# The Rise and Fall in Bitcoin Value **URL:** \ **Category:** Out Of Pod Experience\ **Created:** [January 18, 2022, 1:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290 "2022-01-18T13:41:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 93
**Author:** ![Xeux](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xeux/32/428022_2.png) [@Xeux](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xeux)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2022, 5:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1858 "2022-11-22T17:35:29Z")
Bitcoin makes an ideal pyramid investment scheme because it is all out in the open, so nobody needs to be the mastermind and go to prison. The funny thing is that the system should have already collapsed and the founders should have cashed out a long time ago. But there are a bunch of fringe scam “cryptocurrency” exchanges or whatever that are being used to keep the hamster wheel spinning. The bitcoin guys all mock these peripheral scams as having nothing to do with bitcoin, but without them, the value of bitcoin would probably be $5. Even if bitcoin somehow manages to survive the inevitable bloodbath of a cryptocurrency market crash, and even if it succeeds in becoming a medium of international exchange, that will just mean more and more government restrictions will be imposed upon it. Eventually it will become so burdened with regulations that it will be pretty much the same as what we already have for foreign exchange options. I will volunteer that bitcoin probably started out as a legitimate nerd project, not as a pyramid investment meant to compound growth with unimaginable valuations. Just because something is honest (like real estate, tulips, silver, or equity shares of some corporation) doesn’t mean speculators cannot spin up the values to fantastical, unsustainable heights. ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2022, 6:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1859 "2022-11-22T18:21:55Z")
> [@Aaron](#): > > Do you really think an exchange can operate by manipulating values and get away with it without anyone noticing? Nobody who are close and invested and profiting will do anything to stop it. The rest is people like me and you and those who have some money there. I can shout the loudest and will not be heard, because the rest is just not going to listen, knowing “better”, while biased. Only when imminent is going to happen and it cant be longer hidden, people panic, but its too late. ---
**Author:** ![Aaron](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aaron/32/379788_2.png) [@Aaron](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aaron)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2022, 7:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1860 "2022-11-22T19:21:59Z")
> [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > The value of bitcoin is just set by what people are willing to pay for it vs what people are willing to sell it at. You’ve completely ignored the fact that it’s a finite currency, If what you’re saying was actually true then it goes against the exact purpose BTC was designed for. You’ve ignored that it has a scarcity level, and you’ve ignored that the amount of BTC created decreases over time, all of these factors contribute to the current value. Right now the scarcity level is low because it seems nobody can afford to hold their BTC which includes BTC miners. crypto investment companies have liabilities which they can’t afford to pay, Attempts are made to liquidate a bankrupt investment company and if BTC is sold as part of the liquidation then this will lower the scarcity of BTC. You’re totally wrong on how the current BTC value is determined. You need to understand that if what you’re saying is true then BTC would be useless and the people who use/own it for the reasons I mentioned would not use it. Supply/Demand, scarcity, finite value all affect the price, this happens to be the one of the reasons why I am involved in BTC. > [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > The crash is a lot more complex than that. When you buy BTC you are gambling on the price of BTX being higher in the future. When I buy BTC I simply want to use it for a private transaction. See I’m right, too many of you are stuck on the view that if someone buys BTC it is exclusively for investment purposes, this is false. You’ll find the lower BTC value “crash” isn’t that complicated. The main reason is BTC is seen as an investment which could return a large amount of regular money, Investment is difficult when the cost of living is very high. the cost of business is also high, many are not even sure how they are going to keep the lights on in their bar or restaurant for example. Literally, every single penny anyone has is being used to service cost of living and keeping the doors open for whatever business they do. Anyone who is surprised at the current BTC value doesn’t understand how an economy works. > [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > I know you don’t like it, but it really is just a ponzi scheme, it’s just a headless ponzi scheme. People are convinced to pay for an arbitary token that represents their “investment”, and they will get more for their “investment” if people can be convinced to pay more for it. Weather I like what you’re saying or not is irrelevant, I’m still going to buy my £50 worth of BTC regularly for my private transaction, there are also lots of people who use it in the same way I do, so sorry I don’t share your view. To me BTC is a useful tool which can be scaled up or down, We could get to a point where it is legal tender in 20 countries and many people will use it in the same way I do, when this happens we will simply see a value that matches the fact people in 20 countries use it as legal tender for private transactions. The issue I have with many of you is that you try to come to conclusions where you’ve ignored key facts. Ignoring key facts in any type of business will lead to falsehood and confusion. There are 100 million units (satoshi’s) in a BTC, it’s been designed to scale up if it’s adopted by billions of people. ---
