# The Rise and Fall in Bitcoin Value **URL:** \ **Category:** Out Of Pod Experience\ **Created:** [January 18, 2022, 1:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290 "2022-01-18T13:41:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 66
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2022, 7:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1304 "2022-07-21T19:24:21Z")
I am “wasting” definitely less time than you defending it. I am not feeling like wasting time, its an entertainment for me, I am not only writing about BTC and money. I like to think about future. Or should I rather say about now that goes thru probable changes. Everything starts somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Karak\_Terrel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/karak_terrel/32/373453_2.png) [@Karak\_Terrel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Karak_Terrel)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2022, 8:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1305 "2022-07-21T20:35:23Z")
> [@Aedaxus](#): > > Hydro is also a big issue as the turbines kill and injure some of the fish that pass through I’m pretty sure this is a solved problem and fish can even migrate up and down a river with a power plant if done right. > [@Aedaxus](#): > > just like the very large (not the home ones) wind turbines slaughter birds. The problem with this argument is that it completely lacks context when stated this way. If you put it into context of how much buildings, cars and first of all house cats kill birds, you will find that it’s actually quite a laughable number in comparison, even per unit. > [@Aedaxus](#): > > Not sure how geothermal is bad but I’m sure we’ll fine out one day, It unfortunately seems to cause earth quakes in some places. Probably not an issue if you live on a volcano anyway. > [@Aedaxus](#): > > Maybe Atlantis also used geothermal, not sure what happened to that land Plato referred to. Well there is at least some evidence that there was a civilization ending asteroid impact 12’800 years ago. Not sure how conclusive it is, but there are some that assume there where seafaring conquering civilizations before that and some remnants of that history gave rise to the legends Plato picked up from Egypt. If anything, it’s at least an entertaining mystery. ---
**Author:** ![Karak\_Terrel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/karak_terrel/32/373453_2.png) [@Karak\_Terrel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Karak_Terrel)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2022, 8:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1306 "2022-07-21T20:42:01Z")
> [@Nana\_Skalski](#): > > I am “wasting” definitely less time than you defending it. I’m not wasting my time, I try to figure out if I’m wrong. That’s why I rather talk to people who are against it and not in an echo chamber. And writing down all this stuff gives me a feeling where I lack knowledge and where I myself am not convinced of how certain things will play out. I’m not 100% sure Bitcoin will succeed, I just have many reasonable assumptions about how it could and see far less that could actually stop it. ---
**Author:** ![Aaron](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aaron/32/379788_2.png) [@Aaron](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aaron)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2022, 9:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1307 "2022-07-21T21:05:38Z")
> [@Nana\_Skalski](#): > > I am “wasting” definitely less time than you defending it. As part of my livelihood I earn bitcoin, Karak also says he buys BTC. We actually have a reason to talk about it as we are in a better position to analyse it and tell people about our findings and learn more. You on the other hand don’t own any BTC and most likely never will and I can tell you are not here to learn much or offer a balanced opinion on economics, I’d say you are wasting your time. ---
**Author:** ![Yiole\_Gionglao](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/yiole_gionglao/32/374866_2.png) [@Yiole\_Gionglao](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Yiole_Gionglao)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2022, 7:28am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1308 "2022-07-22T07:28:00Z")
In the land of the Greater Fool, everyone is a millionaire until they run out of fools. 🤷🏻‍♀️ ---
**Author:** ![Aaron](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aaron/32/379788_2.png) [@Aaron](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aaron)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2022, 10:06am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1309 "2022-07-22T10:06:34Z")
At no point did I say anything about becoming a millionaire through Bitcoin. becoming a millionaire certainly isn’t my goal with BTC, I’d say it’s more about me not relying fully on the current fiat system and being more independent. If you took time to get to know me you would find I am a humble type of guy, my goals aren’t based on showing off and driving the most expensive Mercedes made this year, or owning a 7 bed mansion, or going on Luxurious holidays. My goals are humble and realistic. I don’t even play the lottery. So forgive me if I don’t follow your greater fools rubbish. It’s extremely ignorant to apply that to anyone interested in using finance in a decentralised manner. For many people it’s about legally circumventing the sad state of affairs within the management of fiat money. Look at this article for example; [Whoever Issues the Currency Controls the Entire Nation – Nation of Islam Research Group](https://noirg.org/articles/whoever-issues-the-currency-controls-the-entire-nation/?fbclid=IwAR1jP0Q8U4XF80gRrpNO0fZmEQE4VFiWwxueI-EkOe4F7VJFY5XLCvx4rWg) I’m