# The Rise and Fall in Bitcoin Value **URL:** \ **Category:** Out Of Pod Experience\ **Created:** [January 18, 2022, 1:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290 "2022-01-18T13:41:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 94
**Author:** ![stefnia\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/stefnia_freir/32/390048_2.png) [@stefnia\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/stefnia_Freir)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2022, 12:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1883 "2022-11-23T12:36:52Z")
It’s not obvious, it’s wrong. The ledger is the record of all transactions acknowledged. It is immutable when it can’t ever be modified. Adding entries to it is a modification. BTC allows to add transaction entries, therefore it’s not immutable. So claiming the ledger is immutable is obviously wrong. Before making personal attacks, try to read and understand. ---
**Author:** ![Aaron](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aaron/32/379788_2.png) [@Aaron](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aaron)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2022, 1:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1886 "2022-11-23T13:24:54Z")
> [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > I guarantee I know more about bitcoin than you do. You only know what you think, it’s not based on anything factual. You completely ignored the fact 3 reputable companies accept BTC as means of payment. Why aren’t you outraged that this has happened? Obviously you know more than professionals at these 3 companies. > [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > There’s little point continuing a discussion because bitcoin fanatics will never accept reality. You first, accept the reality 3 massive companies accept it as payment right now. This makes much of what you have said complete and utter nonsense. I know you have absolutely no reply for this point, you are not smarter than anyone else. You’ve provided no evidence or referred to any facts to support the rubbish you are talking. ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2022, 1:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1887 "2022-11-23T13:28:37Z")
There was a lot of manipulation, lies, lack of ethics, that is obvious without any psychoanalysis or math. This is common to all fraudsters, they dont have to be competent in matter that is used for fraud, because its scheme that works with majority of humans, playing on emotions using lies, not any logic. ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2022, 1:30pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1889 "2022-11-23T13:30:54Z")
> **[Discover different types of fraudsters](https://www.counterfraud.gov.au/discover-different-types-fraudsters)** > > Use the Fraudster Personas to help you think like a fraudster, understand their methods and identify vulnerabilities in your programs. ---
**Author:** ![stefnia\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/stefnia_freir/32/390048_2.png) [@stefnia\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/stefnia_Freir)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2022, 1:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1890 "2022-11-23T13:34:43Z")
> [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > But it can’t be reversed. If someone robs a bunch of BTC through a flaw and sticks it in a wallet, it’s gone. You can’t get it back. If a bank had a security flaw that allowed your balanced to be zeroed you’d get that back from the bank in the majority of countries. Basically when you transmit a bank operation, you can still cancel it. The delay depends on the banks involved. But then if it’s a fraud, then you can make the receiving bank make a reject operation. The thing is, since it’s regulated you can _legally_ have them produce a reject operation. the bank is paying you back (actually your bank, which also make a transaction towards you), not the frauder. While in BTC, you can’t force the frauder to send you the money back. ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2022, 1:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1891 "2022-11-23T13:38:46Z")
Because frauds that use people naivety, instead of technology, are so common, anything that holds value is not safe in any case. Only the way to get back resources stolen and trace the suspect are important, use must be regulated. Punishment must be inevitable. That includes all crypto. ---
**Author:** ![Aaron](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aaron/32/379788_2.png) [@Aaron](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aaron)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2022, 1:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1892 "2022-11-23T13:39:44Z")
> [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > Of course they did. Crypto is popular with the types of audience these companies appeal to so by accepting crypto (which will be immediately converted to cash) they can attract those customers. It’s done purely as a marketing gimmick, not because they actually believe bitcoin is useful. Sorry, I think you’re completely deluded and you try too hard to ignore facts. Many of these companies are doing extensive works and emplying a few different systems and plan to accept many different crypto coins, not just BTC. But you’d never know any of this because you’re always right, so right infact that you don’t even need to bother reading factual articles. ---
**Author:** ![Aaron](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aaron/32/379788_2.png) [@Aaron](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aaron)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2022, 1:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1894 "2022-11-23T13:45:22Z")
> [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > You know I’m right. You know that these companies are offering crypto payments as a gimmick, not because they actually think crypto has a future. You’ve just realised you fell for the gimmick. You never read the link, What’s written in the article is right. ---