**Author:** ![Gadget\_Helmsdottir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gadget_helmsdottir/32/374037_2.png) [@Gadget\_Helmsdottir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gadget_Helmsdottir)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2022, 7:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1861 "2022-11-22T19:29:48Z")
> [@Aaron](#): > > I don’t know …obviously… –Gadget notices ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2022, 7:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1862 "2022-11-22T19:35:30Z")
> [@Aaron](#): > > it’s a finite currency, Its a finite thing. Even people are, and people lives. Unfortunately the things are not priced as they should, doesnt matter how original and unique they are. Its only about how much someone is willing to give for it. ---
**Author:** ![Karak\_Terrel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/karak_terrel/32/373453_2.png) [@Karak\_Terrel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Karak_Terrel)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2022, 7:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1863 "2022-11-22T19:36:07Z")
> [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > Really? Can you validate that central exchanges really hold all the BTC they claim to hold for custodial wallets? Can you validate that USDT isn’t being printed out of thing air and used to make trades to pump the price of BTC? Can you validate that exchanges aren’t manipulating the prices when margin balances lean too far one way or the other in order to cause liquidations? Bitcoin depends on none of this things. It was literally invented to be able to transact peer to peer without central custodians being required. Some of this things may influence short term price movements, but they are completely inconsequential in the long run. > [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > The scam isn’t the existence of bitcoin, it’s the attached value attributed to in and the unsustainable claims about what it can achieve designed specifically to lure in marks. That’s just like your opinion. I’m convinced it can achieve what it is set out to do. If you think differently, feel free to ignore it. ---
**Author:** ![zazzmatazz\_Xu](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zazzmatazz_xu/32/451037_2.png) [@zazzmatazz\_Xu](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/zazzmatazz_Xu)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2022, 8:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1864 "2022-11-22T20:09:18Z")
Too bad we couldn’t trade crypto for isk, at this point isk is worth more. ---
**Author:** ![Xeux](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xeux/32/428022_2.png) [@Xeux](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xeux)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2022, 8:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1867 "2022-11-22T20:39:25Z")
> [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > Pedos, drug dealers and terrorists, those are the types of people who have a use case for crypto. There is a bunch of illegal stuff I would like to buy. How do I do it without getting caught? 'cause it seems like bitcoin doesn’t really prevent getting caught. ---
**Author:** ![Karak\_Terrel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/karak_terrel/32/373453_2.png) [@Karak\_Terrel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Karak_Terrel)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2022, 8:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1868 "2022-11-22T20:53:49Z")
> [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > The price of bitcoin is directly impacted by those things though. If you are going to say that nothing that impacts it matter then the same is true of any currency. It impacts the price in the short term. It has no impact in the long run. The more capitalized Bitcoin gets and the more solutions are built that allow everyone to use it peer to peer, the less impact on the price this centralized entities will have. > [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > You can validate you have 100 USD by counting bank notes regardless of whether the US economy exists. That only works for cash, which is a tiny fraction of all dollars in existance. The majority of the dollar and every other fiat currency system is completely dependant on the banking infrastructure. If the banking system collapses, so does the fiat system. The same is not true for Bitcoin, which will continue working like nothing happened. It is incrediby resilient. ---
**Author:** ![Aaron](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aaron/32/379788_2.png) [@Aaron](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aaron)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2022, 9:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1869 "2022-11-22T21:03:00Z")
> [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > I don’t know what that has to do with how the price is determined, lol > [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > None of that matters directly to the price. The only way it matters is that it will influence what some people are willing to pay. lol > [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > It _is_ useless 😄 Did you bother to check the the BTC explorer link I posted? Did you see the all the live transactions listed? Smile all you like, myself and those people doing those transactions will never agree. > [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > Then you’re almost certainly a criminal, If I am I’m sure the law will catch up to me one day. hasn’t happened yet. > [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > This just isn’t true. The crash did not line up with cost of living increases. This shows me you have no idea what your on about. 1, Virus 2,Lockdown, 3, Borrow record amount of money 4, Give money to people 5, Pay back money at high interest 6, Recession, economic downturn. Good investors would know this was going to happen (cost of living crisis) when governments had to borrow money for lock down, guess what, it has to be paid back with interest. I’m not even an economist and I knew this would happen. As I said you have no understanding of how BTC links to the economy. I suggest you read the original whitepaper by Satoshi, also watch the news and read the news paper as well all of what I type is very well documented in the news and current affairs programs. So remember this, when astronomical, crazy, never been seen before amounts of money have to be created or borrowed for any reason, expect a cost of living crisis when the dust settles. Everything will lose value, including BTC. ---