not an NOI member, but there is nothing but truth in this article, please feel free to explain why the people affected in this article should continue fully using the fiat system, also explain why they would be the “greater fool” for even trying. Or is your goal just to drop an ignorant comment and then not bother responding when challenged?? Whatever bro. The convo about decentralised money is more than just “greater fool” as you can see from this very thread. we have talked about so many interesting things and I have actually gained a little more understanding about the world just by coming to this thread. Your ignorance is not required. thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Yiole\_Gionglao](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/yiole_gionglao/32/374866_2.png) [@Yiole\_Gionglao](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Yiole_Gionglao)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2022, 11:55am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1310 "2022-07-22T11:55:49Z")
Whatever your grudges are against the currency status quo, the solution is not something that does not exist unless someone gets paid with fiat currency from hell in order to supply internet data, computing power and electricity to run the show. The business it’s in running the circus, not being a clown in the rink. And those running it take no stoopid virtual currency in exchange for the physical services they provide. ---
**Author:** ![Aaron](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aaron/32/379788_2.png) [@Aaron](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aaron)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2022, 12:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1311 "2022-07-22T12:20:01Z")
Let me see if I understand you, Are you trying to tell me cryptography is useless? Do you even realise that because of the use of cryptography wars were won and the lives of millions of people were changed? Is cryptography useful when you take your debit card and buy something from Ebay? Is cryptography useful when securing your mobile phone? Is cryptography useful in securing access to buildings where they research deadly diseases in it? Is cryptography useful in proving someones Identification? Is cryptography useful in helping 2 computer servers establish trust with each other? Would you prefer if all of the sensitive information about you WASN’T protected by cryptography? Once you have answered the above questions, please could you then tell me why a cryptographic based currency would not be useful? Thank you. Seriously, quit responding, your points make no sense whatsoever and are poorly researched. Edit: You and I both know the answers to the first 7 questions as there simply isn’t any other techniques that can be used, It is all of our duty to think carefully and analyse facts and gain an understanding which we can use to come to a logical conclusion. Forget greed, ignorance, and antagonism, lets talk pure uncensored logic, are you ready to level with me? I have another one, will cryptography be useful when self driving cars become available? will the wifi network that it uses need cryptography or will it be okay to leave such a network unsecured for all kinds of hackers to access it? I am seriously and badly struggling to see how a cryptographic based currency wouldn’t be useful and have a 0 value to anyone. I have another one!! Is cryptography useful in securing the Airline industry and the terminals that flight control specialists use to communicate with flights currently in the air? I am eagerly looking forward to your responses, thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Karak\_Terrel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/karak_terrel/32/373453_2.png) [@Karak\_Terrel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Karak_Terrel)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2022, 12:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1312 "2022-07-22T12:54:26Z")
> [@Yiole\_Gionglao](#): > > Whatever your grudges are against the currency status quo, the solution is not something that does not exist unless someone gets paid with fiat currency from hell in order to supply internet data, computing power and electricity to run the show. You do realize that in the US dollar system, 92% of all dollars are virtual and not physical cash. And apart from those there is the eurodollars system (nothing to do with the Euro), which are completely synthetic dollars that get created out of thin air by banks that don’t even have something to do with the US and that completely dwarfs the actual dollars in comparison, but no one knows how much actually exist? Not even experts have the whole picture about how convoluted this fiat currency system is. And all based on trust which is slowly starting to erode and doesn’t actually work that great anymore since 2008. It’s all starting to fall apart. Anyway, I feel more comfortable with money I can understand, verify and be sure no one can create it out of thin air. That is why I store my time and work in Bitcoin and not in trash fiat others can just create however much they want. ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2022, 3:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1313 "2022-07-22T15:15:49Z")
