# The real reasons player population is declining **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [January 16, 2018, 5:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517 "2018-01-16T17:54:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![Yasique\_Gautier](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/yasique_gautier/32/243905_2.png) [@Yasique\_Gautier](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Yasique_Gautier)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 7:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517/424 "2018-03-29T19:45:44Z")
1663 days there were NO dragons in high-sec in belts. I ratted in low some, but I was ready to lose the ship, I knew beforehand whats waiting for me, I know d-scan is friend, local chat is friend, but this time it was way too much unexpected and there was no way to learn a lesson without losing my ship. It was a trap with evil intent. I dont like it being “guided” to whatever CCP thinks is best for me. It is I who must and will decide what to do, when, and where. If CCP takes away my freedom to choose myself, then good luck and goodbye. ---
**Author:** ![Wavemistress\_Moidel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wavemistress_moidel/32/211447_2.png) [@Wavemistress\_Moidel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wavemistress_Moidel)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 7:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517/425 "2018-03-29T19:51:04Z")
Giz ya stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Yasique\_Gautier](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/yasique_gautier/32/243905_2.png) [@Yasique\_Gautier](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Yasique_Gautier)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 7:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517/426 "2018-03-29T19:57:51Z")
Let us not going too far from topic. I mentioned my case just to illustrate reaction of local playerbase to my loss, and it proved OP is right. There is absolutely NO need to be cynical sarcastic etc, I just dont understand it. ---
**Author:** ![Yasique\_Gautier](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/yasique_gautier/32/243905_2.png) [@Yasique\_Gautier](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Yasique_Gautier)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 8:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517/428 "2018-03-29T20:26:09Z")
Maybe I should start a Movement, what do you think? Voices of high-sec miners must be heard by CCP, clearly and loudly, just like that Jita you know what 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Sindara\_T\_Soni](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sindara_t_soni/32/242945_2.png) [@Sindara\_T\_Soni](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sindara_T_Soni)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 8:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517/429 "2018-03-29T20:39:58Z")
> [@Yasique\_Gautier](#): > > just like that Jita you know what So … Mine Jita? I guess you try to blockade the Jita undock with Orcas or something like that? ---
**Author:** ![LouHodo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/louhodo/32/109593_2.png) [@LouHodo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/LouHodo)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 8:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517/430 "2018-03-29T20:41:22Z")
> [@Yasique\_Gautier](#): > > It will take weeks to mine for a new Mackinaw for what, to lose it again someday. So you are telling me that you have played EVE for 1633+ days, and cant afford a second Mackinaw. Currently going for 280mil in Jita 4-4. What in the heck are you doing with your ore? Stashing it away for a rainy day? Jet canning it and leaving it because digging holes in rocks is fun? If you have been mining for nearly 4 years, you should have at least 1 bil isk if not several. > [@Yasique\_Gautier](#): > > Yes I was vigilant all the time until yesterday, but there were no means for me to know that ganker npcs warp-scram and too thick to fend off with drones; is there any other way to learn, not by losing valuables and then mine for weeks? Obviously you weren’t. If you saw the NPC ships jump on grid, you should have already been aligned and jumped out. Do you know the difference between a successful miner and a unsuccessful miner. -A successful miner always has an escape plan, and is aligned as soon as they get started mining. -Unsuccessful miners do exactly what you did. Oh and you broke rule number 1 of EVE, DONT FLY WHAT YOU CANT AFFORD. ---
**Author:** ![Yasique\_Gautier](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/yasique_gautier/32/243905_2.png) [@Yasique\_Gautier](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Yasique_Gautier)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 9:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517/431 "2018-03-29T21:24:14Z")
I was partially stashing ore in starbases all around sector waiting for my reprocessing skills to give me most of my hard work then I could do industry, and partially selling to buy stuff; atm I’m a little bit broke and cannot replace losses right now. There were no need for escape plans or aligning becasue rats was weak; now they arent. This “feature” is badly arranged because a) I was unable to know about dangers beforehand, otherwise I would make preparations, b) there was no chance to escape since gankers npcs warp-scram my ship. Before I broke any rules, CCP broke even more fundamental