# The Permanent Green Safety Brigade **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [April 25, 2022, 8:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-permanent-green-safety-brigade/359974 "2022-04-25T20:58:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![tutucox\_Khamsi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tutucox_khamsi/32/430743_2.png) [@tutucox\_Khamsi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/tutucox_Khamsi)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2022, 5:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-permanent-green-safety-brigade/359974/121 "2022-04-28T17:36:46Z")
> [@Mina\_Zealot](#): > > … and then lose it for quasi sure, then I don’t see the point of getting those items in the first place and hence I don’t see the point of even paying for anything. > It feels like payingnfor the privilege of losing it. If I want that I can go ask for a loan, buy a bunch of sh- and not repaybthe loan so they can come and take everything by Law. I don’t see the point of it. bu you will lose 20 milion in a t1 frig or destroyer i use t1 cruisers to they are relatively cheap i use pirate cruisers wen i get money because its fun, but eventually i loose 400 million because the stronger is yout ship more people come to fight it so the tools of the trade for low sec are frigates , destroyers t1 cruisers , the rest is for the lulz i use augoror to do station games in amarr and jita punishers and coercers and omens in low sec phantasms wen i want to flex i have 40 fitted coercers in my main base in low, if i die i reship , its not that expensive but you have to think that 40 x 20 million is 800 million , even poor pvp is kinda expensive , you need DST (expensive to) to make a base etc if you are going to travel use a t1 frigate, they can fight , but you want to travel if you want to fight in the area you use t1 frigs or destroyers because they are better short range cruisers like to cruise so if you want to roam , several jumps , use a t1 cruiser ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2022, 5:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-permanent-green-safety-brigade/359974/122 "2022-04-28T17:40:39Z")
> [@Mina\_Zealot](#): > > I’m not hoarding anything. I’m not asset-rich in the game. Maybe less than 2 billion. > My point is: if I’m going to lose time and/or money for stuff that’ll only use not even a minute to try to defend myself Gain and loss are functions of skill. Once you pass a certain skill/competence threshold, your confrontations generally aren’t going to go against your favor, or last under a minute. But you’ll never get to that point unless you shed your attachment to your assets, and start using them as tools to achieve an improved degree of competence. You are essentially getting caught in the carebear mental trap, in which you think that loss/expenditure will make you worse off than you are now, and as such needs to be avoided at all costs. You’re not yet realizing that the skills you’d gain are actually worth _more_ than however many billions of ISK you have in your wallet. And no, just fitting a bunch of cheap ships and going out somewhere to lose them in quick succession is _terrible_ advice. You’re not going to be able to Homer Simpson yourself into becoming a competent player just by standing there and taking punches. You have to learn how to deal damage with deadly intent. ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2022, 5:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-permanent-green-safety-brigade/359974/123 "2022-04-28T17:41:28Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > I can’t, because that’s fundamentally untrue. These people quite literally marched in the streets to get GTA removed from store shelves, and created an environment in which “participation medals” are a thing. There’s woke people and stuffy people in every single generation. I’ve been playing computer games since 1982…40 years. Even back then the stuffy people were protesting about games being the work of the Devil, etc, etc. I can recall a big fuss over Doom, which these days seems about as tame a game as it gets. You name it…just about every FPS game has had the stuffy brigade up in arms…and it continues to this day, and its not just people with Zimmer frames doing the protesting. In fact I’d argue the people with Zimmer frames are more likely to be those playing the games. ---
**Author:** ![Mina\_Zealot](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mina_zealot/32/305585_2.png) [@Mina\_Zealot](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mina_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2022, 5:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-permanent-green-safety-brigade/359974/124 "2022-04-28T17:43:00Z")
> [@tutucox\_Khamsi](#): > > bu you will lose 20 milion > in a t1 frig or destroyer I inly use Destroyers now, ever since I stopped paying for Omega. I have around 20 Destroyers right now and enough modules to fit them properly. Once thise ships are exploded I will no longer lognin. That would be my last step backwards regarding EVE. ---
