# The real reasons player population is declining **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [January 16, 2018, 5:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517 "2018-01-16T17:54:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 36
**Author:** ![Auto-da-fe](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/auto-da-fe/32/53227_2.png) [@Auto-da-fe](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Auto-da-fe)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2018, 9:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517/713 "2018-04-09T21:08:40Z")
No Trolls today? All the local trolls are tiring out? (oh wait … an ISD posted something. ) On a very serious note: Some trolls don’t even realize what it is they are saying sometimes. Maybe that’s the whole point of being a troll, eh?, just say whatever comes to mind, then babble on that subject till the Attention Deficit kicks in, and they’re off doing something else. > [@Feilamya](#): > > Interestingly, most “This is why EVE is dying” posts seem to come from players who have made the wrong choice (such as going where the crowd is going and getting repeatedly blown up/pushed away/harrased, or rejecting/avoiding the social aspects of the game and wondering why they still haven’t built their own space empire, as advertised by CCP…) First, CCP does NOT advertise EVE Online in anything even approaching a truthful light. We’ve been over this, advertising for EVE Online is outright, sheer and utter deception. CCP just wants to lure in the “average MMO player”. Compare the Advertising of “EVE Online” with another recently released game claiming to be a Sandbox! In the advertisements of this other game (which shall remain nameless … unless you ask me! I’ll give you the name, a link to their website and a link to the advertisement I’m referring to! 🤣 ) they actually show a GATE CAMP! And most importantly … MOST IMPORTANTLY OF ALL … THEY SHOW … THEY DISPLAY … THEY DEPICT … that the gate camp is NOT a risk free activity!!! Also, this Ad does NOT depict the player as becoming the “Savior of the Universe” as does EVE Online, this AD does NOT depict the player as becoming the head of a mighty space empire as does EVE Online, this Ad depicts the player as just a miner, doing what he enjoys, and be very much part of the larger game. I was very impressed by this AD! And, I am tempted to check out the game. However, and unfortunately for me, I once played EVE Online and it was such a horrendously awful experience it’ll be a long time before I go near anything that calls itself a “Sandbox” again. 😑 ---
**Author:** ![Kieron\_VonDeux](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kieron_vondeux/32/38030_2.png) [@Kieron\_VonDeux](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kieron_VonDeux)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2018, 10:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517/714 "2018-04-09T22:45:30Z")
Haven’t read the entire thread, but the reasons I have stopped actively playing Eve Online since 2014 are related to the fact that once I achieved the 100 billion isk mark with no desire to fly Supers, and now the only point to train skills is to save them up and extract them, and the stale nature of Null Sec gameplay, and the steady evolution of Hi Sec to the most dangerous space, though that has changed a bit in the last few years, the only place I could enjoy the game was as a pirate in Low Sec, and that got old after 5+ years. Due to the changes in the nature of Hi Sec, it has become difficult to take a break from the rest of the game and fly solo in Hi Sec a bit to enjoy a less eventful version of the game. So now when I take breaks from the game, I actually stop playing the game, and it has been getting harder for me to get interested in starting up again, even in Low or Null. Its kind of hard to keep a game interesting for those who have been here for 15+ years while keeping it accessible for new players, especially with the current space-security model. I did enjoy the game for about 9 years, going from Hi Sec to Null Sec then to Low Sec, and doing that cycle again several times, but to be honest; I don’t think I would have stuck with this game if I joined in the last few years. The nature of the game and the community has changed from what it was. I think it appeals to a more narrow, and smaller, player base than it used to and it has become harder to retain older players for many differing reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Dom\_Arkaral](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dom_arkaral/32/462611_2.png) [@Dom\_Arkaral](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dom_Arkaral)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 1:51am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517/715 "2018-04-10T01:51:34Z")
send some isk my way, I only invest in high-value assets 😉 tia ---
**Author:** ![Ralph\_King-Griffin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ralph_king-griffin/32/252855_2.png) [@Ralph\_King-Griffin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ralph_King-Griffin)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 2:53am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517/716 "2018-04-10T02:53:23Z")
> [@Auto-da-fe](#): > > However, and unfortunately for me, I once played EVE Online and it was such a horrendously awful experience it’ll be a long time before I go near anything that calls itself a “Sandbox” again. and yet you sit here , spit in the sand and complain no one will play nicely with you? [https://i.redd.it/wxdftjea9wq01.gif(image larger than 4 MB)](https://i.redd.it/wxdftjea9wq01.gif) ---
