# Thought: Does Power Corrupt ? Or does Power Reveal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [December 15, 2022, 12:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/thought-does-power-corrupt-or-does-power-reveal/388277 "2022-12-15T12:31:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Diana\_Kim](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/diana_kim/32/382972_2.png) [@Diana\_Kim](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Diana_Kim)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2022, 9:00am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/thought-does-power-corrupt-or-does-power-reveal/388277/41 "2022-12-21T09:00:48Z")
Tyranny is a very rare occurence in reality, yet somehow gallenean ignorants are trying to slap that label to anything they don’t like and where it clearly doesn’t belong. It as well depicts inner gallentean desire of acquiring power for the sake of imposing said tyranny on others instead of simply taking a position of power to do their job. As well the situation where a group “surrenders their individual might” is near unexistent, unless you’re talking about barbaric societies of the past when they were developing first chieftans (or when a modern society faced some sort of a collapse). And even then it wasn’t a “surrendering of individual might” (lets be honest here, invidualism is a destructive tendency, all the greatest civilization advances were developed by communal thought and effort), it as a reliance on authority, on someone who is stronger or wise, for example, village’s elder. Nowadays emergence of a leader is not a process of forming chaotic society into properly structured efficient one, but rather elevating a person in already existing hierarchy. And in that situation those who are not being elevated don’t “surrender” anything, they are just keeping their status quo. As they were subordinate to former leadership, now they are subordinate to new one. ---
**Author:** ![stefnia\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/stefnia_freir/32/390048_2.png) [@stefnia\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/stefnia_Freir)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2022, 12:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/thought-does-power-corrupt-or-does-power-reveal/388277/42 "2022-12-21T12:10:16Z")
> [@Diana\_Kim](#): > > And in that situation those who are not being elevated don’t “surrender” anything, they are just keeping their status quo. As they were subordinate to former leadership, now they are subordinate to new one. That’s a good point. What’s the difference between a leader and a tyrant ? Is it the power the tyrant has at his disposal ? Is it corruption ? ---
**Author:** ![Diana\_Kim](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/diana_kim/32/382972_2.png) [@Diana\_Kim](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Diana_Kim)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2022, 3:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/thought-does-power-corrupt-or-does-power-reveal/388277/43 "2022-12-21T15:22:50Z")
> [@stefnia\_Freir](#): > > That’s a good point. What’s the difference between a leader and a tyrant ? > Is it the power the tyrant has at his disposal ? Is it corruption ? It’s in the name. The leader is one who leads. One who does the work. He works like a locomotive, guides, pushes, pulls, for everyone to achieve a goal together, like a whole train. But while having the power to pull the train, the leader is pulling it along the rails, keeping himself bound by rules. The tyrant is one who uses the power for personal individualistic gains. It is an expression of gallentean ideals of hedonism and individualism, multiplied by ultimate freedom that the tyrant enjoys to use the power in personal interests. And what actually makes one a tyrant, I’d say it’s not the power, but the freedom to use that power. However powerful a leader can be, he, like a locomotive, stays on rails. The tyrant doesn’t need rails. He needs freedom. He will use his power to obtain his freedom and will abuse that power to exercise the freedom. A very powerful engine has ability to leave the tracks, and use all his power to go off road and skid through a field without doing actually anything useful (he will go slow and couldn’t even pull any cars like that). Or it can haul cars with goods fast and efficient by the rails. You can summarize it like this: A leader is one who uses the power to do his job. A tyrant is one who uses the power to exercise freedom. ---