**Author:** ![Aaron](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aaron/32/379788_2.png) [@Aaron](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aaron)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2022, 1:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1896 "2022-11-23T13:52:31Z")
> [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > I did, and nothing on the article disputes what I’ve said. But you should also understand that what is written on an article on a crypto website is not necessarily factual anyway. Well okay, I’m unsure who you are trying to convince that BTC is a ponzi, but I will leave you to ignore a lot. good luck. ---
**Author:** ![Aaron](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aaron/32/379788_2.png) [@Aaron](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aaron)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2022, 1:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1898 "2022-11-23T13:56:18Z")
> [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > You know I’m right. You know that these companies are offering crypto payments as a gimmick, not because they actually think crypto has a future. You’ve just realised you fell for the gimmick. Not at all, I’ve been using BTC for transactions for a number of years already, It benefits me, I am happy and would consider using BTC and the many types of Crypto some retailers now accept if I can find a way to mine it using my GPU’s. ---
**Author:** ![Aaron](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aaron/32/379788_2.png) [@Aaron](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aaron)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2022, 1:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1899 "2022-11-23T13:58:15Z")
> [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > I’m not trying to convince anyone. Crypto is a ponzi, that’s just a fact, but I’m well aware that when people have already been convinced to buy into a scam it’s nearly impossible to convince them that it is a scam. Perhaps you should write a letter to all of the companies who accept crypto and inform them they are doing fraud and are part of a ponzi scheme. ---
**Author:** ![Aaron](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aaron/32/379788_2.png) [@Aaron](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aaron)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2022, 2:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1901 "2022-11-23T14:00:31Z")
Copied from the link you never read; Overstock is currently leading the way in the shopping and cryptocurrency field. Overstock goes as far to accept multiple kinds of cryptocurrency, not just bitcoins. Not only is Overstock accepting bitcoin but they are [holding it](http://money.cnn.com/2017/12/18/news/companies/overstock-ico-ceo-byrne/index.html) too! Theses are the types of vendors that serve the bitcoin community in the best possible way! They are clearly in it for the long haul and not simply using Bitcoin as a marketing ploy. Just make sure to choose Bitcoin as your payment method during the checkout process. Here is what that will look like: More copying; What is Overstock? Overstock is **a tech-driven online retailer located near Salt Lake City in the shadow of the Wasatch Mountains**. Since our beginnings in 1999, Overstock has evolved from a fledging startup to a billion-dollar online retailer as a result of a hard-working and creative team. So I’m supposed to accept that this company has employed a ponzi scheme and scam as a payment system? Don’t make me laugh, you’re being silly. ---
**Author:** ![Karak\_Terrel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/karak_terrel/32/373453_2.png) [@Karak\_Terrel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Karak_Terrel)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2022, 2:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1902 "2022-11-23T14:07:28Z")
> [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > But they can make it entirely illegal to operate with. It’s widely accepted that if it were ever to be accepted in major nations every wallet used would need to be fully identified by a regulated provider, every transaction tracked and transfers to or from unknown wallets would be illegal. Possible for certain countries. Where I live it already got regulated years ago and transacting with an unknown wallet is perfectly fine. That regulation is the reason why most crypto companies are settling down here, because they have regulatory clarity and can innovate. Not all countries see this technology as a threat. In the end countries who ban themselves from this technology and open networks will suffer the consequences when their financial industry is stuck in the last century. > [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > Crypto doesn’t really add anything either, it’s just a distributed ledger. Everything it does could be done with regular tech without the need for the massive energy waste of mining, or any other consensus mechanism. There was never a neutral global currency without central issuer with a fixed monetary policy that can be moved at the speed of light. This can not be achieved with conventional technology and the energy consumption is justified for what it creates. > [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > The reality is though that it would never be usable, because the miners can be anywhere and there’s zero chance that many countries are going to accept the mining being done in countries with sanctions. The reality is that Bitcoin will simply remove the power of certain global actors to weaponize the monetary system for sanctions. Tough luck > [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > If any crypto is used in any official capacity it’ll be set up and controlled by nations. It’s a bit “if” though since there’s absolutely