# The relist fee for changing market orders. Could it be improved this way? **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [April 11, 2020, 5:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-relist-fee-for-changing-market-orders-could-it-be-improved-this-way/231782 "2020-04-11T17:40:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Scoots\_Choco](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scoots_choco/32/262262_2.png) [@Scoots\_Choco](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scoots_Choco)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 5:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-relist-fee-for-changing-market-orders-could-it-be-improved-this-way/231782/21 "2020-04-13T17:21:45Z")
> [@Marek\_Kanenald](#): > > distract from what a market order should be: A simple way of saying you want to buy or sell something. I’m not sure what “distraction” you’re talking about. If you want to simply say you want to buy something, then just set up a buy order priced at what you’re willing to pay for the good. The Relist modification fee doesn’t prevent you from doing this. The only thing it punishes are people who feel the need to be “first” in line, no matter what. Those people don’t want “a simple way of saying [they] want to buy or sell something”, they just want to be “first”. And it’s that constant need to be “first” that is being punished. ---
**Author:** ![Marek\_Kanenald](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/marek_kanenald/32/257788_2.png) [@Marek\_Kanenald](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Marek_Kanenald)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 5:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-relist-fee-for-changing-market-orders-could-it-be-improved-this-way/231782/22 "2020-04-13T17:42:25Z")
No it is a horrible way because it forces you to precisely guess the quantity and price a good will sell at. Nobody wants to buy higher than they need to. Lets say a good is listed at 100 isk. The maximum I want to pay is 150 isk. What do I put my order at? 100 and be overbid? 150 and pay more than neccesary? What if the price changes over time? Do I put up a large order that is very expensive to alter? Do I put up a small order that loses out on how much I want to really buy? It is simply a horrible way to hold a sale due to all the strategic effects above how much you want to buy of what item for what price. The 4 digit rule already removes getting first in line without having a significant price difference. ---
**Author:** ![Scoots\_Choco](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scoots_choco/32/262262_2.png) [@Scoots\_Choco](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scoots_Choco)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 5:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-relist-fee-for-changing-market-orders-could-it-be-improved-this-way/231782/23 "2020-04-13T17:51:33Z")
> [@Marek\_Kanenald](#): > > No it is a horrible way because it forces you to precisely guess the quantity and price a good will sell at. Can you take a screenshot of this relisting fee “forcing” you to precisely guess the quantity and price a good will sell at? I haven’t seen a window pop up or any option that appears. But I might be marketing wrong, so I’d like to learn. > [@Marek\_Kanenald](#): > > Lets say a good is listed at 100 isk. The maximum I want to pay is 150 isk. What do I put my order at? 100 and be overbid? 150 and pay more than neccesary? What if the price changes over time? Do I put up a large order that is very expensive to alter? Do I put up a small order that loses out on how much I want to really buy? Congratulations, you are learning the grey area of uncertainty that separates good traders from bad traders. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Haulie\_Berry](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/haulie_berry/32/388021_2.png) [@Haulie\_Berry](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Haulie_Berry)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 6:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-relist-fee-for-changing-market-orders-could-it-be-improved-this-way/231782/24 "2020-04-13T18:07:01Z")
Weird, the rule about articles with “Question” headlines (the answer is always no) seems to apply to Eve forum posts, too. ---
**Author:** ![Iceacid\_Frostpacker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/iceacid_frostpacker/32/505689_2.png) [@Iceacid\_Frostpacker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Iceacid_Frostpacker)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 6:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-relist-fee-for-changing-market-orders-could-it-be-improved-this-way/231782/25 "2020-04-13T18:08:43Z")
This the change I feel that I take a little extra in deciding the listing price and try to estimate where the market will be inside the next 3 days. Up or Down. If down I sell instant and if up I list it around the last sale price. ---
**Author:** ![Marek\_Kanenald](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/marek_kanenald/32/257788_2.png) [@Marek\_Kanenald](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Marek_Kanenald)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 6:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-relist-fee-for-changing-market-orders-could-it-be-improved-this-way/231782/26 "2020-04-13T18:26:28Z")
> Can you take a screenshot of this relisting fee “forcing” you to precisely guess the quantity and price a good will sell at? I haven’t seen a window pop up or any option that appears. But I might be marketing wrong, so I’d like to learn. Sorry but if you can’t see the implications without a pop up window that is on you. It takes very little brains to see that big orders are hurt more by the relist fee than small orders. > [@Scoots\_Choco](#): > > Congratulations, you are learning the grey area of uncertainty that separates good traders from bad traders. I am discussing the game design, not how to adept to these changes. The system is rigid, punishing and frankly unnecessary. I have said it before, a market order is not an exchange of goods, it is a form of communication, that communication should not entail more than half the total fees. It is the sales tax that should form the real isk sink. ---