rule, that was there maybe even before any of CCPs was born: “Ownership is key You have to give players a sense of ownership in the game. This is what will make them stay–it is a “barrier to departure.” Social bonds are not enough, because good social bonds extend outside the game. Instead, it is context. If they can build their own buildings, build a character, own possessions, hold down a job, feel a sense of responsibility to something that cannot be removed from the game–then you have ownership.” > **[The Laws of Online World Design](https://www.raphkoster.com/games/laws-of-online-world-design/the-laws-of-online-world-design/)** > > These are taken from both experience and from the writings of others. Most are the sort of “Duh” things that many who have done this sort of game design take for granted, but others may… And it doesnt matter what others say, if I bought it - its my property. ---
**Author:** ![Solstice\_Projekt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/solstice_projekt/32/503293_2.png) [@Solstice\_Projekt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Solstice_Projekt)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 9:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517/432 "2018-03-29T21:27:01Z")
My thought was: ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/2/9/2907264266310e8221ce2e0f9a495ae15ca7865f.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Solstice\_Projekt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/solstice_projekt/32/503293_2.png) [@Solstice\_Projekt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Solstice_Projekt)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 9:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517/433 "2018-03-29T21:29:46Z")
> [@Yasique\_Gautier](#): > > And it doesnt matter what others say, if I bought it - its my property. No. You have no legal right to any of this, and therefore your opinion is irrelevant. This is not real life and you should talk to a professional about this. ---
**Author:** ![Yasique\_Gautier](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/yasique_gautier/32/243905_2.png) [@Yasique\_Gautier](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Yasique_Gautier)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 9:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517/434 "2018-03-29T21:35:40Z")
Ok, if I bought it - its my **ingame** property, looks better now? ---
**Author:** ![QuakeGod](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/quakegod/32/480339_2.png) [@QuakeGod](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/QuakeGod)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 9:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517/435 "2018-03-29T21:44:10Z")
There are still normal, weak, belt rats that you are used to. However, there are also now FOB rats that patrol the belts that are particularly nasty. I’ve been caught by them a couple of times, but I fly a well-tanked Skiff with tons of drones. Just target the one scramming you, destroy it, then warp out. Flying a Mackinaw anywhere in high sec is not a very good idea in general. If you are wanting to mine in relative “safety”, a tanked Procurer or tanked Skiff is the only way to go. Of course, not being AFK and paying attention helps as well… ---
**Author:** ![Yasique\_Gautier](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/yasique_gautier/32/243905_2.png) [@Yasique\_Gautier](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Yasique_Gautier)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 10:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517/436 "2018-03-29T22:00:32Z")
Yes, I will do some arrangements in order not to fall into this trap again. I just dont understand why CCP decided to present a new feature to me in worst possible way. ---
**Author:** ![Scipio\_Artelius](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scipio_artelius/32/408264_2.png) [@Scipio\_Artelius](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scipio_Artelius)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 10:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517/437 "2018-03-29T22:09:09Z")
> [@Yasique\_Gautier](#): > > I mentioned my case just to illustrate reaction of local playerbase to my loss, and it proved OP is right. “Right” is not the right word. It doesn’t prove him right. His views on morality, fairness, etc. and what the community is, are his views, and from that perspective, he’s totally entitled to them. However, his views of those things aren’t be definition “right”. They are just one set of possible views, all of which are ok. So just because many of us share a different view, we aren’t somehow wrong. Just different and that’s part of the greatness of EVE. There is diversity and that diversity is part of the conflict drivers. The game would be lesser without it. ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 10:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517/438 "2018-03-29T22:17:21Z")