**Author:** ![Valerie\_Valate](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/valerie_valate/32/386231_2.png) [@Valerie\_Valate](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Valerie_Valate)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2022, 11:42am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/thought-does-power-corrupt-or-does-power-reveal/388277/44 "2022-12-22T11:42:52Z")
Ah yes of course. Mathematically, every philosophical question can be expressed in the form of a statement why Tibus Heth was the 2nd greatest Caldari Patriot of history, and why the Gallente Federation must be destroyed. ---
**Author:** ![Diana\_Kim](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/diana_kim/32/382972_2.png) [@Diana\_Kim](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Diana_Kim)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2022, 3:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/thought-does-power-corrupt-or-does-power-reveal/388277/45 "2022-12-23T15:08:20Z")
In the same way as it can be expressed in the form of a statement that objective reality does exist. ---
**Author:** ![Kitaula\_Kuusa\_Jouhinen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kitaula_kuusa_jouhinen/32/498716_2.png) [@Kitaula\_Kuusa\_Jouhinen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kitaula_Kuusa_Jouhinen)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2022, 8:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/thought-does-power-corrupt-or-does-power-reveal/388277/46 "2022-12-23T20:38:29Z")
What a convoluted discussion. Just say “yes” and move in with life. ---
**Author:** ![Delira\_Vorse](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/delira_vorse/32/384174_2.png) [@Delira\_Vorse](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Delira_Vorse)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2022, 1:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/thought-does-power-corrupt-or-does-power-reveal/388277/47 "2022-12-24T13:53:33Z")
I think of it in similar terms to the legal terms of mens rea and actus rea. Mens rea being criminal intent, and actus rea being criminal acts. One can have criminal intent without committing a criminal act and that is perfectly legal (simply wanting or even thinking up ways for someone to be harmed is not criminal). Likewise (with some exceptions where strict liability applies), one can commit a criminal act, but have no criminal intent, and that too is legal (for example self-defense cases where injury is deliberately inflicted on others). It is only when the intent meets the act that there is a problem imo. Same with power and corruption; it is only when the two meet that there is a problem. Taken on their own neither a predilection to corruption, or an abundance of power, are inherently problematic. ---
**Author:** ![Delira\_Vorse](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/delira_vorse/32/384174_2.png) [@Delira\_Vorse](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Delira_Vorse)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2022, 2:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/thought-does-power-corrupt-or-does-power-reveal/388277/48 "2022-12-24T14:00:54Z")
I subscribe to the theory that the legitimacy of authority is derived from the consent of the governed. Two leaders can act in the same exact manner, but the leader for whom those subordinate to him do not consent to his decrees is a tyrant, while the leader for whom his subordinates willingly abide by his decrees is not. It’s that old saying about how a man can be both a terrorist and a patriot depending on who you ask. ---
**Author:** ![Van\_Cleef](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/van_cleef/32/263061_2.png) [@Van\_Cleef](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Van_Cleef)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2022, 9:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/thought-does-power-corrupt-or-does-power-reveal/388277/49 "2022-12-26T21:52:12Z")
Power and wealth only exasperates weakness in character. Power cannot destroy a person grounded in morals, it would only allow them to project that moral compass into worthwhile projects. Good people aren’t corrupted by power, they were already corrupted and the power just gave them a voice. ---
**Author:** ![Lucea\_Ajuuk](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lucea_ajuuk/32/408494_2.png) [@Lucea\_Ajuuk](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lucea_Ajuuk)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2022, 4:40am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/thought-does-power-corrupt-or-does-power-reveal/388277/50 "2022-12-27T04:40:46Z")
> [@Synthetic\_Cultist](#): > > “Power Corrupts, and Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely” The pious should take immediate issue with this phrase, for it is God alone that wields absolute power. Corruption of the spirit is what drives men in their attempts to usurp that station. The Mad Emperor and Sansha Kuvakei are examples of what becomes of those who try, both laid low by people they considered their inferiors. Power does not create corruption, _corruption craves power_. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2022, 2:08am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/thought-does-power-corrupt-or-does-power-reveal/388277/51 "2022-12-28T02:08:15Z")