**Author:** ![Scoots\_Choco](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scoots_choco/32/262262_2.png) [@Scoots\_Choco](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scoots_Choco)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 6:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-relist-fee-for-changing-market-orders-could-it-be-improved-this-way/231782/27 "2020-04-13T18:29:49Z")
> [@Marek\_Kanenald](#): > > The system is rigid, punishing and frankly unnecessary. I have said it before, a market order is not an exchange of goods, it is a form of communication, that communication should not entail more than half the total fees. It is the sales tax that should form the real isk sink. I don’t know what any of this means. You’re just talking in vague generalities in hopes that you say something broad enough to make people agree with you, like a crappy horoscope. Give me a concrete example of how the market should be “Designed” because all I’m seeing is that you are unable to adapt and are venting about how you can’t update your order every 5 minutes without suffering huge losses. ---
**Author:** ![Marek\_Kanenald](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/marek_kanenald/32/257788_2.png) [@Marek\_Kanenald](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Marek_Kanenald)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 6:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-relist-fee-for-changing-market-orders-could-it-be-improved-this-way/231782/28 "2020-04-13T18:35:54Z")
I already told you. Higher sales tax and no relist fee. The relist fee is solving a problem that no longer exists due to the 4 digit rule. ---
**Author:** ![Scoots\_Choco](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scoots_choco/32/262262_2.png) [@Scoots\_Choco](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scoots_Choco)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 6:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-relist-fee-for-changing-market-orders-could-it-be-improved-this-way/231782/29 "2020-04-13T18:38:44Z")
> [@Marek\_Kanenald](#): > > Higher sales tax and no relist fee. Sales taxes have already been increased, a couple of times by CCP. Yiou’re saying we need MORE? > **[Updates to Sales Taxes & Brokers Fees | EVE Online](https://www.eveonline.com/news/view/updates-to-sales-taxes-and-brokers-fees)** > > Take a look at this devblog for more information on changes to sales taxes and brokers fees that are coming to New Eden soon! > [@Marek\_Kanenald](#): > > Higher sales tax and no relist fee. > > The relist fee is solving a problem that no longer exists due to the 4 digit rule. Can you explain how the Tick Size “solved” the problem of constant relisting? The Relisting Fee currently DIRECTLY addresses the excessive spam of relisting every 5 minutes. I’m not seeing how the Tick size “solved” relist modification spam. ---
**Author:** ![Marek\_Kanenald](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/marek_kanenald/32/257788_2.png) [@Marek\_Kanenald](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Marek_Kanenald)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 6:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-relist-fee-for-changing-market-orders-could-it-be-improved-this-way/231782/30 "2020-04-13T18:41:53Z")
> Can you explain how the Tick Size “solved” the problem of constant relisting? The Relisting Fee currently DIRECTLY addresses the excessive spam of relisting every 5 minutes. I’m not seeing how the Tick size “solved” relist modification spam. Every relist is now a significant change in price. Prices move more quickly to their equilibrium point making further relisting useless > Sales taxes have already been increased, a couple of times by CCP. Yiou’re saying we need MORE? The answer is yes if it means broker and relist fees get lowered, because like I said, market orders are communication, not a transfer of goods. ---
**Author:** ![Scoots\_Choco](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scoots_choco/32/262262_2.png) [@Scoots\_Choco](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scoots_Choco)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 6:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-relist-fee-for-changing-market-orders-could-it-be-improved-this-way/231782/31 "2020-04-13T18:43:47Z")
> [@Marek\_Kanenald](#): > > Every relist is now a significant change in price. ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/f/c/fc94bebc621697209925a30a36780b9c9685e319.png) Is it though? > [@Marek\_Kanenald](#): > > , market orders are communication, not a transfer of goods. Okay, now we’re just digging into the mound of stupidity. If you actually believe this, why don’t you just “communicate” your orders with other people and not use the market? Engage in a direct trade and you’ll avoid all of the problems you’re talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Marek\_Kanenald](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/marek_kanenald/32/257788_2.png) [@Marek\_Kanenald](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Marek_Kanenald)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 6:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-relist-fee-for-changing-market-orders-could-it-be-improved-this-way/231782/32 "2020-04-13T18:52:10Z")
> Is it though? It needs some tweaking because the difference in how significant the change is when relisting near 100.00 or 99.99 is the difference between 0.1% price increase and 0.01%, but the basic idea is very sound. A 0.1% change per listing changes the price very fast when margins are usually only 20% or so to begin with. > Okay, now we’re just digging into the mound of stupidity. > If you actually believe this, why don’t you just “communicate” your orders with other people and not use the market? Engage in a direct trade and you’ll avoid all of the problems you’re talking about. Its funny because you actually proving my point. You can completely bypass the market using contracts which provides the same transfer but are more difficult to communicate. It is just that the communication is a huge pita and few bother. ---