**Author:** ![Gadget\_Helmsdottir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gadget_helmsdottir/32/374037_2.png) [@Gadget\_Helmsdottir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gadget_Helmsdottir)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 3:06am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517/717 "2018-04-10T03:06:37Z")
> [@Auto-da-fe](#): > > Some trolls don’t even realize what it is they are saying sometimes. Maybe that’s the whole point of being a troll, eh?, just say whatever comes to mind, then babble on that subject till the Attention Deficit kicks in, and they’re off doing something else. ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/3/3/33992b49d7361368747514b56eb79f92cc871051.gif) –Amused Gadget ---
**Author:** ![Ima\_Wreckyou](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ima_wreckyou/32/235531_2.png) [@Ima\_Wreckyou](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ima_Wreckyou)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 5:50am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517/718 "2018-04-10T05:50:36Z")
> [@Kieron\_VonDeux](#): > > the fact that once I achieved the 100 billion isk mark with no desire to fly Supers, and now the only point to train skills is to save them up and extract them, and the stale nature of Null Sec gameplay Just send the money to me and start over. I will put it to good use and you have a new goal. We both win 😁 ---
**Author:** ![KaarBaak](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kaarbaak/32/15021_2.png) [@KaarBaak](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/KaarBaak)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 11:44am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517/719 "2018-04-10T11:44:52Z")
I’m not sure you’re reading charts correctly. Over the same 3 month period (Jan-Mar) the averages were: 2014: 35,000 2015:: 29,000 2016: 26,000 2017: 31,000 2018: 27,000 The 2017 number was the downward remnant of the Alpha bump. If you consider that prior to the 2017 number above all of those were paying accounts, and the 2017 and 2018 numbers include non-paying Alphas, I’d say the trend is pretty clear. ( to be clear…that trend is not “flat.”) KB ---
**Author:** ![Ima\_Wreckyou](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ima_wreckyou/32/235531_2.png) [@Ima\_Wreckyou](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ima_Wreckyou)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 12:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517/720 "2018-04-10T12:03:29Z")
Please don’t forget that at the end of 2014 was when the “unlimited” skill queue was introduced. Before that it was limited to 24h. According to CCP this had a massive effect on the daily logins. ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 2:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517/721 "2018-04-10T14:12:07Z")
I was referring to PCU since Jan 2018. It is rather flat for that time period. Even your own data suggests it. The averages from 2016 and 2018 are quite close. ---
**Author:** ![KaarBaak](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kaarbaak/32/15021_2.png) [@KaarBaak](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/KaarBaak)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 3:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517/722 "2018-04-10T15:31:11Z")
And, as I said…that high number for 2017 was just the remnants of the Alpha boost from Q4 2016 and contains a significant number on non-paying Alpha accounts, relative to previous years. I don’t know what the ratio of Alphas to Omegas is, but even if only 20% of the accounts are Alphas, that’s a fairly significant dip. It might be great for in-game bodies, but unless CCP is fine providing the game for free…that is something that it’s shareholders are probably not agreeable to. ---
**Author:** ![Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jonah_gravenstein/32/386819_2.png) [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jonah_Gravenstein)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 4:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517/723 "2018-04-10T16:37:15Z")
> [@Auto-da-fe](#): > > Some trolls don’t even realize what it is they are saying sometimes. Maybe that’s the whole point of being a troll, eh?, just say whatever comes to mind, then babble on that subject till the Attention Deficit kicks in, and they’re off doing something else. ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/c/0/c0783cb20c3c41bba79c1e670847c8c3db168a61.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 4:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517/724 "2018-04-10T16:46:09Z")
> [@KaarBaak](#): > > And, as I said…that high number for 2017 was just the remnants of the Alpha boost from Q4 2016 and contains a significant number on non-paying Alpha accounts, relative to previous years. I did not reference 2017 in my last post or my post you first referenced. I’m not saying you are wrong about Alphas just that it doesn’t apply to my point. My point has always been there is NOT much of a downward trend for 2018. Is there a trend when taking a longer time series? Sure. But applying a simple trend model would be misleading in terms of forecasting. Edit: To be clear. My comments about “pretty flat” was just for 2018. As such I can read graphs just fine, thank you. As to your data. Look at 2016. What is the average? 26,000. You correctly note the spike in PCU due to the introduction of Alphas and you note it lingered into 2017. But 2018 is well past that spike and yet the average PCU is _ **higher** _ in your data than for 2016 which is likely _overstated_ because of that spike in Alphas. And lastly your definition of “paying customer” is…limited. Yes Alphas do not pay a subscription, but they may be buying PLEX making them another type of paying customer. ---