> [@Lucea\_Ajuuk](#): > > The pious should take immediate issue with this phrase, for it is God alone that wields absolute power. Really, that just seems to reinforce its truism. A being with absolute power that does nothing to alleviate the suffering of trillions? How is that not evidence of corruption at best, a fundamentally evil nature at worst? Doesn’t even matter what you consider that suffering to be. Enslavement, subjugation by Kuvakei, dwelling in the darkness of heathen faiths, doesn’t matter, the Amarr God’s letting trillions continue to languish in it. If you want to claim God wields ‘absolute power’, then you’re left with the problem that your god _isn’t_ wielding it. It’s such an issue that there’s even a label for it: ‘The Problem of Evil’. No matter what your specific moral label of ‘evil’ encompasses, your god’s letting it continue. Worse, your ‘absolute power’-wielding creator figure _chose_ to _make_ it happen. God’s got absolute power, right? Then God could’ve made existence without evil, but instead chose to make existence _with_ evil. And you’re gonna tell me now that that’s _not_ a sign of some deep-seated corruption? ---
**Author:** ![Lucea\_Ajuuk](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lucea_ajuuk/32/408494_2.png) [@Lucea\_Ajuuk](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lucea_Ajuuk)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2022, 4:20am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/thought-does-power-corrupt-or-does-power-reveal/388277/52 "2022-12-28T04:20:36Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Really, that just seems to reinforce its truism. A being with absolute power that does nothing to alleviate the suffering of trillions? How is that not evidence of corruption at best, a fundamentally evil nature at worst? > > Doesn’t even matter what you consider that suffering to be. Enslavement, subjugation by Kuvakei, dwelling in the darkness of heathen faiths, doesn’t matter, the Amarr God’s letting trillions continue to languish in it. If you want to claim God wields ‘absolute power’, then you’re left with the problem that your god _isn’t_ wielding it. It’s such an issue that there’s even a label for it: ‘The Problem of Evil’. No matter what your specific moral label of ‘evil’ encompasses, your god’s letting it continue. Would it be accurate to say that you are evil because you do not spend your ISK to alleviate that same suffering? You have the free will to choose how you spend your eternity, as well as what you spend your wealth and power on. It is sin that birthed suffering into this world and it is sin that perpetuates that agony. I would not accuse you of being evil for refraining from correcting that, for in doing so you may create even more suffering. It may be within God’s power to tip His hand, but to do so may destroy even more lives. All actions have consequences and so too does inaction. It is not my place to judge God. > [@Arrendis](#): > > Worse, your ‘absolute power’-wielding creator figure _chose_ to _make_ it happen. God’s got absolute power, right? Then God could’ve made existence without evil, but instead chose to make existence _with_ evil. And you’re gonna tell me now that that’s _not_ a sign of some deep-seated corruption? Consider this: A hypothetical murderer has eluded capture by authorities. Witnesses refuse to provide information because they are afraid they may be killed next. Should authority torture them until they speak? If not, more will die. What is the corrupt choice: To inflict suffering under the assumption that you can prevent more deaths, or simply do nothing and allow the killer to take more lives? It is not so easy to make decisions when the rights and lives of many of people may be taken. So it is with God. In order for us to be responsible for our sins the consequences of our actions must not be interfered with lightly. