# The Rise and Fall in Bitcoin Value **URL:** \ **Category:** Out Of Pod Experience\ **Created:** [January 18, 2022, 1:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290 "2022-01-18T13:41:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 92
**Author:** ![Aaron](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aaron/32/379788_2.png) [@Aaron](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aaron)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2022, 12:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1831 "2022-11-21T12:42:30Z")
> [@stefnia\_Freir](#): > > Ponzi refers to financial investment, not physical investments. So you talking about “little to no invesment” is off topic. Hmmm, you’re confusing me again. You claimed BTC operates like a ponzi scheme. I gave you reasoning as to why it’s does not, that’s where we are in the conversation, Do you have a direct counter to the points I have made? If not then I’m unsure how you’ve arrived at your view that BTC operates like a ponzi scheme. > [@stefnia\_Freir](#): > > I thought transactions were public on the blockchain ? They are, you only see the transaction. No one will ever know who the transaction belongs to. ---
**Author:** ![stefnia\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/stefnia_freir/32/390048_2.png) [@stefnia\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/stefnia_Freir)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2022, 12:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1832 "2022-11-21T12:42:36Z")
Yes but he will say that you need little to no investment because all you need is to talk to the guy to provide him a few apples he can show. ---
**Author:** ![Aaron](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aaron/32/379788_2.png) [@Aaron](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aaron)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2022, 12:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1833 "2022-11-21T12:46:44Z")
Your way of talking is bad. you realise you hit a brick wall and have no response to my questions. ---
**Author:** ![stefnia\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/stefnia_freir/32/390048_2.png) [@stefnia\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/stefnia_Freir)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2022, 12:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1834 "2022-11-21T12:46:44Z")
> [@Aaron](#): > > I gave you reasoning as to why it’s does not, No. You made completely off topic posts. You claimed this is not a ponzi because YOU did not have to pay a lot. Which is a nonsense. (non sequitur) You distorted the definition of ponzi to be about “how much I invest”, and “furnitures I need to obtain to use it”. This is a complete nonsense. > [@Aaron](#): > > No one will ever know who the transaction belongs to. Until they know. ---
**Author:** ![Aaron](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aaron/32/379788_2.png) [@Aaron](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aaron)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2022, 12:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1835 "2022-11-21T12:48:09Z")
> [@stefnia\_Freir](#): > > You claimed this is not a ponzi because YOU did not have to pay a lot. Which is a nonsense. (non sequitur) What is the definition of a ponzi scheme? Bearing in mind your exact statement was “BTC operates like a ponzi scheme”. I can quote you saying this if you like. If you make such a statement then you have to be prepared to answer questions as to why you think that. > [@stefnia\_Freir](#): > > non sequitur How can me asking you why you think that not be a logical continuation of the convo? > [@stefnia\_Freir](#): > > You distorted the definition of ponzi to be about “how much I invest”, and “furnitures I need to obtain to use it”. This is a complete nonsense. The definition of a ponzi is clear, it’s something I can’t change. All I did was compare the definition to what you said. All you do is debate definitions of words, not the content of what were trying to discuss, BTC is not a ponzi scheme because you say it is. > [@stefnia\_Freir](#): > > You claimed this is not a ponzi because YOU did not have to pay a lot. Which is a nonsense. (non sequitur) I also said it was not a ponzi because I am not required to find other people to do the same thing in order to get paid. Is this a logical continuation of the convo? you’ll obviously say it isn’t. So effectively whenever you make a point you make it difficult for anyone to ask you questions, anything I ask you in direct response to your claims you will say it isn’t a logical continuation of the convo. Extremely bad communication. If you’re interested in finding out precisely how BTC works feel free to write questions in this thread, there are aa few guys who will give you honest answers. ---
**Author:** ![Karak\_Terrel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/karak_terrel/32/373453_2.png) [@Karak\_Terrel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Karak_Terrel)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2022, 2:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1836 "2022-11-21T14:11:18Z")
> [@Xeux](#): > > So… just about every available investment vehicle currently in existence? I’m just glad I’m not an economist, apparently one completely loses the ability to separate obvious scams from legitimate investments because you get tangled up in text book definitions of words that completely misrepresent the historical meaning of things. ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2022, 6:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1837 "2022-11-21T18:51:42Z")