> [@Karak\_Terrel](#): > > I’m not wasting my time, I try to figure out if I’m wrong. > [@Karak\_Terrel](#): > > You do realize that in the US dollar system, 92% of all dollars are virtual and not physical cash. Its about who you believe, who actually is there, invested, to assure the belief stays strong. Right now people invested in $ are a lot more than BTC. That is why $ is the main currency of the world alongside few other strong currencies. If, and I am sure that will not happen, the tipping point would be that BTC have more people invested in it than in the $, then it will be number one. But now its treated as any asset with small number of investors, that means volatile, sold and bought to make more actual main currency. BTC is designed to be scarce, and $ is designed to be plenty. If there is plenty of $, everyone will have it, people could be getting it for free even. In such case, who needs BTC? Only few who believe that after all the volatility, they will someday pay out a lot more than they did put in and actually buy something extra with it. Which may be the case, or may not be the case, depends on few factors, like freedom of people. I dont see like freedoms are being distributed left and right tho. Current situation worldwide is that people will be seeking organized, strong people, who in return will strip citizens out of freedoms, while still showing themselves as benevolent. It was always happening, but now is the perfect moment for it to accelerate. The world was only briefly in such good state, what will happen will be like collision of two planets, a lot of chaos, then order will emerge, but everything will be different. If you would have BTC in such environments, you would only buy few things with it, even exchanging it would be a problem, as it wouldnt be as popular for many reasons emerging from current situation. ---
**Author:** ![Shai\_Hulud](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/shai_hulud/32/279251_2.png) [@Shai\_Hulud](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Shai_Hulud)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2022, 4:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1314 "2022-07-22T16:34:41Z")
> [@Aaron](#): > > Let me see if I understand you, You don’t… (this is a common problem for you) > [@Aaron](#): > > Forget greed, ignorance, and antagonism, lets talk pure uncensored logic, are you ready to level with me? Sure! How about this : There is no logical inconsistency with liking a thing that is a part of another thing you don’t like. The part and the whole are not necessarily the same thing. Who said anything about not liking (seeing the value of, etc.) cryptography? An example of how alternate-reality-Aaron-that-hates-BTC might reply to this Aaron: You don’t like fiat… Fiat often takes the physical form of paper… Paper comes from trees… DO YOU NOT LIKE TREES?!?!??!!? ---
**Author:** ![Aaron](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aaron/32/379788_2.png) [@Aaron](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aaron)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2022, 4:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1315 "2022-07-22T16:44:18Z")
> [@Shai\_Hulud](#): > > You don’t… (this is a common problem for you) The reason why I don’t is because you and the other guy are unable to provide a valid argument against Bitcoin which uses aspects cryptography, > [@Shai\_Hulud](#): > > Who said anything about not liking (seeing the value of, etc.) cryptography? Then answer my questions honestly without emotion or nonsense, then apply that logic to a currency. if you’re unable to do that or provide an actual argument against Bitcoin they you’re wasting your time. > [@Shai\_Hulud](#): > > There is no logical inconsistency with liking a thing that is a part of another thing you don’t like. The part and the whole are not necessarily the same thing. Only cryptography is the foundation of all the things i mentioned, you still don’t have a valid argument for why it won’t work when cryptography is applied to a currency. Cryptography is used a lot to secure things which both of us agree upon. I don’t get why all of a sudden it’s useless when applied to a currency and money transfer network. > [@Shai\_Hulud](#): > > An example of how alternate-reality-Aaron-that-hates-BTC might reply to this Aaron: > You don’t like fiat… > Fiat often takes the physical form of paper… > Paper comes from trees… > DO YOU NOT LIKE TREES?!?!??!!? More childish nonsense that doesn’t move the conversation forward. Either of you are yet to provide a mature argument why cryptography can’t work with a currency and has 0 value to anyone so you resort to personal attacks. You talk like an atheist, meaning you never seem to have any suggestions about anything, all you do is critisize others views and opinions without offering a single solution or view of your own. nice try. ---
**Author:** ![Shai\_Hulud](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/shai_hulud/32/279251_2.png) [@Shai\_Hulud](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Shai_Hulud)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2022, 5:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1316 "2022-07-22T17:54:47Z")
> [@Aaron](#): > > The reason why I don’t is because you and the other guy are unable to provide a valid argument against Bitcoin which uses aspects cryptography, You would first have to properly interpret an argument to make any meaningful conclusion about its validity. Trying to have worthwhile discussion with you just ends up like this : [![](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/c/1/8/c18a77b47df89a7cea486526b60aa4b4a0f7ba3b.jpeg "AI vs. AI. Two chatbots talking to each other") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnzlbyTZsQY) ---