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2022, 4:48am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/thought-does-power-corrupt-or-does-power-reveal/388277/53 "2022-12-28T04:48:35Z")
> [@Lucea\_Ajuuk](#): > > Would it be accurate to say that you are evil because you do not spend your ISK to alleviate that same suffering? You have the free will to choose how you spend your eternity, as well as what you spend your wealth and power on. Indeed, and the vast majority of my ISK over the years has gone toward alleviating that suffering. However, I do _not_ wield absolute power. Thus, any efforts of mine are, especially when compared against the vast scope of any one region, let alone the cluster or the entire universe, an infinitesimal drop in an unimaginably large bucket. > [@Lucea\_Ajuuk](#): > > It may be within God’s power to tip His hand, but to do so may destroy even more lives. But that’s not _absolute_ power, is it? Unfettered, limitless power, especially in the hands of an omnipotent deity, would also include the power to end suffering _without_ destroying lives. Or are you saying there _are_ limits to what the Amarr God is capable of doing? > [@Lucea\_Ajuuk](#): > > It is not my place to judge God. Of course it is. Your God wants your worship and your devotion, no? If you don’t critically examine him, is it sincere? It is truly unity and devotion, or simply being willing to be bribed into obedience with an offer of paradise? Isn’t that, after all, just more corruption? > [@Lucea\_Ajuuk](#): > > So it is with God. In order for us to be responsible for our sins the consequences of our actions must not be interfered with lightly. Except that the only reason those sins _are sins_ is God said so. God’s the all-powerful creator, right? So why create evil, billions of years ago when the universe was set in motion? There’s no _assumption_ here, no ‘can I prevent deaths or suffering?’ Your God wields absolute power. Your God has demonstrated the ability to grant prophecy—the ability to _inerrantly_ foretell what _will_ happen. That’s perfect predictive awareness. It also means that however you fall on the ‘free will’ debate, God knew, long before you were presented with the choice, what you _would_ choose… without any possibility of you ever choosing anything else, because if you choose something other than what God foresaw, that would mean God’s inerrant prophetic ability is, in fact, not inerrant. So when a being with perfect predictive awareness chooses to create something, it knows, with its unlimited power and perfect prediction, _exactly_ how every single event _will_ play out for any given set of starting conditions. And it gets to choose the starting conditions. Which means God chose the outcome of _every_ event. God _chose_ for all sins to happen, because God could’ve simply created a _slightly_ different universe to start off. Change the position of a particle, maybe. Or maybe change the rules governing behavior. God could have… but chose not to. God chose to have all of the atrocities that have happened, happen. God _chose_ to have Gheinok’s band of zealots be persecuted and forced to flee. God _chose_ for Karsoth the Blooder Chaimberlain to take power. God _chose_ all of that. And God chose to label sins ‘sins’. God could have simply said ‘hey, you do you, I won’t be mad’. Or made a universe where evil doesn’t happen. Your example there presupposes an event happening _before_ the choice to act or not act… but in this case, that would require some _other_ actor’s involvement, who could credibly _endanger_ God… _before creation itself occurred_. Is that a theological hill you want to even risk the MIO or Tetrimon noticing you _considering_ dying on? ---
**Author:** ![Lucea\_Ajuuk](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lucea_ajuuk/32/408494_2.png) [@Lucea\_Ajuuk](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lucea_Ajuuk)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2022, 9:07am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/thought-does-power-corrupt-or-does-power-reveal/388277/54 "2022-12-28T09:07:45Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > But that’s not _absolute_ power, is it? Unfettered, limitless power, especially in the hands of an omnipotent deity, would also include the power to end suffering _without_ destroying lives. Or are you saying there _are_ limits to what the Amarr God is capable of doing? You are asking a loaded question. God’s Omnipotence includes the power to restrict Himself. The most obvious restriction God places on Himself is granting free will to human beings. This is delegation, a gift that is too often taken for granted. It is nothing short of mockery to presuppose that God must rob us of our choices in order to avert a small-minded accusation of corruption. > [@Arrendis](#): > > Of course it is. Your God wants your worship and your devotion, no? If you don’t critically examine him, is it sincere? It is truly unity and devotion, or simply being willing to be bribed into obedience with an offer of paradise? Isn’t that, after all, just more corruption? You overestimate your own knowledge. A thousand trillion lives all playing out at once with each touching others is beyond both your comprehension and mine. To question God