> [@Yasique\_Gautier](#): > > I can say only for myself, pressing to drive me from high to low/null sec will result in driving me off the game at all. I just dont like being paranoid all the time. I never participated in PvP, not a single fight, I’m not a masochist and will not present myself to wheoever out there is seeking for conflicts, I just dont like it, science and industry is my style, to create things instead of destroying, because PvP is awlays a “zero sum game”, if someone wins - other always lose, and I dont like to contribute to increasing of sad feelings because there is plenty of it without me. Eve is not for everyone now including me, but it was “for me too” just fine all these years. I think you have selected the wrong game. This is a competitive game and you cannot exempt yourself from competition. You either accept this and deal with it as you best see fit, or you move on. In the sense that PvP is player-on-player competition even mining can be considered PvP under this definition. > [@Yasique\_Gautier](#): > > And yes, I was relaxing for 1633 days until yesterday. Yes, that is my ship anywhere, I bougth it, its my property. Yes I was vigilant all the time until yesterday, but there were no means for me to know that ganker npcs warp-scram and too thick to fend off with drones; is there any other way to learn, not by losing valuables and then mine for weeks? That is the way most people learn in this game. You lose a ship and then have to figure out what you did wrong and how not make the same mistake(s). You can also go look for other resources such as the forums here, EVE University has a website, reading patch notes, etc. And for crying out loud you played for 1,633 days without a loss and this is your reaction? You are this upset? > [@Yasique\_Gautier](#): > > 1663 days there were NO dragons in high-sec in belts. I ratted in low some, but I was ready to lose the ship, I knew beforehand whats waiting for me, I know d-scan is friend, local chat is friend, but this time it was way too much unexpected and there was no way to learn a lesson without losing my ship. So CCP changes the game and you decide to remain largely ignorant of CCP’s up coming changes…and CCP is to blame? Yeah…whatever. > [@Yasique\_Gautier](#): > > Let us not going too far from topic. I mentioned my case just to illustrate reaction of local playerbase to my loss, and it proved OP is right. There is absolutely NO need to be cynical sarcastic etc, I just dont understand it. It isn’t a very reasonable reaction though. You lost a ship…accept it, learn from it and move on…or quit and uninstall the game. > [@Yasique\_Gautier](#): > > I was partially stashing ore in starbases all around sector waiting for my reprocessing skills to give me most of my hard work then I could do industry, and partially selling to buy stuff; atm I’m a little bit broke and cannot replace losses right now. You are not broke, you are illiquid. Sell some your assets and buy a new ship and HTFU. Also, do not fly a ship you cannot afford to lose. > [@Yasique\_Gautier](#): > > “Ownership is key > > You have to give players a sense of ownership in the game. This is what will make them stay–it is a “barrier to departure.” Social bonds are not enough, because good social bonds extend outside the game. Instead, it is context. If they can build their own buildings, build a character, own possessions, hold down a job, feel a sense of responsibility to something that cannot be removed from the game–then you have ownership.” WITF… Perhaps you are taking this too seriously. You don’t own anything in game, not literally. You more or less “own” them, but really everything in game is literally CCP’s property. Read the EULA and ToS. > [@Yasique\_Gautier](#): > > Ok, if I bought it - its my ingame property, looks better now? Hahahaha…no. Try reading the EULA and ToS. > [@Yasique\_Gautier](#): > > I just dont understand why CCP decided to present a new feature to me in worst possible way. Then one lesson you should learn is to not wallow in your ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Yasique\_Gautier](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/yasique_gautier/32/243905_2.png) [@Yasique\_Gautier](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Yasique_Gautier)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 10:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517/439 "2018-03-29T22:29:05Z")
“Right” means I agree with him. Every being has built-in definitions of good and evil, thus a horse knows fire is bad and a bucket of apples is good. Same applie to people who play this game - at entrance their built-in moral and ethical rules are active, but then those bent, affected by surroundings; some just accept the new rules, while others decide to resist and stick with their built-in. I, personally, believe that attacking others without solid reason unprovoked is bad, and when I was attacked and killed by CCP-built npc gankers - I consider is as ‘bad’ towards me. Some may enjoy shooting at others, but they have low/null to exercise their beliefs, while I do not want to be dragged into not-my conflicts. Also, I believe that so-called “zero sum game” is less optimal, while every PvP is exactly that - while one wins, other always loses. This topic is about why players leave, so I answer - I considering finding less stressful hobby because CCP blowed up my ship. ---
**Author:** ![Scipio\_Artelius](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scipio_artelius/32/408264_2.png) [@Scipio\_Artelius](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scipio_Artelius)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 10:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517/440 "2018-03-29T22:37:18Z")
> [@Yasique\_Gautier](#): > > Same applie to people who play this game Game is exactly right. It is a game we are all playing together, completely within its rules and spirit. Ethically and morally, no matter whether our characters shoot other characters in the game, or build things for ourself or others, there isn’t a difference, as long as it is all done within the game. The high-horse position that shooting space pixels (just an entry in a database on a server in the UK) is somehow morally wrong is where a lot of the conflict comes from. Some people see them as a personal asset, while others just see them as something in the game to interact with. But in both cases, there is no more-moral position. It’s all perfectly fine within the context of the game (but not if taken outside that into RL). ---
