Until then, it’s not. And I think you really should go back and reread what I wrote. I have been consistent in my argument. But nice try with the strawman. One day, you’ll get it right. But like yesterday, today is not that day for you. ---
**Author:** ![Karak\_Terrel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/karak_terrel/32/373453_2.png) [@Karak\_Terrel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Karak_Terrel)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2023, 4:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/99 "2023-09-09T16:20:47Z")
> [@Ax\_l\_Thorne](#): > > Two words > > Golden Ammo. > > Once CCP starts selling that, giving people who buy it a huge disparity in pvp, then I’ll say it’s a true p2w. > > Until then, it’s not. I believe you that in that instance you would start calling it pay2win. Everyone has their ‘line in the sand’ I guess. Yet somone else would still make the exact argument you did and pretend this is still pay4advantage because you can’t “win” eve. Also they litterally sell packs in the shop that give you implants with damage bonus that you can’t get otherwise in the game. They are also not tradable on the market. How is this not already “golden ammo”? Because it is not actually “ammo”? ---
**Author:** ![Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ax_l_thorne/32/412835_2.png) [@Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ax_l_Thorne)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2023, 4:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369/100 "2023-09-09T16:29:56Z")
> [@Karak\_Terrel](#): > > Yet somone else would still make the exact argument you did and pretend this is still pay4advantage because you can’t “win” eve. How is it pretending? I literally said, and you quoted, that its pay4advantage. Yes, it’s pay4advantage. Not pay2win because there is no set “win” criteria given by the game. What is so difficult for you to understand what “win” means? I’ll post it again ![IMG_5377](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/f/d/d/fddd7d133cac6a58ef147ab4e511826285684e48.jpeg) At this point, the argument has degraded into “semantics of definitions.” And you’re desperately clinging to this notion that pay2win = pay4advantage because there is no win criteria in the game. Your whole argument hinges on the fact that it’s “winning” in eve, when clearly it is not. > [@Karak\_Terrel](#): > > Also they litterally sell packs in the shop that give you implants with damage bonus that you can’t get otherwise in the game. They are also not tradable on the market. Is it enough of a bonus to ensure a 100% win rate against those that don’t have it? Because if it is, then it’s p2w. Otherwise its p4a. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369.md?page=4) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-pay-to-win-myth/419369.md?page=6)