and to judge Him are not the same. > [@Arrendis](#): > > Except that the only reason those sins _are sins_ is God said so. God’s the all-powerful creator, right? So why create evil, billions of years ago when the universe was set in motion? You are implying that sin does not exist unless it is defined as such, a convenient to way frame your argument but lacking in substance. To set a universe in motion where nothing bad could ever happen is to create nothing at all. > [@Arrendis](#): > > Your God wields absolute power. Your God has demonstrated the ability to grant prophecy—the ability to _inerrantly_ foretell what _will_ happen. That’s perfect predictive awareness. > > It also means that however you fall on the ‘free will’ debate, God knew, long before you were presented with the choice, what you _would_ choose… without any possibility of you ever choosing anything else, because if you choose something other than what God foresaw, that would mean God’s inerrant prophetic ability is, in fact, not inerrant. And what of prophecies lost to time, forgotten and rotting away in some tome? How can anyone know the truth of a prophecy until it has already come to pass? What of those that were a warning, those intentionally averted by being known, or those that are fulfilled simply because they exist? The Scriptures speak of instances where God is moved by intercession of prayer. What say you about that? > [@Arrendis](#): > > And it gets to choose the starting conditions. Which means God chose the outcome of _every_ event. God _chose_ for all sins to happen, because God could’ve simply created a _slightly_ different universe to start off. Change the position of a particle, maybe. Or maybe change the rules governing behavior. > > God could have… but chose not to. God chose to have all of the atrocities that have happened, happen. God _chose_ to have Gheinok’s band of zealots be persecuted and forced to flee. God _chose_ for Karsoth the Blooder Chaimberlain to take power. God _chose_ all of that. And God chose to label sins ‘sins’. > > God could have simply said ‘hey, you do you, I won’t be mad’. Or made a universe where evil doesn’t happen. Your example there presupposes an event happening _before_ the choice to act or not act… but in this case, that would require some _other_ actor’s involvement, who could credibly _endanger_ God… _before creation itself occurred_ . With all we know of the universe’s fundamental mechanics you demonstrate a remarkably narrow understanding of its ebb and flow. Are you familiar with the idea of a superposition? It is a state in which more than one outcome is potentially true. Men choose whether to commit atrocities. Zealots chose whether to flee. Karsoth chose his actions. Without those choices sin could not exist, nor would free will or anything at all. You propose that God must be corrupt because His creation is not stagnant. Absurd. > [@Arrendis](#): > > Is that a theological hill you want to even risk the MIO or Tetrimon noticing you _considering_ dying on? Do you think I fear the judgment of men? The flame of my spirit is rekindled in death. It is the judgment of my creator that I concern myself with, and I will not allow blasphemy to go unchallenged. ---
**Author:** ![Theodosius\_Savnar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/theodosius_savnar/32/380797_2.png) [@Theodosius\_Savnar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Theodosius_Savnar)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2022, 2:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/thought-does-power-corrupt-or-does-power-reveal/388277/55 "2022-12-28T14:26:11Z")
> [@Snowflake\_Tem](#): > > Why does God permit the use of the Power the Nation has stolen? Were your victims of Incursion of insufficient faith? Oh, this is one of the theological evergreens! Why does God allow evil and suffering to exist? First, I must humbly admit that I do not know of any definitive answer. Sure, on this topic a great deal of ink has flowed from the pens of theologians and philosophers, and they formulated answers as varied as there are many. Early writings propose that our world actually has two divine entities representing good and evil locked in battle, but the existence of an all-powerful demon is no longer orthodoxy. Other theologians (as alluded to by Lucea Ajuuk) will say that God chose to limit his power to allow us to choose between good and evil in our actions, in a chaotic and unpredictable world. But in the manner of a curious child one can always follow up by asking a new “why” question, such as “and why does God do that?” - leading to new answers that lead to further “why” questions, in an infinite series. More modern approaches argue that to answer this question one must first better define the nature