> [@Karak\_Terrel](#): > > ability to separate obvious scams from legitimate investments You can never be sure, untill it happens. Its very complicated. There is risk to everything when you give money to someone else. Investing in yourself is always the best option. ---
**Author:** ![stefnia\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/stefnia_freir/32/390048_2.png) [@stefnia\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/stefnia_Freir)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2022, 7:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1838 "2022-11-21T19:29:09Z")
> [@Aaron](#): > > What is the definition of a ponzi scheme? You should have asked this before saying it is not one. > [@Aaron](#): > > Bearing in mind your exact statement was “BTC operates like a ponzi scheme”. I can quote you saying this if you like. Please do, I did not find this exact quote. There are only 4 cases of “BTC operates” … and they all come from you. > [@Aaron](#): > > How can me asking you why you think that not be a logical continuation of the convo? That’s not what I was answering to. > [@Aaron](#): > > All I did was compare the definition to what you said. No, you actually changed the context. If you need to buy a car to work, then it’s an investment, but not in the context of a ponzi - unless it’s a ponzi about cars. > [@Aaron](#): > > All you do is debate definitions of words Because all you do is misuse the words ? > [@Aaron](#): > > I also said it was not a ponzi because I am not required to find other people to do the same thing in order to get paid. Is this a logical continuation of the convo? This is another non sequitur. The thing you claim is not logically linked to the facts you used. The deduction is not explained by the premise. ergo, non sequitur. How does the fact that you don’t need to find other people mining BTC in order to get paid, makes it not a ponzi ? It does not : there is no logical link between the two. People can be paid correctly for an honest work while they are helping a ponzi. They can even _believe_ that they are not helping a scam. You just write a sentence and claim this is logic. It’s not. > [@Aaron](#): > > anything I ask you in direct response to your claims you will say it isn’t a logical continuation of the convo. Extremely bad communication. Don’t make loaded question and I won’t answer you this is a nonsense. Try to understand what I say, in the context I say it, before claiming it’s false. I made several statement that have shortcuts, because I did not believe explaining everything was needed and I also believe that you are not able to understand a complex explanation, as you already switch context when they are simple. I guess I am the fool, trying to make a constructive discussion with people who either can’t or don’t want to. > [@Aaron](#): > > If you’re interested in finding out precisely how BTC is a ponzi free to write questions in this thread, there are aa few guys who will give you honest answers. fixed. ---
**Author:** ![Aaron](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aaron/32/379788_2.png) [@Aaron](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aaron)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2022, 7:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1839 "2022-11-21T19:45:03Z")
Ultimately you associated BTC with a ponzi scheme, I asked you to be specific about why you are associating BTC with a ponzi scheme. Do you have an answer to this question or am I to believe you have no real reason for associating BTC with a ponzi scheme? > [@stefnia\_Freir](#): > > The investment that brings money in and is required to pay miners is luring investers with high profits from re-selling it. Those profits are the result of more people investing in it, and nothing else because BTC is worse at any function it’s supposed to be used for compared to other existing products. It’s a ponzi in that sense. So, I have provided evidence that you think it is a ponzi scheme or you are associating it with a ponzi scheme. Can you not try to deny you typed this. Firstly many of those investors are people like me who want to regularly buy £50 worth of BTC to use in a private transaction. I wouldn’t refer to myself as an investor in this example, I am a customer. The extra value you speak of would be due to less BTC holding by exchanges, it is their asset and they want to sell it at a price which matches the current supply and demand of BTC. Currently the BTC price is lower due to lots of BTC being liquidated and sold back to exchanges. Associating this with a ponzi is false, A country is free to let it’s citizens use BTC, if 50 million people in one country decide to start using it for private transactions this is where the value of BTC will start to increase as it may become difficult for exchanges to source BTC so it’s important that the price it’s sold at is right. This is exactly what those investors you speak of are waiting for, they are waiting for the demand for private transactions