# The scarcity move hurt PVP availability. Time to change that **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [July 14, 2022, 2:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-scarcity-move-hurt-pvp-availability-time-to-change-that/370082 "2022-07-14T14:09:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![erg\_cz](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/erg_cz/32/392645_2.png) [@erg\_cz](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/erg_cz)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2022, 2:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-scarcity-move-hurt-pvp-availability-time-to-change-that/370082/1 "2022-07-14T14:09:50Z")
I do not know what was the real reason behind the ‘scarcity’ approach, but looking at player numbers (about 15 000 against 22 000 average before scarcity) and amount of PvP actions I can say it produced negative impact on PvP part of the game. You have way less targets because people do not want to risk overpriced ships/modules. I believe last move, that really supported PvP side of the game was when CCP removed losing of the skill points if your clone was destroyed. Nothing since helped PvP at all. Abyss arenas could be move in right direction (find battle quick between kids go to bad and wife want to socialize with you) but with very few option to earn ISK for not that cheap gear the game start to be really expensive even PLEXing your way to fun. I suggest to drop prices for non-capital ships by introducingh expensive material to build capital ships and make material to produce T2 gear and non-capital ships much more affordable. Prices go down, more people will dare to go pew-pew (even carebare will go if all he loses he can mine back in a day or two in high sec). Capital ships remain rare, PLEX prices will stay inaffected, fun will increase. ---
**Author:** ![Boags](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/boags/32/382554_2.png) [@Boags](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Boags)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2022, 2:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-scarcity-move-hurt-pvp-availability-time-to-change-that/370082/2 "2022-07-14T14:52:34Z")
I like you idea but if you drop the price of T2 ships so much that miners wont mine because its not worth while then you lose more targets. if you make ratting more profitable then more peeps in space for pvp. right now just for example to replace a solo pvp loki( say 600mil fit) you would be hard pressed to make that isk ratting in null with 1 ishtar in 1 day. even with a super you would b 4hrs mabe more mabe less. Ratting income in null is so ■■■■ so nobody is out in space. Every 1 is making isk in poch or wormholes c5 or C6 then you have abyssal stuff where there is no pvp counter to it there effectively taken out the game for the 20mins it takes to run it ---
**Author:** ![tutucox\_Khamsi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tutucox_khamsi/32/430743_2.png) [@tutucox\_Khamsi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/tutucox_Khamsi)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2022, 4:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-scarcity-move-hurt-pvp-availability-time-to-change-that/370082/3 "2022-07-14T16:11:39Z")
i think cheap ships ere good for PVP and yet i don’t think people that don’t do PVP would do it even with cheap ships the idea i will farm to them PVP is a lie ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2022, 4:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-scarcity-move-hurt-pvp-availability-time-to-change-that/370082/4 "2022-07-14T16:19:19Z")
The hypothesis is written well; now you just need to provide enough data analysis in order to prove/not disprove it. ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2022, 4:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-scarcity-move-hurt-pvp-availability-time-to-change-that/370082/5 "2022-07-14T16:31:52Z")
> [@erg\_cz](#): > > I believe last move, that really supported PvP side of the game was when CCP removed losing of the skill points if your clone was destroyed. Psychologically, people are wired for a variety of things. They seek to gain relative advantage for themselves, they seek to avoid loss, they seek to gather resources, etc. They also seek excitement, reward and pleasure (or ‘fun’). Stuff like that. “Removing SP loss” reduced the cost/losses, and cheaper ships has a similar effect. However the missing part of the equation for EVE has pretty much always been the reward/advantage/fun part of the PvP. Yes, 6 different PvPers will jump in to say “Hey I find PvP fun!”. But the fact is that PvP in EVE is inherently a lossy process. More is lost than gained in every PvP encounter that ends in destruction. And in general, it’s quite slow to make a decent PvP match happen. Adding to that, the PvP process in EVE is fairly complex, consistent success requires a high level of skill and knowledge. That means that about 20% or less of those who choose to PvP are going to dominate, and the other 80% will lose more (usually much more) than they win. In that case, unless the process is crazy fun and the losses easily recouped, players will avoid PvP in general. And clearly, the EVE PvP process isn’t that much fun, on average, and takes much too long, on average. And again, on average, 10 minutes of actual PvP costs you hours or more of PvE grinding to recoup, and probably took you 30-40 minutes to arrange. The end result is that 80% or more of players spend the vast majority of their time doing something other than PvP. EVE tries to be a PvP game but it’s really an economy simulator with a little PvP thrown in for spice. If more PvP is going to happen, PvP needs to be re-made into an inherently more accessible and rewarding experience. ---