**Author:** ![Aaron](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aaron/32/379788_2.png) [@Aaron](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aaron)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2022, 11:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1872 "2022-11-22T23:57:53Z")
[![](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/a/f/4/af4ccc8e07de9d85026d5f3b29191b38ca5658ed.jpeg "What The Top Of Mount Stupid Looks Like - FTX's Caroline Ellison") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UO3AVNCclUg) ---
**Author:** ![Aaron](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aaron/32/379788_2.png) [@Aaron](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aaron)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2022, 12:03am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1873 "2022-11-23T00:03:40Z")
> [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > Good investors won’t be worried about cost of living increases. You actually believe this considering what’s going on right now? So the pandemic, lockdown, borrowing, austerity should all be completely ignored by investors and they should just do what they’re doing withot consideration for any of this? It’s an investors job to understand these things which will help the to make the right investments. > [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > It doesn’t say any of what you’re claiming though. So you’ve not read the whitepaper but you’re an expert on BTC who feels they are in a position to tell me what BTC is? > [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > You’re just going "bitcoin is da best! because you’ve been told to say that, Just like you’ve been conditioned to say “BTC is only an investment” > [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > because the whole of the ponzi scheme that is crypto relies on most of you being crazed fanatics that will sing crypto praises no matter what. I’m not crazed for using a digital token that helps me remain private, I paid around £3.00 in fees for each transaction. ---
**Author:** ![stefnia\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/stefnia_freir/32/390048_2.png) [@stefnia\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/stefnia_Freir)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2022, 12:14am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1874 "2022-11-23T00:14:35Z")
> [@Aaron](#): > > So you’ve not read the whitepaper but you’re an expert on BTC who feels they are in a position to tell me what BTC is? Personal attacks are the sign of a lack of arguments. ---
**Author:** ![Aaron](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aaron/32/379788_2.png) [@Aaron](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aaron)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2022, 12:22am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1876 "2022-11-23T00:22:41Z")
> [@stefnia\_Freir](#): > > Personal attacks are the sign of a lack of arguments. I have arguments, it’s just that you’re not typing anything which is based on fact. And that wasn’t a personal attack, I’m genuinely puzzled as to why you talk this way. You seem to have skipped the step which involves understanding BTC (and the economy) before you talk about it and arrive at conclusions. ---
**Author:** ![Aaron](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aaron/32/379788_2.png) [@Aaron](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aaron)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2022, 12:25am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1877 "2022-11-23T00:25:00Z")
> [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > Why would I ever say that? It’s not an investment, All of your arguments and points have examples of only buying btc to hold and sell in the future for profit. you believe this is it’s only function. > [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > Why would I ever say that? It’s not an investment, it’s a ponzi scheme and when you buy into it you are gambling. There’s no underlying asset or useful tech that provide some actual value, there’s no profitable output from it, most people are just buying it and hoping someone else will buy it later. There are even people still deluding themselves thinking they can buy $10 worth of BTC and become a millionaire. It’s all rubbish. Nothing is going to change because you think that, most people arrive at conclusions once they’ve understood. This will continue regardless of what you say. Based on what you’ve typed you clearly don’t understand what BTC is due to lack of revision. If one is to talk extensively on a subject then one must research that subject extensively beforehand. ---
**Author:** ![stefnia\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/stefnia_freir/32/390048_2.png) [@stefnia\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/stefnia_Freir)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2022, 12:28am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1878 "2022-11-23T00:28:58Z")
> [@Aaron](#): > > I have arguments, it’s just that you’re not typing anything which is based on fact. That is again a personal attack. You attack me instead of answering to the point - like in your post I quoted. > [@Aaron](#): > > You seem to have skipped the step which involves understanding BTC (and the economy) before you talk about it and arrive at conclusions. Another one. You don’t even read what I wrote, you misunderstand in a way that this has nothing to do with what I wrote. I’m still waiting for your “exact quote” , for example. this one > [@Aaron](#): > > Bearing in mind your exact statement was “BTC operates like a ponzi scheme”. I can quote you saying this if you like. * * * > [@Aaron](#): > > you believe [investment] is it’s only function. It’s the only reason it’s invested into. And again this investment is _required_ to make it work. Remove speculation - and yes laundering but I’m only considering legal activities - and nobody pays the miners. ---