or cheap money transfer services to increase worldwide, when this happens many people will seek out and buy BTC and the investors want to already have the BTC to sell and make lots of profit. If you had a tip that the value of the british pound could triple in a few years would you buy lots of british pounds now @ $1.18 then in the future sell those pounds for US dollars and make profit would you do it? This is really all that’s happening, it’s been happening a long time with fiat money. I think you’re just struggling with the value of BTC being strictly linked to supply and demand, It was designed this way so it could easily be scaled up if lots of countries in the world adopted it. In some years we may see a BTC value of £250,000 each, this will most likely be when 20 or 30 countries are actively using it for money transfer and privacy. ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2022, 8:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1840 "2022-11-21T20:17:58Z")
> [@Aaron](#): > > why you are associating BTC with a ponzi scheme Its really simple, BTC is used as the asset with promised gain to rip off customers of unregulated bodies. Its like in my example. Its a marked seed in this case. People have now traded seeds for promise of even more apples. And all the apples will be mine! Hahaha! 🤡 They can eat seeds. ---
**Author:** ![Karak\_Terrel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/karak_terrel/32/373453_2.png) [@Karak\_Terrel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Karak_Terrel)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2022, 8:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1841 "2022-11-21T20:35:23Z")
> [@Nana\_Skalski](#): > > You can never be sure, untill it happens. Its very complicated. I can 100% be sure that Bitcoin is not a scam, because I can validate every single aspect about it. It’s completely open source and everything about it is known, and because of the size of the network and a culture that resists change, I can be very optimistic that none of this properties will change in the foreseeable future. Obviously that doesn’t work for most other things. If you invest in a stock, it could be a scam, or the company could fail because of mismanagement, happens all the time. If you invest in shitcoins, there is a good chance it’s controlled by a hand full of people who can change it whenever they want and rug-pull you. The only thing I can not be sure about Bitcoin is if it succeeds in what it tries to achieve. That’s the risk I have when investing in it. But because I see where the development is going and how it’s actually possible that it will scale to the whole world and offer a better alternative than the current system, I’m positively optimistic that it has a good chance that it will indeed succeed. That is just my evaluation. Other people may come to other conclusions based on the capacity they have to evaluate such things. > [@Nana\_Skalski](#): > > Investing in yourself is always the best option. That is absolutely true, that should always be the first thing you do. ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2022, 8:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1842 "2022-11-21T20:47:39Z")
> [@Karak\_Terrel](#): > > The only thing I can not be sure about Bitcoin is if it succeeds in what it tries to achieve. Meanwhile: ![](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/a/6/5/a65177aae655330a4812b340a67e673764621422.png) ---
**Author:** ![Karak\_Terrel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/karak_terrel/32/373453_2.png) [@Karak\_Terrel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Karak_Terrel)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2022, 8:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1843 "2022-11-21T20:58:33Z")
I don’t care about the 5 day forecast. I care about the next couple of decades. ---
**Author:** ![Aaron](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aaron/32/379788_2.png) [@Aaron](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aaron)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2022, 11:55am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1846 "2022-11-22T11:55:00Z")
> [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > Really? Can you validate that central exchanges really hold all the BTC they claim to hold for custodial wallets? If I may, The answer is yes. This is how FTX’s dodgy dealings were found. > [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > You can’t transfer money. What you can do is buy a virtual token, Yes, A virtual token called BTC that has now been approved by many governments as legal tender. > [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > Blockchain isn’t needed for this In your opinion which is absolutely fine, just understand that not everyone will have the same perspective as you. Factually crypto can move money cheaply. You’d need a good understanding of a retailers perspective to know if it is needed or not. I think you need to look at this with a more realistic approach. ---