**Author:** ![Bibosikus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/bibosikus/32/379586_2.png) [@Bibosikus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Bibosikus)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 6:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517/725 "2018-04-10T18:02:51Z")
The reason is because the game gets harder and harder. People moan and moan and moan about CCP making it easier but they are not at all. Its got nothing but harder. When i started M0o hadn’t even made the first Dominix. There were like 4 cruisers per race. 2 battleships and a fist full of frigs. Since then EVE has grown exponentially and with that growth has come ever more complexity. People claim they are making it easy and crap but they are not. People who have played this game for a decade still have to learn basic mechanics over and over. Because the game is ruthless if you leave for 6 months you need to learn so much stuff over again its a joke. The game is becoming bloated under its own ruthlessness. die hard lolzboiz say it’s not fair to make it easy. while on the other side you get people dying to mechanics so dated and convoluted they don’t understand why. The game is very frustrating. For example if you haven’t played for 6 months and log a titan in now. Theres no warning that citadel mechanics have been changed. So some poor sap loses their titan because of the new re-tether timer. Or. The new asteroid belts made from cracking moons. You now have to manually fly to each dam mining platform to see if it has a belt. WHY? ITS JUST MORE TIME WASTING BS instead of just adding cracked belts to the asteroid belt list when they are there. And then there is WH space, a half ass joke where its nothing but effort to play. Not mentioning its crap tastic mechanics making it hard to remove established groups from. People leave because eve has become a nightmare of fringe mechanic exploitation and meta game play. Its over embraced ruthlessness at the expense of being able to log on for 30min after work. have some lolz with the boys and not give you ptsd. until CCP rethink their entire ethos the game will keep declining. This was inevitable because while alphas have reinvigorated numbers they will inevitably hit a wall of commitment. They by their nature are not commuted to the game as a omega and as such are less likely to stick out complex changes or return after changes. ---
**Author:** ![Vortexo\_VonBrenner](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vortexo_vonbrenner/32/64874_2.png) [@Vortexo\_VonBrenner](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vortexo_VonBrenner)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 6:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517/726 "2018-04-10T18:12:18Z")
> [@Bibosikus](#): > > Theres no warning Patch notes? ---
**Author:** ![Alopex-Lagopus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/alopex-lagopus/32/407823_2.png) [@Alopex-Lagopus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Alopex-Lagopus)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 7:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517/727 "2018-04-10T19:52:29Z")
Introduced my sister and over 20 of her friends to this game a few months ago. It was safer and easier for her and them to learn the game in null over high sec. I think something in this game is broken. I can not possibly imagine what it could be… ---
**Author:** ![KaarBaak](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kaarbaak/32/15021_2.png) [@KaarBaak](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/KaarBaak)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 8:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517/728 "2018-04-10T20:20:04Z")
I guess there’s no point in discussing this with you, since you don’t seem to understand how numbers work. 2016: 26,000 (100% paying subs) 2018: 27,000 (??% paying subs…generously 80%) means 21,600 paying subs. 21,600 \< 26,000 I really cannot make it any clearer. ---
**Author:** ![Alopex-Lagopus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/alopex-lagopus/32/407823_2.png) [@Alopex-Lagopus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Alopex-Lagopus)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 8:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517/729 "2018-04-10T20:26:51Z")
> [@KaarBaak](#): > > I guess there’s no point in discussing this with you, since you don’t seem to understand how numbers work. > > 2016: 26,000 (100% paying subs) > > 2018: 27,000 (??% paying subs…generously 80%) means 21,600 paying subs. > > 21,600 \< 26,000 > > I really cannot make it any clearer. You are wasting your time with Teckos Pech, He is a well known troll and time waster. ---