**Author:** ![tutucox\_Khamsi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tutucox_khamsi/32/430743_2.png) [@tutucox\_Khamsi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/tutucox_Khamsi)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2022, 5:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-permanent-green-safety-brigade/359974/125 "2022-04-28T17:44:13Z")
> [@Mina\_Zealot](#): > > I inly use Destroyers now, ever since I stopped paying for Omega. > I have around 20 Destroyers right now and enough modules to fit them properly. > Once thise ships are exploded I will no longer lognin. That would be my last step backwards regarding EVE. if you loose 20 destroyers you will end way better in pvp you may like it so much that you will buy 20 more ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2022, 5:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-permanent-green-safety-brigade/359974/126 "2022-04-28T17:45:50Z")
> [@tutucox\_Khamsi](#): > > if you loose 20 destroyers you will end way better in pvp Not with _that_ attitude, no. They’ve already failed. Might as well stop logging in _now._ The only thing that can turn this around is performing some significant introspection and restructuring their entire system/hierarchy of motivation in the game. ---
**Author:** ![tutucox\_Khamsi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tutucox_khamsi/32/430743_2.png) [@tutucox\_Khamsi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/tutucox_Khamsi)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2022, 5:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-permanent-green-safety-brigade/359974/127 "2022-04-28T17:46:58Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > Not with _that_ attitude, no. yeah the atitude i will die and leave is bad but the old saying buy 20 ships and lose them is true ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2022, 5:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-permanent-green-safety-brigade/359974/128 "2022-04-28T17:49:11Z")
> [@tutucox\_Khamsi](#): > > but the old saying buy 20 ships and lose them is true It really isn’t either. This is how people who don’t know how to teach, or are too lazy to put in the time, try to teach other people. It offloads the responsibility for another person to a rote, mechanical act, like putting a child in front of the television so as not to have to actively parent them. Losing many ships in micro-fights in quick succession teaches _very few_ practical EVE skills. ---
**Author:** ![tutucox\_Khamsi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tutucox_khamsi/32/430743_2.png) [@tutucox\_Khamsi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/tutucox_Khamsi)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2022, 5:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-permanent-green-safety-brigade/359974/129 "2022-04-28T17:51:29Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > Losing many ships in micro-fights in quick succession teaches _very few_ practical EVE skills. naaaa my hands used to shake a lot now im at 50% hull like there is not a problem in the world i learned to control distance , to overheat to the limit , to fit etc having stupid fights and in the beginning i died 90% of the time im not talking about teaching a person , im talking about a person learning alone noobs overtank for example you learn that scram web prop is waaay more important etc wen that guy in a 3 milion merlin kill your 100 milion pirate frigate you begin to think , why? ---
**Author:** ![Shipwreck\_Jones](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/shipwreck_jones/32/274382_2.png) [@Shipwreck\_Jones](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Shipwreck_Jones)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2022, 5:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-permanent-green-safety-brigade/359974/130 "2022-04-28T17:54:02Z")
> [@Same\_Old\_Topics](#): > > Its a logical fallacy and you all know it. “Da ebil carebears” cant simultaneously be the best source of entertainment and also the worst thing to happen to the game. Huh, I can’t find where Gix said anything that could be interpreted as, “carebears are the best source of entertainment.” It’s almost like you’re trying to put words in his mouth so that you can then call him out on it. > [@Same\_Old\_Topics](#): > > They cant be “idiots” for you to “dunk on” and also be dasterdly clever masterminds working a shadow campaign to undermine _your_ game. Yeah… you do understand that player groups are not a monolith, right? Like, if I say that a lot of the low-effort, risk-adverse, bot-aspirant whinebears moved to sovnull during the age of empire building, it’s not then logically inconsistent for me to acknowledge that the blocs are