no benefit to using cryptocurrencies. We are currently tumbling into a situation where the world is split more than ever, none of the actor will want to give the other side the power over the money printer. Bitcoin as the only neutral option will be the natural choice for international trade. Countries may be able to enforce CBDC within their borders, but not outside. > [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > Yeah, because there are strict legal requirements on them. I certainly think they are more accountable than anonymous devs. Actually that is just wishful thinking, as soon as the money is outside your countries borders it’s pretty much gone. Even inside your country they will most likely not be able to do something about it. Popular recent example: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBXpjY\_uLtw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBXpjY_uLtw) > [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > But it can’t be reversed. If someone robs a bunch of BTC through a flaw and sticks it in a wallet, it’s gone. You can’t get it back. If a bank had a security flaw that allowed your balanced to be zeroed you’d get that back from the bank in the majority of countries. It’s an important feature of the base layer that it can’t be reverted. Even if a bank reverses a transaction they have to go trough a mess in meat space and identify and probably legally compel the entity that holds the money now to send it back. They can’t just delete or revert just the ledger entry on their end. > [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > And that’s before you even look into the fact that as a consumer all crypto offers is the chance to have all of the responsibility placed on you. You make a mistake, it’s irreversible, you lose your key, it’s unrecoverable, etc. But no one said that every normi should actually use the base layer. Bitcoin is built in layers, and the blockchain is just the first of it, basically the physical layer to allocate money. Then on top of that is the transactional layer Lightning, and there are more getting added, like fedimint, which is community custody and probably the first layer where regular users would use it in a global scenario. There you can for example recover lost keys. > [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > I think you’re deluded. There’s little point continuing a discussion because bitcoin fanatics will never accept reality. In their mind crypto is the epitome of tech even though there’s overwhelming evidence that it’s not. It’s a slow, inefficient and costly way to make a distributed database. And I think you are just butthurt. I’m pretty open to change my mind, it’s just that your arguments are not at all convincing or even original until now. It’s pretty obvious that you have only a very superficial understanding of the technology and are just repeating standard anti-Bitcoin talking points. ---
**Author:** ![Aaron](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aaron/32/379788_2.png) [@Aaron](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aaron)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2022, 2:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1903 "2022-11-23T14:14:39Z")
> [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > I’m not trying to convince anyone. Crypto is a ponzi, that’s just a fact, Facts are proven and one should be able to provide evidence easily if they are quoting a fact. Feel free to show me evidence where I can believe it beyond reasonable doubt. ---
**Author:** ![Xeux](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xeux/32/428022_2.png) [@Xeux](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xeux)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2022, 2:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1904 "2022-11-23T14:28:33Z")
> [@Karak\_Terrel](#): > > standard anti-Bitcoin talking points. Maybe. But these “talking points” are also what some people call “common sense.” If Bitcoin fails, it won’t be because the distributed ledger model failed, it will be because of a lot of external, unpredictable external like volatility, speculation, and avaricious governments. ---
**Author:** ![Karak\_Terrel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/karak_terrel/32/373453_2.png) [@Karak\_Terrel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Karak_Terrel)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2022, 2:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1907 "2022-11-23T14:39:46Z")
Yeah I don’t think so, and I have already addressed this points multiple times over this thread, mostly without getting any actual responses to my answers. Usually it’s just followed up by more of the same anti-Bitcoin talking points because people don’t actually seek a honest discussion about this things. ---
**Author:** ![Karak\_Terrel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/karak_terrel/32/373453_2.png) [@Karak\_Terrel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Karak_Terrel)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2022, 3:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1909 "2022-11-23T15:22:14Z")
> [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > For now. It falls foul of FATF rules though so eventually it won’t be possible. Where do you live? Switzerland. FATF are just suggestions that so far have shown no result and just produced a ton of friction and cost for the legacy financial system. It’s probably also completely undermining the rights to privacy and the presumption of innocence. I’m pretty sure they will cause problems, and I’m pretty sure it’s FATF that will be cut and not Bitcoin. > [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > This is based on the false assumption that crypto is the future, when it’s absolutely not. It’s really crappy tech. Yeah, crypto is mostly trash. Bitcoin is the invention and it’s indeed the future, as well as things that build on it. > [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > Which