**Author:** ![Scipio\_Artelius](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scipio_artelius/32/408264_2.png) [@Scipio\_Artelius](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scipio_Artelius)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 9:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517/730 "2018-04-10T21:10:05Z")
> [@Alopex-Lagopus](#): > > It was safer and easier for her and them to learn the game in null over high sec. > > I think something in this game is broken. > > I can not possibly imagine what it could be… It’s quite clear I think, it’s the level of community and assistance available. In null, they likely had a whole community in Corp and Alliance that all worked together to support each other, provide safety and ensure it was easy to learn. In highsec, people don’t care about anyone but themself for the most part. There are some notable exceptions like EVE Uni, the large wardec corps and alliances and the ganking groups for example. Outside that, most people couldn’t care less about helping each other in highsec. ---
**Author:** ![Alopex-Lagopus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/alopex-lagopus/32/407823_2.png) [@Alopex-Lagopus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Alopex-Lagopus)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 9:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517/731 "2018-04-10T21:18:24Z")
The thing that drove them out of high sec was constant war decks and T2 frigs and cruiser gangs literally camping right out side the stations where they where. ---
**Author:** ![Scipio\_Artelius](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scipio_artelius/32/408264_2.png) [@Scipio\_Artelius](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scipio_Artelius)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 9:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517/732 "2018-04-10T21:37:54Z")
> [@Alopex-Lagopus](#): > > The thing that drove them out of high sec was constant war decks and T3 frigs and cruiser gangs literally camping right out side the stations where they where. Sure and that is very symptomatic of a corp leadership that weren’t supporting them well (though there are no T3 frigs, so I assume you mean T3 cruisers, which are commonly used by wardeccers). A competent corp leadership would have been able to help them survive that easily; and that’s where the huge difference is between highsec and nullsec. New players that join Karmafleet for example - join a massively active corp (8,232 members), that is part of the largest Alliance/Coalition in the game (Goons: 36,000 members and a coalition that stretches to \>80,000), with dedicated corp forums, comms, new player training, mentor programs, free skillbooks, free ships, fleets leaving 1DQ1 every 2-3 hours 24/7, a huge superfleet umbrella that can respond at a moment’s notice in delve, great intel, active training classes, all the mining, ratting and industry support anyone could need. On top of that, the support and systems encourage activity, to the point where the [monthly economic report provides clear evidence of how alive Delve is](https://www.eveonline.com/article/p6rqtc/monthly-economic-report-march-2018): It’s not the wardeccers issue, because outside highsec, a wardec isn’t even needed. Delve systems are camped every day for example, but when someone camps people in Delve, this is the sort of response that occurs: > **[Loki | Dog Cancer | Killmail](https://zkillboard.com/kill/68871913/)** > > Dog Cancer (The Asilidae) lost their Loki in MO-GZ5 (Delve). Final Blow by Garkus (KarmaFleet) flying in a Avatar. Total Value: 982,716,772.57 ISK Titans will drop to support people. Goons on the whole, will respond to take assets away from other groups that try to harass them: > **[Raitaru | Dancing Pistols | Killmail](https://zkillboard.com/kill/69264054/)** > > (Dancing Pistols) lost their Raitaru in Hier (Aridia). Final Blow by Yana Hatakan (EVE-RO) flying in a Ferox. Total Value: 587,641,777.27 ISK > **[Raitaru | Dancing Pistols | Killmail](https://zkillboard.com/kill/69264146/)** > > (Dancing Pistols) lost their Raitaru in Hier (Aridia). Final Blow by Memorien (Kriegsmarinewerft) flying in a Ferox. Total Value: 587,641,777.27 ISK > **[Athanor | Renovatio Invaders | Killmail](https://zkillboard.com/kill/69232080/)** > > (Renovatio Invaders) lost their Athanor in Yahyerer (Aridia). Final Blow by Jon Hortoni (Special Tactical Arm's Research Laboratories) flying in a Jackdaw. Total Value: 7,167,338,227.25 ISK > **[Raitaru | Renovatio Invaders | Killmail](https://zkillboard.com/kill/69232477/)** > > (Renovatio Invaders) lost their Raitaru in Yahyerer (Aridia). Final Blow by Archerbiu 2016 (New Eden Three-body Organization) flying in a Jackdaw. Total Value: 5,004,297,285.14 ISK > **[Athanor | Renovatio Invaders | Killmail](https://zkillboard.com/kill/69229990/)** > > (Renovatio Invaders) lost their Athanor in Getrenjesa (Aridia). Final Blow by Cant think23 Ct's (Donec Purum Scoriam) flying in a Crow. Total Value: 2,784,711,781.71 ISK > **[Raitaru | Renovatio Invaders | Killmail](https://zkillboard.com/kill/69229519/)** > > (Renovatio Invaders) lost their Raitaru in Yahyerer (Aridia). Final Blow by Nephie (4S Corporation) flying in a Jackdaw. Total Value: 10,643,350,729.97 ISK etc. etc. etc. (lots more structure examples in the LSH killboard, because of their attempts to kill people in Delve). The same is true of other nullsec groups. They support each other. And the moment a new player joins one of these groups, they have access to everything. In highsec, they had a corp that couldn’t even help them undock from a station, either because the leadership didn’t care, were incompetent or both. No wonder they found it easier in null (whether Goons, Pandemic Horde, TEST, Brave). There is actual community among the members that make things safe in areas where the game mechanics are much more relaxed. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517.md?page=35) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-real-reasons-player-population-is-declining/51517.md?page=37)