home to some really great players. > [@Same\_Old\_Topics](#): > > the biggest whiney carebears in the history of the game are the ones pretending that theyre out there mining salt “for the good of the game” and crying when, inevitability, that ■■■■ is nerfed. Yeah, there’s a difference between voicing an opinion, complaining, and crying. But that sort of nuance isn’t going to stop people from using bad faith arguments to undermine your position. ## A brief lesson in framing **Example One:** - Someone’s complaints are consistent with your own. - Doesn’t matter if he’s mass spamming devs telling them to resign, spreading misinformation, and ranting -always frame him as giving valuable feedback to CCP. Bonus points if you then accuse CCP of not listening to the players. - If anyone calls him out for being a space karen, accuse them of toxic positivity. **Example Two:** - Someone’s complaints are inconsistent with you own. - Doesn’t matter how they say it, how constructive they are, or how they act in the forums or in game -frame it as crying. ![](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/0/d/5/0d5b07c024eb4364a45fddb396621ef2e0d96973.webp) Ugh, I can go on. But I need to run. ---
**Author:** ![Mina\_Zealot](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mina_zealot/32/305585_2.png) [@Mina\_Zealot](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mina_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2022, 5:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-permanent-green-safety-brigade/359974/131 "2022-04-28T17:56:16Z")
> [@tutucox\_Khamsi](#): > > if you loose 20 destroyers you will end way better in pvp I don’t care about being better or the best. I just want to play EVE, do whatever I like, y’know like a sandbox game. But if that means paying my meds away or spending all days/all nights grinding to buy ships AND pay for that privilege… LOL! Sorry, no. Just no. > [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > Gain and loss are functions of skill. Once you pass a certain skill/competence threshold, your confrontations generally aren’t going to go against your favor, or last under a minute Or… maybe I’m just bad at EVE. That’s certainly a possibility. > [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > But you’ll never get to that point unless you shed your attachment to your assets, and start using them as tools to achieve an improved degree of competence I have no attachment to pixels besides the fact that I paid for them. Unless you’re suggesting that I should not care about the things I spend my money/time on? Why shouldn’t I? Because it’s a game? I might as well send a monthly check to CCP for a $1000 every month and call it a day then. > [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > You are essentially getting caught in the carebear mental trap, in which you think that loss/expenditure will make you worse off than you are now No. I don’t think that. I simply think the game is too expensive for what it really is. I’ve played it fornthe better part of 5 years and it didn’t raise my skirt one bit. To the contrary, it pissed me off more than I had fun. > [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > the skills you’d gain are actually worth _more_ than however many billions of ISK you have in your wallet. I understand that. Yet, no isk no ship. > [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > You have to learn how to deal damage with deadly intent That’s been my plan since the beginning. I just don’t want to add up the coins and find out that I spent $20,000 on a game just to be able to say “Hey, look at my zKillboard!” I’m not that type of person. ---
**Author:** ![tutucox\_Khamsi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tutucox_khamsi/32/430743_2.png) [@tutucox\_Khamsi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/tutucox_Khamsi)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2022, 5:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-permanent-green-safety-brigade/359974/132 "2022-04-28T17:59:35Z")
> [@Mina\_Zealot](#): > > I don’t care about being better or the best. I just want to play EVE, do whatever I like, y’know like a sandbox game. > But if that means paying my meds away or spending all days/all nights grinding to buy ships AND pay for that privilege… LOL! Sorry, no. Just no. its fun , i used to make 3 billion a month doing FW , more than enough to pay my ships and my plex, nowadays im to lazy , thats why im poor, but i played for 10 years i admit im tired , i log in much less but if you are motivated you can have a lot of fun and buy your stuff solo doing what you like to do ---