is all well and good if you’re someone that thinks nations are inherently evil. From the perspective of normal people who think it’s a good thing to be able to put pressure on countries engaging ne genocide and supporting terrorism it’s not a good thing. They can still do that, just not by weaponizing the monetary system. You know, the “good side” in the current conflict with the trigger on the monetary system is lead by a country that constantly conducts war crimes by droning civilians and throw foreign journalists into a dungeon that expose them. This isn’t always a simple good vs. bad situation. Sometimes it’s pretty bad vs. worse and I don’t want anyone of them to hold that power. > [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > It’s not neutral though, because it’ll just become a war of hash power. Unless a single country has 51% of all miners under their control and actively starts to censor transactions that isn’t a concern. In fact, the ideal energy for mining is curtailed renewable energy, which is distributed all over the globe. > [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > What you’re suggesting tis that a country like the US is going to give up control of it’s own national currency, give up it’s ability to adjust its economy when needed and sign up to a “neutral” currency. I did not say that. But China may not take the dollar anymore and try to force them to use their currency for international trade. With both sides not wanting to give the other side the power, a neutral solution becomes very attractive. > [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > They’d then be at risk of massive national-level cyber warfare being set up to manipulate the blockchain by controlling the majority of hashing power. As long as everyone does that it makes the network even stronger. lol > [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > It’s just not going to happen. If major nations decide to use crypto it’ll be on blockchain controlled by them. But they won’t because blockchains are just a slow, power intensive and costly way to store data. Yeah blockchain are only useful for decentralized global consensus and finding that consensus is cumbersome. If you don’t have that requirement you are better off with centralized databases. That’s also the case why most crypto projects are probably complete ■■■■■■■■. It has a use case for Bitcoins base layer, but apart from that it’s probably useless. > [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > If someone steals your crypto and dumps it in a wallet, then you can only get it back if they give you the private key. Noone else can reverse it. Yeah, strong property rights come with it’s new set of problems. I think we will manage to find ways how to deal with that. > [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > Lighting is just a way to get ledger entries off the blockchain. So now you have a blockchain that’s supposed to be a ledger of transactions, but because it’s useless at doing that you’ve now got yet another third party tech on top of blockchain that you have to hope is doing its job right which will occasionally write balancing transactions back to the blockchain. Yeah, blockchains are very limited and have serious drawbacks, and they can’t produce a global monetary network on their own. They can however build a strongly decentralized global digital bearer asset we can then utilize further with things like Lightning. Even the legacy financial system has separated transaction and settlement layers > [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > I don’t think that’s true. You’ve already decided that crypto is the future of money and that anyone that disagrees will be “left behind”. Yeah that is my assumption, I think I mentioned multiple times in this thread that I could be wrong and this is just an informed guess. I don’t think I have seen you make the same concession. > [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > This is what you tell yourself so you don’t have to listen to any opposing views. You’re free to think it though, and free to dump all of your cash on blockchain and cross your fingers. Just don’t expect me to talk you off the ledge when you lose everything when crypto inevitably implodes. If I didn’t want to listen to any opposing views I would not talk to you. ---
**Author:** ![Aaron](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aaron/32/379788_2.png) [@Aaron](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aaron)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2022, 3:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1910 "2022-11-23T15:38:34Z")
> [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > Just don’t expect me to talk you off the ledge when you lose everything when crypto inevitably implodes. There’s that “BTC is only an investment” again ---
**Author:** ![Aaron](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aaron/32/379788_2.png) [@Aaron](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aaron)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2022, 3:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1912 "2022-11-23T15:56:18Z")
> [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > You really have your roles switched. Show me the evidence that BTC is a scam and ponzi then. ---
**Author:** ![Karak\_Terrel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/karak_terrel/32/373453_2.png) [@Karak\_Terrel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Karak_Terrel)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2022, 3:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290/1913 "2022-11-23T15:56:30Z")
> [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > That’s exactly what Karak is suggesting, that crypto will replace fiat. No I’m definitely not suggesting that [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290.md?page=93) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-rise-and-fall-in-bitcoin-value/346290.md?page=95)