# The real reasons player population is declining **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [January 16, 2018, 5:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517 "2018-01-16T17:54:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Scipio\_Artelius](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scipio_artelius/32/408264_2.png) [@Scipio\_Artelius](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scipio_Artelius)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2018, 4:33am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517/364 "2018-03-08T04:33:01Z")
> [@Ima\_Wreckyou](#): > > Except that CCP is not MacDonalds and EVE is not a happy-meal. It’s more like [Ray Kroc](https://www.cnet.com/news/the-founder-review-michael-keaton-mcdonalds-true-story/) 🙃 ---
**Author:** ![Mike\_Azariah](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mike_azariah/32/512626_2.png) [@Mike\_Azariah](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mike_Azariah)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2018, 6:14am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517/365 "2018-03-08T06:14:33Z")
Out of curiousity (since I am not running for office or anything) How many of the wardec supporters actually think that the system is perfect the way it is? How many think it could be improved? If you are in the latter camp, how would you improve it? It is easy for victims to complain (mice always want to bell the cat) but when the deccers start saying there is something wrong I believe it may be time to listen. The best people IRL who argue nature conservation are the hunters. They know that they do not want to see their hobby end and do what they can to keep the wilds thriving and the prey plentiful. m ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2018, 6:31am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517/366 "2018-03-08T06:31:58Z")
> [@Mike\_Azariah](#): > > The best people IRL who argue nature conservation are the hunters. They know that they do not want to see their hobby end and do what they can to keep the wilds thriving and the prey plentiful. Players do not think about preservation when hunting, same as animal hunters. There are no rules to engagement other than what CCP wants. Every situation will be exploited to its full extend. We may be knowing what is going on, but being a hunter cant help it, and who even is a hunter? Its just bunch of nerds wanting destruction. If anything will help its extinction of hunters together with diminished prey. Look at whale hunting. Look at cod populations. If anything, humans cant help themselves, even when some of them want. ---
**Author:** ![Mike\_Azariah](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mike_azariah/32/512626_2.png) [@Mike\_Azariah](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mike_Azariah)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2018, 6:45am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517/367 "2018-03-08T06:45:50Z")
Fair point, we do tend to kill to extinction, given a chance. But those voices that suggest otherwise, that try to stop the trend, them I want to hear from. Not all are bent on complete destruction . . . tho I will admit most may be. m ---
**Author:** ![Ima\_Wreckyou](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ima_wreckyou/32/235531_2.png) [@Ima\_Wreckyou](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ima_Wreckyou)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2018, 6:55am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517/368 "2018-03-08T06:55:36Z")
> [@Mike\_Azariah](#): > > but when the deccers start saying there is something wrong I believe it may be time to listen. Wardecers say for years that wardecs need a serious overhaul and CCP does not care at all. Ask @Ralph_King-Griffin , he may point you to the relevant threads. ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2018, 6:59am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517/369 "2018-03-08T06:59:11Z")
> [@Ima\_Wreckyou](#): > > CCP does not care at all In this all of EVE players may feel united actually. 😂 ---
**Author:** ![Mike\_Azariah](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mike_azariah/32/512626_2.png) [@Mike\_Azariah](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mike_Azariah)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2018, 7:00am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517/370 "2018-03-08T07:00:52Z")
I have probably read most of them. Commented in some m ---
**Author:** ![Johnt\_Vaille](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/johnt_vaille/32/58199_2.png) [@Johnt\_Vaille](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Johnt_Vaille)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2018, 7:19am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517/371 "2018-03-08T07:19:55Z")
> [@Auto-da-fe](#): > > The numbers of subscribers do NOT reflect the number that is being retained. That’s why I always been thinking CCP should focus on “old” players rather than newcomers. Lowering a barrier for newcomers? Well “old” players are those who would help them to do that - that would be true community spirit. And any “The Agency” and “Tutorials” and “Opportunities” would become unnecessary then. ---
**Author:** ![Choc\_talar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/choc_talar/32/359177_2.png) [@Choc\_talar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Choc_talar)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2018, 7:25am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517/372 "2018-03-08T07:25:17Z")
> [@Memphis\_Baas](#): > > it’s just that the high-sec crowd is so apathetic and unorganized that they don’t do anything about it. I have to agree here. I have lived in High Sec many times. The reasons I seek to leave high sec is that no corps in high band together and work together. I hate playing alone so I would rather choose Null and a good group to play with; I just returned to Eve after an period away and the first thing I did was begin reaching out to Null corps to find a home. High sec has far too much I just want to play alone and be left alone, yet High Sec is full of players who could make a difference by playing together. Take 30 little 8 man corps and make one 240 man corp. Band a few of these corps together into a High Sec Alliance. Still have mining fleets but at the same time have some protection fleets. Gankers don’t attack because group is large and working together. Want to freighter some stuff through Eve move with friends, some scouting, some to fly protection, make the “EVIL” doers work for their fun. If High Sec would ever work together, holy ■■■■ would they be a force to be reckoned with. When I started Eve I got ganked a few times but I learned from the experience. One of the first decent corps I ever flew with was joined after getting ganked by a member. We started bantering back and forth (in a friendly manner since I wasn’t mad, accepting it as part of the game). We became friends and I joined him and learned so much more about Eve and flew for awhile with a good bunch of people who though they once ganked me were really nice people IRL and a hoot to play with. I have never ganked anybody myself, that’s just not me but I’m not against anybody playing Eve their way. The biggest problem with High Sec is the High Sec mentality of non cooperation. ---