**Author:** ![Gadget\_Helmsdottir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gadget_helmsdottir/32/374037_2.png) [@Gadget\_Helmsdottir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gadget_Helmsdottir)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 10:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517/441 "2018-03-29T22:45:23Z")
> [@Yasique\_Gautier](#): > > I just dont understand why CCP decided to present a new feature to me in worst possible way. Um, were you keeping current with the patch notes? How would they specifically present the information _to you_? –Curious Gadget ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 10:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517/442 "2018-03-29T22:48:53Z")
> [@Yasique\_Gautier](#): > > Every being has built-in definitions of good and evil, thus a horse knows fire is bad and a bucket of apples is good. Same applie to people who play this game - at entrance their built-in moral and ethical rules are active, but then those bent, affected by surroundings; some just accept the new rules, while others decide to resist and stick with their built-in. This is such a tiresome trope from you failures. “I can’t compete so those who can are somehow mentally defective.” Yep. > [@Yasique\_Gautier](#): > > I, personally, believe that attacking others without solid reason unprovoked is bad, and when I was attacked and killed by CCP-built npc gankers - I consider is as ‘bad’ towards me. This is the nature of the game. Either you accept it and play it, or you don’t and leave. It is supposed to be a dangerous environment. Some parts more than others. And in this case you lost out because of your own ignorance. > [@Yasique\_Gautier](#): > > Some may enjoy shooting at others, but they have low/null to exercise their beliefs, while I do not want to be dragged into not-my conflicts. Too bad, you are playing EVE Online and you cannot exempt yourself from this. > [@Yasique\_Gautier](#): > > Also, I believe that so-called “zero sum game” is less optimal, while every PvP is exactly that - while one wins, other always loses. That depends on the view you take. Your view is purely materialistic, which is fine. If you want to avoid PvP for those reasons fine…but you’ll have to work at that. You just can’t exempt yourself…you have to protect yourself. And that means being vigilant for threats and avoiding them whenever possible. Some of us do not take a purely materialistic view and enjoy the challenge of combat oriented PvP and as such it is not zero sum. > [@Yasique\_Gautier](#): > > This topic is about why players leave, so I answer - I considering finding less stressful hobby because CCP blowed up my ship. Good, with your attitude you really won’t be missed at the end of the day. > [@Gadget\_Helmsdottir](#): > > Um, were you keeping current with the patch notes? My guess: No. He was blissfully ignorant until his ship exploded. > [@Gadget\_Helmsdottir](#): > > How would they specifically present the information to you? Maybe a telegram or even better a flowergram, some honeybun roses with a note saying, “Dear delicate player, we have increased the strength of some rats in systems with an FOB in them, please play according. Regards, CCP.” ---
**Author:** ![Acac\_Sunflyier](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/acac_sunflyier/32/403457_2.png) [@Acac\_Sunflyier](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Acac_Sunflyier)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 11:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517/443 "2018-03-29T23:01:23Z")
Where is your evidence that player population is declining? ---
**Author:** ![Solstice\_Projekt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/solstice_projekt/32/503293_2.png) [@Solstice\_Projekt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Solstice_Projekt)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 11:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517/444 "2018-03-29T23:09:40Z")
> [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > you failures Maybe you are doing this for too long, too often already. Maybe you agree? > [@Yasique\_Gautier](#): > > Every being has built-in definitions of good and evil, thus a horse knows fire is bad and a bucket of apples is good That is a very simplistic view of our complex reality. The concept of good/bad has been invented by humans. There is no such concept in nature. It is a rather flawed way of thinking about things, because it locks the mind into specific states and hinders free thinking. It causes intolerance, too, because “that which is the opposite of my own doings must be bad, because i am good” is a common way of reacting to the world. A horse avoids fire, because fire means pain. A horse likes apples, because they taste well. A horse seeks fire when it is cold. Baked apples taste great. Nature has no concept of good/bad. I digress … I absolutely agree with you that you are not fit for this game. I hope you find something else. “ELITE”: “DANGEROUS” might be more to your liking. : - ) [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517.md?page=21) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517.md?page=23)