**Author:** ![Aaron](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aaron/32/379788_2.png) [@Aaron](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aaron)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2022, 12:36am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1879 "2022-11-23T00:36:03Z")
> [@stefnia\_Freir](#): > > It’s the only reason it’s invested into. And again this investment is _required_ to make it work. Remove speculation - and yes laundering but I’m only considering legal activities - and nobody pays the miners. Tell yourself whatever you need to. I’m happy with what I already know (and am still learning) about BTC/crypto. > [@stefnia\_Freir](#): > > That is again a personal attack. Sensitive? And it’s true, you’re not typing anything based on fact. > [@stefnia\_Freir](#): > > It’s the only reason it’s invested into. And again this investment is _required_ to make it work. Remove speculation - and yes laundering but I’m only considering legal activities - and nobody pays the miners. It’s invested into because the investors believe in the future more people will use it for private transactions and money transfer. Investors want to be holding BTC when this happens and make a profit from selling it. The confusion on your part comes from you not wanting to understand it’s a currency and that is actually it’s primary use. > **[Who accepts Bitcoin as payment?](https://cointelegraph.com/explained/who-accepts-bitcoin-as-payment)** > > Who accepts Bitcoin as payment? Read about the companies that accept BTC as a payment method Many big companies now accept BTC, this is what I mean when I say I talk fact. Although many of the companies here seem to exchange crypto they receive immediately back to USD. Home Depot, Whole Foods, and Virgin Airlines are among them. I think crypto exchanges will simply have to accept a limited amount of profit (profits from fees where customers buy crypto for transactions and fees for retailers selling the BTC from customers back to them) and forget about earing money directly from investing customers funds. Exchanges will still make lots of money from fees. Obviously the people who manage these 3 companies are not stupid and I am very sure they would never use a ponzi scheme as part of their payment systems, You will have to take these facts seriously and take another look into why you believe what you do about BTC. ---
**Author:** ![Karak\_Terrel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/karak_terrel/32/373453_2.png) [@Karak\_Terrel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Karak_Terrel)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2022, 3:10am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1880 "2022-11-23T03:10:55Z")
> [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > The only way it will be less impacted is if it gets heavily regulated, in which case you won’t like it anymore. What will get regulated is how businesses interact with Bitcoin, not Bitcoin itself. Countries can certainly ban themselves from Bitcoin, but they can’t stop or change it. > [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > Blockchains have certainly had more global issues than banking infrastructure has had. Baking infrastructure also has the added bonus of being accountable. You think a bunch of hidden loosely linked together ledgers, which is essentially what the banking industry is, is more accountable than a distributed immutable public ledger? 🤣 > [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > If a flaw exists in blockchain that allows someone to empty a bunch of wallets, that’s just tough luck. No, it is fraud unmistakably on record on an immutable ledger. It can not be hidden. The immutability is a feature, it just records what happens and no party has the possibility to forge the ledger. The consequences of that fraud will have to be resolved in meat space. The same way it would happen when that flaw was at a bank. The difference is that you have an immutable record and clear trace of the crime, while with regular banking you just have to hope they got something and that all banks involved will cooperate and share the relevant information. Even legacy banks can’t just rewind things, if the funds are gone they are usually gone, and transactions can’t just be reverted. Bitcoin is the first accounting innovation since double entry ledgers. It is the only immutable ledger in existance, because it is secured with raw energy, something you can’t fake no matter what. Other blockchains don’t have that feature, becuse they don’t have the hashpower to guarantee immutability. ---
**Author:** ![stefnia\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/stefnia_freir/32/390048_2.png) [@stefnia\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/stefnia_Freir)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2022, 12:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1881 "2022-11-23T12:19:15Z")
> [@Karak\_Terrel](#): > > Bitcoin is the first accounting innovation since double entry ledgers. It is the only immutable ledger in existance, because it is secured with raw energy, something you can’t fake no matter what. It’s not immutable, otherwise it would be useless. I think you mean push-only . ---
**Author:** ![Karak\_Terrel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/karak_terrel/32/373453_2.png) [@Karak\_Terrel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Karak_Terrel)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2022, 12:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1882 "2022-11-23T12:32:01Z")
Ah right, the economist, I have to explain the obvious. The history of transaction is immutable in the sense that once a block is buried under enough following blocks it’s basically impossible to change them, because of the work each block adds. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290.md?page=92) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290.md?page=94)