**Author:** ![Mina\_Zealot](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mina_zealot/32/305585_2.png) [@Mina\_Zealot](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mina_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2022, 6:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-permanent-green-safety-brigade/359974/133 "2022-04-28T18:09:00Z")
> [@Shipwreck\_Jones](#): > > Huh, I can’t find where Gix said anything that could be interpreted as, “carebears are the best source of entertainment.” It’s almost like you’re trying to put words in his mouth so that you can then call him out on it No need to try and call out Gix. He makes his positions very clear. I hope he’s happy about all the players he pushed away from the game, telling them they are no good at EVE and might as well quit. Maybe he can think of that when he looks for targets and there are none. But knowing him, he’d laugh and say “Good! Those players aren’t needed in EVE” and while that may be true, I then wonder why y’all are always talking about Player Retention. You obviously don’t care about that. Unless you mean a specific type of players are welcome and not others. Then it’s time to make a call to HR and start hiring Capsuleers. ---
**Author:** ![tutucox\_Khamsi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tutucox_khamsi/32/430743_2.png) [@tutucox\_Khamsi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/tutucox_Khamsi)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2022, 6:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-permanent-green-safety-brigade/359974/134 "2022-04-28T18:11:45Z")
one day i was in a omen a CSM dude + one friend attacked me in amamake , i killed him , the friend bailed , there is no better feeling last month ii was coming back from a frustrated null sec hunt a dude in a gnosis pointed me in ls entrance , i killed him , thats what makes eve fun for me i killed dudes with 2k solo kills , famous dudes , 2v1 , 3v1 , i lived the life i have lots of good moments i died A LOT to but i don’t care i did almost all activities in eve i did incursion , alliances , fw, wormhole , mining , market … not much planing , just did it , and learned doing ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2022, 6:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-permanent-green-safety-brigade/359974/135 "2022-04-28T18:12:42Z")
> [@Mina\_Zealot](#): > > I have no attachment to pixels besides the fact that I paid for them. That is attachment, and one of the worst kinds too. > [@Mina\_Zealot](#): > > Unless you’re suggesting that I should not care about the things I spend my money/time on? Context is important. In the context of EVE, no, you shouldn’t. > [@Mina\_Zealot](#): > > Why shouldn’t I? Because it’s a game? Correct. > [@Mina\_Zealot](#): > > I might as well send a monthly check to CCP for a $1000 every month and call it a day then. This is just needless exaggeration. You can _sustainably_ play for $15-30 a month, or less than that (depending on how much money grind you’re willing to tolerate), without worrying about losses. > [@Mina\_Zealot](#): > > No. I don’t think that. I simply think the game is too expensive for what it really is. I’ve played it fornthe better part of 5 years and it didn’t raise my skirt one bit. If you’ve played for 5+ years and have less than 2 billion ISK in assets, then either you’re playing rarely and/or in very small time increments, or you’re doing something _terribly_ wrong, because even without a concerted effort to grow your wealth, you should’ve accumulated **much** more than that over half a decade. We’re talking about a sum that’s equivalent to like 40-50 hours of level 4 mission-running, or maybe 100 hours of mining. Where is the money going? How do you only have 20 destroyers after 5 years in the game? ---
**Author:** ![Mina\_Zealot](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mina_zealot/32/305585_2.png) [@Mina\_Zealot](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mina_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2022, 6:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-permanent-green-safety-brigade/359974/136 "2022-04-28T18:21:42Z")
> [@tutucox\_Khamsi](#): > > but if you are motivated you can have a lot of fun and buy your stuff solo doing what you like to do I was motivated about 5 years ago when I picked up this game and did go solo as well as be with several corporations. I became disillusioned when CCP started to go against their own players, nerfing left and right and inventing more things to create _destruction_, their main bread’n’butter. I knew then that playing EVE as Omega was a fool’s errand and stopped paying for Omega about a year into the game. I’ve tried to have fun since then but ratting has become stale, never liked mining, industry is too expensive ( BP’s prices aren’t nuts, they’re out to Pluto! ), PI is also too expensive, Exploration is ok but not enough to keep me entertained and PvP is also too expensive. So I thought I’d get back into my money with some Alpha clone fun until the ships dry out and then it’s bye-bye EVE. ---