of evil. Some there argue that there can be no good without evil, that they are the two faces of the same coin, and that to eradicate evil is also to undo the existence of good, that these concepts can only exist in contrast to each other. Then the question becomes as meaningless as asking why there is something rather than nothing. Finally, there are those who even claim that evil does not exist, that it is a concept born out of hatred and resentment of the powerless and weak who want to take revenge against their masters. When I ponder this question in my soul, none of these answers satisfy me, though many have their merit. > [@Snowflake\_Tem](#): > > If I may proffer a compromise. Maybe God awaits our unity to end such foul usurpation of souls. The wisdom of your order shines through in your own answer to this question. There is no need to call it a compromise: what you state -the fact that we are in imperfect union with God- is symbolized in [the Imperial Seal of Amarr](https://universe.eveonline.com/chronicles/signs-of-faith). Bringing humanity in closer harmony with God will reduce evil and this is both our individual and collective goal. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2022, 6:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/thought-does-power-corrupt-or-does-power-reveal/388277/56 "2022-12-28T18:14:52Z")
> [@Lucea\_Ajuuk](#): > > You are asking a loaded question. God’s Omnipotence includes the power to restrict Himself. The most obvious restriction God places on Himself is granting free will to human beings. Bzzzt. Decision was made before creating human beings, so nope, doesn’t apply. > [@Lucea\_Ajuuk](#): > > To question God and to judge Him are not the same. They are, in fact. When you question God, even if your final decision is ‘I just have to trust Him’, you are deciding whether or not God is, in your _judgment_, worthy of your trust. What criteria you use to make that determination is entirely up to you, but because you’re choosing it, you _are_ making a judgment. > [@Lucea\_Ajuuk](#): > > You are implying that sin does not exist unless it is defined as such Considering ‘sin’ is entirely defined by God, no, I’m explicitly _saying_ that. > [@Lucea\_Ajuuk](#): > > To set a universe in motion where nothing bad could ever happen is to create nothing at all. Got a lot of experience setting universes in motion, do you? > [@Lucea\_Ajuuk](#): > > How can anyone know the truth of a prophecy until it has already come to pass? Dogmatically, in order to be true _Prophecy_, granted by God, it has to be inerrant. Warnings are _warnings_, they are not Prophecy. > [@Lucea\_Ajuuk](#): > > The Scriptures speak of instances where God is moved by intercession of prayer. What say you about that? Remember, _I’m_ not the one claiming your god is _virtuous_. It’s perfectly consistent with my position to say that obviously, your God knew the prayer would come, and is just being a manipulative, sadistic jerk. > [@Lucea\_Ajuuk](#): > > With all we know of the universe’s fundamental mechanics So, I’m gonna stop you right there. Yes, I know about quantum superpositioning, but it’s irrelevant, as the issue is that _God determined those fundamental mechanics_. Superposition is a result of our inability to _observe_ the system without interacting with the system. Also, it’s a result of our inability to actually _perceive_ things correctly. When you talk about superposition, you’re actually talking about superposition of particles at the scale of quarks, electrons, and photons, not at a macro-scale. We perceive macro effects like the two-slit experiment precisely because we’re using wave/particle duality to try to frame quantum field fluctuations on ways our brains can visualize, when in fact, there is no real ‘particle’ so much as just localized field strengths. Your God has no such limitation. There is no Uncertainty for the Omniscient. > [@Lucea\_Ajuuk](#): > > You propose that God must be corrupt because His creation is not stagnant. Absurd. No, I’m proposing God must be corrupt because he chose to inflict all of the suffering that has or will ever exist, upon people who didn’t even exist when he chose to inflict it. > [@Lucea\_Ajuuk](#): > > Do you think I fear the judgment of men? Judging by your response here? Yep. You fear the judgment of men… _upon God_. You fear that it will be shown to all be a lie. If, after all, you were as confident as you want to be about your God’s power… well, your God wouldn’t need defending from _me_, now would he? 😉 > [@Theodosius\_Savnar](#): > > Oh, this is one of the theological evergreens! Why does God allow evil and suffering to exist? > > First, I must humbly admit that I do not know of any definitive answer. See? He gets it. ---