**Author:** ![Aaron](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aaron/32/379788_2.png) [@Aaron](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aaron)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2022, 12:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1848 "2022-11-22T12:14:14Z")
> [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > You can’t. Not only do you not necessarily know which BTC wallets hold all their crypto, you absolutely don’t know how much BTC they claim to have in custodial wallets. I don’t want to debate this, if you do a few google searches you will find my statements are true. It is public knowledge which wallets are owned by which crypto exchanges. > [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > This is not a fact. Crypto can move Crypto. Yes, and crypto is now classed as legal tender in many countries. ---
**Author:** ![Aaron](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aaron/32/379788_2.png) [@Aaron](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aaron)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2022, 12:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1850 "2022-11-22T12:22:21Z")
> [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > You’re making it pretty clear you don’t have any idea what you are talking about. My mistake, I meant to say legal, not legal tender. ---
**Author:** ![Aaron](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aaron/32/379788_2.png) [@Aaron](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aaron)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2022, 12:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1852 "2022-11-22T12:41:27Z")
> [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > It’s not enough to say “we know which on-chain wallets Binance holds” because you have no idea how much crypto their customers think they own. You’re actually right. To find this out you would have to employ people like Chainalysis ---
**Author:** ![Aaron](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aaron/32/379788_2.png) [@Aaron](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aaron)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2022, 3:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1854 "2022-11-22T15:18:46Z")
> [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > the exchange is incentivized to manipulate the price the opposite way to cause those margin positions to be liquidated Do you mean manipulate the price as in setting the price of BTC manually or do you mean buying BTC fraudulently to make it look like lots of people are buying it? > **[Modeling Bitcoin Value with Scarcity](https://medium.com/@100trillionUSD/modeling-bitcoins-value-with-scarcity-91fa0fc03e25)** > > “As a thought experiment, imagine there was a base metal as scarce as gold …" — Nakamoto This link details how they arrive at the current BTC value. What also needs to be understood is that times are very hard at the moment with record price rises of food/energy never been seen before. Whoever purchased BTC to sell in the future at a profit may now need that money simply to pay bills or other general expenses as we know there have been plenty of job loss for example. It would be completely ludicrous if a person owned £20k worth of BTC and kept it as BTC while they lost their job, they are behind on mortgage repayments, and can’t afford food, the only logical step would be to sell the BTC for fiat money and handle business. I hope you can see my point, the BTC investment becomes non-viable due to the investor not being able to afford the normal cost of living. This is partly what has been happening recently, it looks like BTC is crashing but really the value is just a reflection of current economic conditions. This is the reason for the apparent “crash” Do you really think an exchange can operate by manipulating values and get away with it without anyone noticing? Anyone doing what your saying will go to prison. ---
**Author:** ![Xeux](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xeux/32/428022_2.png) [@Xeux](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xeux)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2022, 4:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1855 "2022-11-22T16:09:24Z")
> [@Aaron](#): > > Do you really think an exchange can operate by manipulating values and get away with it without anyone noticing? Anyone doing what your saying will go to prison. This is literally what banking is. Not many people go to prison for it. ---
**Author:** ![Aaron](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aaron/32/379788_2.png) [@Aaron](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aaron)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2022, 4:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1856 "2022-11-22T16:52:26Z")
> [@Xeux](#): > > This is literally what banking is. Not many people go to prison for it. Come on man, we both know people have gone to prison for misleading investors. > **[Who went to jail for their role in the financial crisis?](https://ig.ft.com/jailed-bankers/)** > > The FT identified 47 bankers jailed. Half were from just one country What’s being suggested here is blatantly against the law and effort will be made to bring them to justice. Don’t get me wrong, I realise this fraud can happen, it does take a different type of person to risk a jail sentence, me, I like my freedom and would never do a pre-meditated crime to gain more money. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290.md?page=91) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290.md?page=93)