**Author:** ![tutucox\_Khamsi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tutucox_khamsi/32/430743_2.png) [@tutucox\_Khamsi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/tutucox_Khamsi)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2022, 6:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-permanent-green-safety-brigade/359974/137 "2022-04-28T18:24:45Z")
> [@Mina\_Zealot](#): > > I became disillusioned when CCP started to go against their own players, nerfing left and right most of my money i lost to plex 10 years i payed to play the first 3 months thing change , and you have to adapt to make money in different ways if you really want money buy a battleship and go make incursions its easy money , i had a super nice group , it was fun because people were fun wen they disbanded i stoped because its almost like cheating nowadays is everything automatic , you go to a web site , enter a queue , they call you wen its your time baby eazy ---
**Author:** ![Mina\_Zealot](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mina_zealot/32/305585_2.png) [@Mina\_Zealot](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mina_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2022, 6:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-permanent-green-safety-brigade/359974/138 "2022-04-28T18:29:29Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > If you’ve played for 5+ years and have less than 2 billion ISK in assets, then either you’re playing rarely and/or in very small time increments Yes, small increments. A few hours at a time. I can’t stare at a screen for more than a few hours everyday. My eyes are getting really bad and I’d rather go walk in nature to marvel at God’s creation than stare at a screen because I would feel obligated otherwise I can’t buy this ship by that time to be able to do that… feels like a job. I’m retired. I don’t work anymore, much less pay to work, lol, and that’s what grind is. > [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > Where is the money going? How do you only have 20 destroyers after 5 years in the game? I reprocessed/sold everything I had that I knew I wouldn’t need to play as Alpha. I have a few billions isk and I’m still trying to figure out what I’ll do with it once the ships are gone. Surely buy more ships with the remaining isk but no more grind nor buying PLEX for me anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2022, 6:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-permanent-green-safety-brigade/359974/139 "2022-04-28T18:41:17Z")
> [@Mina\_Zealot](#): > > Yes, small increments. A few hours at a time. A few hours at a time isn’t “small increments.” > [@Mina\_Zealot](#): > > I would feel obligated otherwise I can’t buy this ship by that time to be able to do that… feels like a job. I’m retired. I don’t work anymore, much less pay to work, lol, and that’s what grind is. This is an economic sim MMO. You can either put in some work/effort to achieve progress, or pay for someone else to do it for you. If you don’t want to make money in-game, and you don’t want to pay for the game, then you’re playing the wrong game, and should probably stop playing it. Which is _ **fine** _, but you should stop playing it _for the right reasons._ The reason you quoted before, mainly that everything is so “expensive,” is _not_ the right reason, because it’s rooted in a fundamental misunderstanding of how the economy functions. When things in-game are more expensive, that means that engaging in activities that produce those things makes you _more_ profit/progress. Your true issue with the game isn’t that stuff is more expensive, because you’re very much able to engage in aspects of the economy that take advantage of various financial opportunities by becoming a producer of said expensive items; your issue is that you don’t _ **want** _ to interact with the game and its players in this manner. That’s not the game’s fault, or the game’s developers’ fault—it’s _your_ fault for playing a game that you don’t actually have much interest in. ---
**Author:** ![Mina\_Zealot](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mina_zealot/32/305585_2.png) [@Mina\_Zealot](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mina_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2022, 6:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-permanent-green-safety-brigade/359974/140 "2022-04-28T18:43:09Z")
> [@tutucox\_Khamsi](#): > > if you really want money buy a battleship and go make incursions > its easy money , i had a super nice group , it was fun because people were fun I don’t want isk. I don’t care about bragging about my zKillboard but I do care about having fun on a game. If incursions are fun I’ll give it a shot. And yes, the EVE community is something I’ll miss. It’s such a shame that a unique game like EVE is being treated as vulgarly as a cash cow. I’m sad about that. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-permanent-green-safety-brigade/359974.md?page=6) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-permanent-green-safety-brigade/359974.md?page=8)