**Author:** ![erg\_cz](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/erg_cz/32/392645_2.png) [@erg\_cz](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/erg_cz)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2022, 4:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-scarcity-move-hurt-pvp-availability-time-to-change-that/370082/6 "2022-07-14T16:37:17Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > In that case, unless the process is crazy fun and the losses easily recouped, players will avoid PvP in general. That is very much the point. No fun spend whole evening looking for a fight because no one wants to lose overpriced ship. ---
**Author:** ![Rocket\_Hellfire](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/rocket_hellfire/32/396905_2.png) [@Rocket\_Hellfire](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Rocket_Hellfire)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2022, 4:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-scarcity-move-hurt-pvp-availability-time-to-change-that/370082/7 "2022-07-14T16:53:44Z")
Now do CODE. et al’s effect on production… GO! ---
**Author:** ![tutucox\_Khamsi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tutucox_khamsi/32/430743_2.png) [@tutucox\_Khamsi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/tutucox_Khamsi)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2022, 4:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-scarcity-move-hurt-pvp-availability-time-to-change-that/370082/8 "2022-07-14T16:55:57Z")
i lost 50 billion doing PVP in the last 10 years thats like 400ish million a month but im a FW dude , i payed for my plex and stuff doing it soooooooooooo PLEX killed my isk much more than the enemy minmatar and i got profit doing it people think i will farm to PVP , them they think , oh boy im losing money you have to get a niche were PVP is your job i do PVP to get isk and fun ™ @Destiny_Corrupted for example is in a WD corp , she does PVP to get isk i came back like a week ago , unfortunately suddenly i had a family problem and cant get to play much , even them i had plenty of fights in the few hours i played ---
**Author:** ![ResonanceOfWar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/resonanceofwar/32/408654_2.png) [@ResonanceOfWar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/ResonanceOfWar)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2022, 5:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-scarcity-move-hurt-pvp-availability-time-to-change-that/370082/9 "2022-07-14T17:00:54Z")
> [@erg\_cz](#): > > do not know what was the real reason behind the ‘scarcity’ approach Becuase CCP overbuffed Rorquals and left them broken for many years and the players abused it to hell and broke the economy and scarcity was meant to fix it but yea… xD its still broken. ---
**Author:** ![Moko\_Musana](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/moko_musana/32/373694_2.png) [@Moko\_Musana](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Moko_Musana)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2022, 5:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-scarcity-move-hurt-pvp-availability-time-to-change-that/370082/10 "2022-07-14T17:05:56Z")
> [@Boags](#): > > right now just for example to replace a solo pvp loki( say 600mil fit) you would be hard pressed to make that isk ratting in null with 1 ishtar in 1 day. even with a super you would b 4hrs mabe more mabe less. The Ishtar is amongst the poorest choises for high end ratting. It’s good for afk droneboating in ever repetitive haven and sanctum sites, and that’s why it’s so popular with nullers, especially the SOV nullers. > [@Boags](#): > > even with a super you would b 4hrs mabe more mabe less. A Venture can crab on Mykoserocin for 120M isk/hour, Barges do around 200M/hr. Pirate red Relics average to 20M-50M depending on pirate faction (sansha pay most, gurista least) and take 2 or 3 minutes to run, the current minmatar event easily allows for 1 billion isk to be done in exploration in a single sortie with\_out\_ blowing up other explorers and stealing their drops. With pvp it’s 3-5B isk/day right now, and more if you mess with the ratters rather then just casually blowing up other explorers when they warp into “your” data site. Get out of SOV land and you’ll have less financial issues again. We have \>150% BRM in almost all of low and NPC null space btw > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > Yes, 6 different PvPers will jump in to say “Hey I find PvP fun!”. But the fact is that PvP in EVE is inherently a lossy process. I’d rather consider it an eve-y fact that 6 different pvp-ers agreeing on something could be an indication it’s one player and his 5 alts that are talking. > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > Adding to that, the PvP process in EVE is fairly complex, consistent success requires a high level of skill and knowledge. That means that about 20% or less of those who choose to PvP are going to dominate, and the other 80% will lose more (usually much more) than they win. Who cares about isk, if you learn something valuable in the proccess? The miner who ganks other miners, unlike the “prey”, knows how to avoid getting ganked himself while mining, because he knows how he hunts the other miners, and what behaviour of the other miners has a tendency to screw up his own ganks. > [@Rocket\_Hellfire](#): > > Now do CODE. et al’s effect on production… > > GO! What does “do CODE” mean? Decide not to play any more, like James315 did? We could live in _Safety_ and Prosperity now, if the miners were less greedy, but they’re wardeccing each other because they think more outstanders would use their citadel if the neightboring systems’ corps one was blown up. Having to move assets all the time because miners ref their stations all the time takes quite a bit of effort, either in time spent with the super boring task of freighter autopiloting, or in terms of paying others to do the hauling. ---