**Author:** ![Remiel\_Pollard](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/remiel_pollard/32/242272_2.png) [@Remiel\_Pollard](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Remiel_Pollard)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2018, 7:27am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517/373 "2018-03-08T07:27:00Z")
I’ve stated numerous times throughout the last few years that high sec wardecs are only as meaningful as the corps involved. Without meaning in the corp, there’s no meaning in the dec, and without meaning for wardecs, you get what we have now. The mercenary profession has no real meat to it because the corp’s they’re shooting are usually incredibly pointless to begin with. Wardecs get fixed when corps get fixed. When corporations have a real reason to exist in highsec, with less reasons for people to bail on them, even with the wardecs, then the wardecs themselves become not just more meaningful, but riskier endeavours in general. Additionally, the more focus an aggressor has to put into one wardec, the less wardecs they have time to engage in. ---
**Author:** ![Piugattuk](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/piugattuk/32/292316_2.png) [@Piugattuk](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Piugattuk)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2018, 7:32am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517/374 "2018-03-08T07:32:13Z")
> [@Captain\_Bastard](#): > > It is possible to change all this, and make Eve Online greater than it ever was, but that would require true ethics, and sacrifice, but unfortunately, that is not the kind of people they are. I believe you have been infected by the anti human virus, I was infected long ago, see there is no cure, no vaccines, no medical treatment, when you come to understand how humans are inside you understand why human do the things they do, goonswarm, code, and others they are typical humans, they like to make others squirm, it’s not that they are intending to be evil but humans are at their core malevolent. This game offers an outlet, they can do things unthinkable in real life, see they do understand that if they did these thing in real life that the consequences for their deeds would see swift action, so because of fear of consequences they behave, most of them long ago decided that what they do online does not reflect who they are in real life, but see this mostly refers to **code** because they are the main parties in eve doing the same activity day in and day out, is it within the mechanics, mostly, is it within the eula, it certainly pushes it, I understand sure gank can be fun a few times, but what those of **code** know is they are playing this role to the hilt, ever pushing further and further, but even if they stopped there would be another set of folks there to take their place, the problem never was goonswarm or code, it is simply that humans are at their core malevolent, humans are lazy, humans tend to go for the lowest denominator, and those groups or players that do these things you refer to, there is no need to get mad or feel anything towards them, they are just flies buzzing around, I say this not as an insult but because they are incapable of grasping how and what they do does effect those that are not looking for that type of interaction however I also understand that it is part of the game, but, when you carry on as long as they have with the same antics year after year its no longer a game, it’s a way of life, it’s all they have, it’s all they know, but as I said they may be smart, but understanding why others just don’t want real life interaction is something that escapes them, it takes work and humans are too lazy. As far as CCP, its just a business, nothing personal, its just about keeping the lights on and the people paid, they don’t dislike this or that player as a whole but the GM’s, DEV’s, etc of CCP will ride the gravy train as long as possible, it is their reality, and Iceland isn’t a country full of open jobs, there are limited positions there and they are just trying like everyone else to squeeze what they can out of it. ---
**Author:** ![Scipio\_Artelius](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scipio_artelius/32/408264_2.png) [@Scipio\_Artelius](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scipio_Artelius)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2018, 7:46am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517/375 "2018-03-08T07:46:45Z")
> [@Mike\_Azariah](#): > > How many of the wardec supporters actually think that the system is perfect the way it is? > > How many think it could be improved? No, not perfect by a long way. Lots of ways it can be improved. As a non-wardeccer (have never declared war in the game and it isn’t my style of play), I’m still very much in favour of opportunities for all styles of gameplay, including the opportunity for players that find wardeccing entertaining. So in favour of the wardec mechanics existing, but there are lots of opportunities to change it that make it more entertaining for everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Kannibal\_Kane](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kannibal_kane/32/83992_2.png) [@Kannibal\_Kane](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kannibal_Kane)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2018, 7:58am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517/376 "2018-03-08T07:58:10Z")
As a returning player with a 2month old char 50mil SP… I love skill injectors. 😚 ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Razpataz](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lord_razpataz/32/266831_2.png) [@Lord\_Razpataz](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lord_Razpataz)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2018, 8:14am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517/377 "2018-03-08T08:14:42Z")