**Author:** ![Iceacid\_Frostpacker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/iceacid_frostpacker/32/505689_2.png) [@Iceacid\_Frostpacker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Iceacid_Frostpacker)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 7:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-relist-fee-for-changing-market-orders-could-it-be-improved-this-way/231782/33 "2020-04-13T19:23:09Z")
I kind of like all the zeros now. ---
**Author:** ![Scoots\_Choco](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scoots_choco/32/262262_2.png) [@Scoots\_Choco](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scoots_Choco)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 7:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-relist-fee-for-changing-market-orders-could-it-be-improved-this-way/231782/34 "2020-04-13T19:36:00Z")
> [@Marek\_Kanenald](#): > > but the basic idea is very sound. A 0.1% change per listing changes the price very fast when margins are usually only 20% or so to begin with. I don’t see how any of this impacts relisting modifications fees though. > [@Marek\_Kanenald](#): > > Its funny because you actually proving my point. **You can completely bypass the market using contracts which provides the same transfer** but are more difficult to communicate. It is just that the communication is a huge pita and few bother. …so then why don’t you go do that and leave the market alone. None of what you said would even support your own arguments. You still haven’t explained how the Tick size has stopped the constant spam of relist modifications. And now you’re just saying vague nonsense again. ---
**Author:** ![diamond\_milo\_jomitos](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/diamond_milo_jomitos/32/197736_2.png) [@diamond\_milo\_jomitos](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/diamond_milo_jomitos)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 7:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-relist-fee-for-changing-market-orders-could-it-be-improved-this-way/231782/35 "2020-04-13T19:49:29Z")
I realised im selling stuff way faster now that the 0.000001 iskers are gone. Needs a bit more of effort and thinking, but i see stuff going away a lot more from my stocks. ---
**Author:** ![Haulie\_Berry](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/haulie_berry/32/388021_2.png) [@Haulie\_Berry](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Haulie_Berry)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 8:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-relist-fee-for-changing-market-orders-could-it-be-improved-this-way/231782/36 "2020-04-13T20:15:13Z")
“Only” 20%? For being an essentially useless middleman? How much do you think it should be? Just out of curiosity. ---
**Author:** ![Caleb\_Seremshur](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/caleb_seremshur/32/399348_2.png) [@Caleb\_Seremshur](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Caleb_Seremshur)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 8:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-relist-fee-for-changing-market-orders-could-it-be-improved-this-way/231782/37 "2020-04-13T20:28:34Z")
Are you one of these Luddites who thinks that everyone needs to manufacture everything from scratch or else their work isn’t legitimate? Moving goods from one location to another is a legitimate service provided by the shipper at their expense on the gamble that they will make a profit. Buying processed PI an T2 materials and then using blueprint to assemble them is just a convoluted extra set of steps that achieves the same relative goal of moving things from one place to another and generating added value in the process. The fact that you assembled something using labour is irrelevant. The value of risking goods shipping them out to frontline locations at or inside lowsec so that people can buy them with greater convenience is a risk in uncertain markets, ganking, late or slow delivery, being undercut and far from a trade hub, lost time, invested isk not selling off, etc etc. Always mystified by responses like yours, as if only honest blacksmiths have the valid opinion about steelwork and these fancy shops you people buy stuff from don’t generate value. ---
**Author:** ![Haulie\_Berry](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/haulie_berry/32/388021_2.png) [@Haulie\_Berry](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Haulie_Berry)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 8:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-relist-fee-for-changing-market-orders-could-it-be-improved-this-way/231782/38 "2020-04-13T20:37:11Z")
That’s a lot of irrelevant claptrap re: “how much margin is there in brokerage”, which is what this guy is actually whinging about. Great job assembling your own stupid assumptions into a ridiculous strawman for you to fight with, tho? ---
**Author:** ![Marek\_Kanenald](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/marek_kanenald/32/257788_2.png) [@Marek\_Kanenald](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Marek_Kanenald)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 8:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-relist-fee-for-changing-market-orders-could-it-be-improved-this-way/231782/39 "2020-04-13T20:38:14Z")
> [@Scoots\_Choco](#): > > None of what you said would even support your own arguments. You still haven’t explained how the Tick size has stopped the constant spam of relist modifications. What part of prices at equilibrium not getting modified a lot do you not get? ---
**Author:** ![Marek\_Kanenald](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/marek_kanenald/32/257788_2.png) [@Marek\_Kanenald](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Marek_Kanenald)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 8:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-relist-fee-for-changing-market-orders-could-it-be-improved-this-way/231782/40 "2020-04-13T20:39:42Z")
Nobody is whining about, it is just in comparison to the smallest change possible, which is 0.1% at its biggest. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-relist-fee-for-changing-market-orders-could-it-be-improved-this-way/231782.md?page=1) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-relist-fee-for-changing-market-orders-could-it-be-improved-this-way/231782.md?page=3)