**Author:** ![Yiole\_Gionglao](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/yiole_gionglao/32/374866_2.png) [@Yiole\_Gionglao](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Yiole_Gionglao)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2022, 6:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1317 "2022-07-22T18:04:01Z")
Man, cryptography is how someone lets you access Their services running Their software in Their hardware paid by Their income from Your fiat currency. You don’t own what you can be denied access to with literally no way to appeal. Nobody is obligated to allow you access to whatever cryptographically protected asset you claim to own (no, you don’t own it). “But, but, my key is right! I am me!” "So what? The gates to my house are mine, and I’ve decided that you will not pass.’ Without access to your ledger, you don’t own ■■■■. And that acces depends on you paying actual money to someone who earns a living by getting real money from people who believe that access to what they don’t possess physically is a sure thing. No it isn’t. Try accessing your ledger without funds in your credit card… Real funds in real currency… ---
**Author:** ![Shai\_Hulud](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/shai_hulud/32/279251_2.png) [@Shai\_Hulud](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Shai_Hulud)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2022, 6:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1318 "2022-07-22T18:21:19Z")
> [@Yiole\_Gionglao](#): > > You don’t own what you can be denied access to with literally no way to appeal. A good example of why the level of centralization is an important consideration for any crypto currency. I think BTC (at least at L1) does a good job of avoiding centralization, assuming a healthy ecosystem of miners. ---
**Author:** ![Karak\_Terrel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/karak_terrel/32/373453_2.png) [@Karak\_Terrel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Karak_Terrel)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2022, 6:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1319 "2022-07-22T18:23:31Z")
> [@Yiole\_Gionglao](#): > > Nobody is obligated to allow you access to whatever cryptographically protected asset you claim to own (no, you don’t own it). Not sure if there is a disconnect here about how this works. No one can deny me access to my Bitcoin because I don’t need anyone’s permission to spend it. Unlike with fiat (except cash) where you need the permission of the bank to spend it. ---
**Author:** ![Shai\_Hulud](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/shai_hulud/32/279251_2.png) [@Shai\_Hulud](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Shai_Hulud)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2022, 7:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1320 "2022-07-22T19:07:26Z")
> [@Karak\_Terrel](#): > > No one can deny me access to my Bitcoin because I don’t need anyone’s permission to spend it. I believe this assumes a healthy ecosystem of miners… What about a “51% attack”? ---
**Author:** ![Karak\_Terrel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/karak_terrel/32/373453_2.png) [@Karak\_Terrel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Karak_Terrel)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2022, 7:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1321 "2022-07-22T19:58:17Z")
> [@Shai\_Hulud](#): > > What about a “51% attack”? There is tons of literature out there why we are long past the point where a 51% attack is any danger. It would take equipment worth billions of dollars and the electrical power of a small country to even start. And then you would have to keep it up with the goal to make that equipment worthless. It makes zero sense. And even if some entity should actually attempt that, there are still various measures the user nodes can take in coordination with the real miners to kick them of the network. ---
**Author:** ![Karak\_Terrel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/karak_terrel/32/373453_2.png) [@Karak\_Terrel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Karak_Terrel)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2022, 8:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1322 "2022-07-22T20:32:16Z")
> [@Nana\_Skalski](#): > > BTC is designed to be scarce, and $ is designed to be plenty. If there is plenty of $, everyone will have it, people could be getting it for free even. In such case, who needs BTC? If people get money for free, why would anyone work and produce stuff to get money? > [@Nana\_Skalski](#): > > Which may be the case, or may not be the case, depends on few factors, like freedom of people. I dont see like freedoms are being distributed left and right tho. Yes, so you think it’s a good idea then to give the people who restrict this freedoms the off-switch to your whole wealth and a money printer to dilute the medium of exchange you store the work in you do for others, so they can siphon off a part of your work or outright deny you to access it? People in rich countries don’t get this. They think they are save and it will never turn against them. But it can literally happen everywhere. And then it will be too late, and you will not be able to leave the country with your bags of gold and the virtual money on your centralized bank account will be frozen. But no one even knows of the 24 words in your head that give you access to your Bitcoin. ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2022, 8:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1323 "2022-07-22T20:32:42Z")
> [@Karak\_Terrel](#): > > No one can deny me access to my Bitcoin They can, they can even thrown you into jail, without computer. Bitcoin is so evil, that people have to be kept away from it by use of penal system. I joke of course. But that wouldnt be different than throwing into jail people who try marihuana, in Singapore you get up to 10 years in prison, while in other places you can recreationally smoke it, like in many states in USA. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290.md?page=65) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290.md?page=67)