> [@Mike\_Azariah](#): > > How many of the wardec supporters actually think that the system is perfect the way it is? > How many think it could be improved? There’s a few that think everything is ok, that is mostly the wardeccers who are the top dog at this very moment. But the majority of the wardec community see the problems we have and think it should be improved. (A lot of them have already given up fighting for their gameplay and have stopped playing.) > [@Mike\_Azariah](#): > > If you are in the latter camp, how would you improve it? > > It is easy for victims to complain (mice always want to bell the cat) but when the deccers start saying there is something wrong I believe it may be time to listen. The best people IRL who argue nature conservation are the hunters. They know that they do not want to see their hobby end and do what they can to keep the wilds thriving and the prey plentiful. > > m The hunters in highsec has complained for years about the state of the community, and **really** spoken out the last two years after CCP removed their main tool for hunting. All to deaf [ears](https://forums-archive.eveonline.com/message/6718524/#post6718524)… Now the CSM is suggestion tying wars with structures, and the rest of the community have also got worried. If your interested to know, here’s my [suggestion](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1FL0FW0aVAtr55tR84xGPB4zk0JJs6rjbvqppuJeIOyY) how to fix Wars. No magic pill, just iterations and time will fix the issues we are facing. ---
**Author:** ![Mike\_Azariah](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mike_azariah/32/512626_2.png) [@Mike\_Azariah](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mike_Azariah)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2018, 10:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517/378 "2018-03-08T22:31:58Z")
I had read the suggestion when it was linked earlier. It would need a lot of work, here and there, to cover some of the loopholes possible. Spies, for example, could easily skew n isk comparison to extend or end a war (in your winning conditions) m ---
**Author:** ![Ralph\_King-Griffin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ralph_king-griffin/32/252855_2.png) [@Ralph\_King-Griffin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ralph_King-Griffin)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2018, 11:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517/379 "2018-03-08T23:21:51Z")
Spies are opportunistic at best and not viable at least. Its one thing to do to a corp that allows it to happen but if they’re that easy to manipulate there’s a good chance you wouldn’t need the spies in the first place. The corps you _actually want_ to have one in are more often than not impractically difficult to do in the first place and damn near impossible to get one in “on demand” so to speak. If you’re up for it we poked toxic enough to get the discord into better shape, drac is one of the mods. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Razpataz](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lord_razpataz/32/266831_2.png) [@Lord\_Razpataz](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lord_Razpataz)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2018, 1:57am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517/380 "2018-03-09T01:57:58Z")
> [@Mike\_Azariah](#): > > I had read the suggestion when it was linked earlier. It would need a lot of work, here and there, to cover some of the loopholes possible. Spies, for example, could easily skew n isk comparison to extend or end a war (in your winning conditions) > > m Thanks for taking the time to read it. I’m very interested to hear more about those loopholes you mention and I would also like to see you in the wardec-project discord if your interested. IMHO think _“fight to win/end the war”_ makes more sense than _“kill the structure to win/end the war”_ and would be a better _win condition_. In my eyes, a loophole that makes you sacrifice more than you already have lost to extend a war is ok. And if a bear manages to put a spy into a wardeccing group, good for him. He deserves to have the war end for his efforts. ---
**Author:** ![Piugattuk](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/piugattuk/32/292316_2.png) [@Piugattuk](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Piugattuk)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2018, 2:51am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517/381 "2018-03-09T02:51:42Z")
\0 -hello Kane, your back huh, are you still doing merc work or coming in with other intentions like maybe mining 😁 ---
**Author:** ![Galaxy\_Pig](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/galaxy_pig/32/374625_2.png) [@Galaxy\_Pig](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Galaxy_Pig)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2018, 3:54am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517/382 "2018-03-09T03:54:29Z")
> [@DeMichael\_Crimson](#): > > This game is now basically F2P and P2W that’s aimed at the Instant Gratification crowd. Yeahh, you don’t actually know what these terms mean. Just like you didn’t actually know how CONCORD works, but you went around commenting on it anyway, then you had to be taught the basics of the mechanic. How embarrassing for you. Out of all the posters who are constantly blah blah blahing in every topic, you are one of the worst informed. ---
**Author:** ![Mike\_Azariah](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mike_azariah/32/512626_2.png) [@Mike\_Azariah](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mike_Azariah)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2018, 4:25am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517/383 "2018-03-09T04:25:20Z")
Ok, let us start with the win condition. How would you determine the ‘isk war’ balance, by raw hulls or include fittings? Does a tie go to the defender or the aggressor? If defender then we are back to turtling up and ending the war automatically after one week. The cooldown period of a war is a nice idea but the aggressors will be able to do what the defenders do today, switch to secondary corp and war it again, rinse repeat as need be. A more general cooldown would have 'bears deck themselves and the cancel just to have grace periods Wait-list was removed because it provided too much free intel for anyone who wanted it. I do not think you would have much success in bringing it back. Corp jumping? I think more often than not it is corp leaving. But have you considered that from the other side? One cannot join a corp who initiates a wardec without a grace period. This would stop the trick of dec with one man corps then bulk it up after (yes I have seen that done) It would have the negative effect of making the large organizations that are ALWAYS unable to change numbers quickly. (You decide if this is good or bad) I Note that you did not include some of the classics from other threads, new limits on the number of decs that you have or a sliding scale of cost dependent on how many decs are already active, each successive one costing more. that is first pass through, what do you think? do I ask more questions than I have answers? of course I do m [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517.md?page=18) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517.md?page=20)