**Author:** ![tutucox\_Khamsi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tutucox_khamsi/32/430743_2.png) [@tutucox\_Khamsi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/tutucox_Khamsi)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2022, 5:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-scarcity-move-hurt-pvp-availability-time-to-change-that/370082/11 "2022-07-14T17:07:04Z")
![6mrz3p](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/5/0/3/503f80a79340865905a259801f196168ddb6261b.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![ResonanceOfWar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/resonanceofwar/32/408654_2.png) [@ResonanceOfWar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/ResonanceOfWar)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2022, 5:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-scarcity-move-hurt-pvp-availability-time-to-change-that/370082/12 "2022-07-14T17:08:13Z")
Those are the Type of Waifus that will stab you while you sleep and rob you blind thou. But yea low sec best sec. ---
**Author:** ![Uriel\_the\_Flame](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/uriel_the_flame/32/490165_2.png) [@Uriel\_the\_Flame](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Uriel_the_Flame)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2022, 6:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-scarcity-move-hurt-pvp-availability-time-to-change-that/370082/13 "2022-07-14T18:21:59Z")
In lowsec they stab you while you’re awake and you’ll like it. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![ResonanceOfWar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/resonanceofwar/32/408654_2.png) [@ResonanceOfWar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/ResonanceOfWar)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2022, 6:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-scarcity-move-hurt-pvp-availability-time-to-change-that/370082/14 "2022-07-14T18:39:53Z")
That is also very true 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2022, 6:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-scarcity-move-hurt-pvp-availability-time-to-change-that/370082/15 "2022-07-14T18:47:31Z")
I used to be one of those but then I sold out and got a truck. ---
**Author:** ![Vokan\_Narkar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vokan_narkar/32/326293_2.png) [@Vokan\_Narkar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vokan_Narkar)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2022, 9:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-scarcity-move-hurt-pvp-availability-time-to-change-that/370082/16 "2022-07-14T21:04:48Z")
Here is idea that fixes PvP in null. Permanently delete 10% of nullsec sectors. It wouldn’t hurt to permanently delete at least few highsec areas as well (I would start with blind end sectors like Gererique or Akmoh in Kador etc.). To make sure players won’t lose their stuff, the sectors can perhaps stay in game at least for some period of time, but npc stations will be gone, ore belts too and no anomalies and signatures will spawn there anymore. Additionally certain null sectors, possibly borders between regions or manually chosen strategic sectors like crossroads etc. would have their resources increased - more belts, or even appearance of ice belt (if any of the region deleted sectors had one) etc. Still, even if this produces a new war and players shuffling eventually things will get into new status quo and lack of PvP will be there again. There is lack of incentives to PvP in this game and that with “you lose everything” is what makes PvP so adrenaline, but at the same time rare and unfair. Nothing can change this I believe. But yes, essentially I believe that we have currently too many sectors for the amount of players there are right now. That means that nullseccers have enough property and they don’t need more hence they don’t need to fight neighbors and everyone is happy. Less sectors = more ppls in them = more conflicts and interactions over whats left. ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2022, 6:03am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-scarcity-move-hurt-pvp-availability-time-to-change-that/370082/17 "2022-07-15T06:03:34Z")
> [@Vokan\_Narkar](#): > > To make sure players won’t lose their stuff, the sectors can perhaps stay in game at least for some period of time, but npc stations will be gone I just had a flash back to all the crying that happened over Pochven and the people who didnt log in for a year to know about it. And that stuff didnt even go away! They were just too lazy to get it. ---
**Author:** ![Vokan\_Narkar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vokan_narkar/32/326293_2.png) [@Vokan\_Narkar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vokan_Narkar)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2022, 10:28am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-scarcity-move-hurt-pvp-availability-time-to-change-that/370082/18 "2022-07-15T10:28:01Z")
But it was in the end the good change wasn’t it? Players will always cry, especially those who are playing the wrong game. That shouldn’t be an obstacle to do changes. But yeah pretty unlikely to happen. 😉 It would be nice though. Too many sectors for current player count. ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2022, 11:18am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-scarcity-move-hurt-pvp-availability-time-to-change-that/370082/19 "2022-07-15T11:18:40Z")
Tbh I find the best changes come with the most tears. ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2022, 12:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-scarcity-move-hurt-pvp-availability-time-to-change-that/370082/20 "2022-07-15T12:28:42Z")
Can anyone explain to me why Paladin losses are currently almost 6 times what they were in 2020. There’s a sudden increase in both kills and losses around March 2021. This doesn’t look like people being reluctant to spend and lose money on expensive ships…it looks quite the reverse. Yet another example where zkillboard, and actual data, tells a different story to the one being told. [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-scarcity-move-hurt-pvp-availability-time-to-change-that/370082.md?page=2)