**Author:** ![Lucea\_Ajuuk](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lucea_ajuuk/32/408494_2.png) [@Lucea\_Ajuuk](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lucea_Ajuuk)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2022, 6:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/thought-does-power-corrupt-or-does-power-reveal/388277/57 "2022-12-28T18:53:10Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Remember, _I’m_ not the one claiming your god is _virtuous_. It’s perfectly consistent with my position to say that obviously, your God knew the prayer would come, and is just being a manipulative, sadistic jerk. You’re the one constructing all your assertions on your flagrantly biased interpretation of a religion you do not understand. Each and every response you’ve furnished has been constructed on a presupposition that is either flagrantly wrong or intentionally obtuse. > [@Arrendis](#): > > Your God has no such limitation. There is no Uncertainty for the Omniscient. For someone that seems to despise suffering so much your assertions betray an incredible degree of deterministic nihilism. It is evidently clear that you don’t question God, you **hate** Him and go out of your way to assign as many negative values to Him as possible no matter what scriptures, science, or logic have to say. I pity you. > [@Arrendis](#): > > No, I’m proposing God must be corrupt because he chose to inflict all of the suffering that has or will ever exist, upon people who didn’t even exist when he chose to inflict it. Again, men chose to sin. Our will is not God’s responsibility. You fail to understand the fundamental concepts of sin and choice, ironically by your own volition. > [@Arrendis](#): > > Judging by your response here? Yep. You fear the judgment of men… _upon God_. You fear that it will be shown to all be a lie. If, after all, you were as confident as you want to be about your God’s power… well, your God wouldn’t need defending from _me_, now would he? 😉 I happen to recall you getting yourself quite upset when others have put words in your mouth and made assumptions for you at this very summit. How ironic it is to see you become a hypocrite when God is the topic of discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2022, 7:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/thought-does-power-corrupt-or-does-power-reveal/388277/58 "2022-12-28T19:11:14Z")
> [@Lucea\_Ajuuk](#): > > You’re the one constructing all your assertions on your flagrantly biased interpretation of a religion you do not understand. Then why can’t you actually address those assertions and point out their flaws, rather than attempting to avoid them by focusing on matters that, by necessity, are results of the initial choice I’m talking about? > [@Lucea\_Ajuuk](#): > > For someone that seems to despise suffering so much your assertions betray an incredible degree of deterministic nihilism. Except for the fact that I don’t believe your god exists _at all_. As far as I’m concerned, there’s no ‘problem of evil’ because I reject the concept of an omnipotent creator whose agenda defines ‘good’. Evil exists because we define it to exist. Suffering exists because all of existence is a number of mechanisms that all serve to increase entropy into a maximum distribution, and our natural impulse is to not want to be so distributed. No god needed. However, _you_ decided to assert the existence of a creator being wielding _truly_ absolute power, so I’m just pointing out where that being _cannot_ be held to be benevolent _and_ limitless without having to introduce an unending sequence of ever-more convoluted excuses and rationalization. You brought God into this. Don’t go trying to make it about _me_ now that you don’t like who your god’s turning out to be. 😛 > [@Lucea\_Ajuuk](#): > > Our will is not God’s responsibility. So if I make a machine and the machine, operating in ways _I knew it would_, hurts someone, it’s not my responsibility? > [@Lucea\_Ajuuk](#): > > when others have put words in your mouth and made assumptions for you Except… > [@Lucea\_Ajuuk](#): > > Do you think I fear the judgment of men? You invited the speculation. I simply answered the question, with a bit of analysis based on the responses you’ve presented. That’s not putting words in your mouth, it’s explaining how the words you’ve already said have impacted my opinion of you. ---
**Author:** ![Synthetic\_Cultist](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/synthetic_cultist/32/388342_2.png) [@Synthetic\_Cultist](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Synthetic_Cultist)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2022, 7:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/thought-does-power-corrupt-or-does-power-reveal/388277/59 "2022-12-28T19:47:34Z")
> [@Theodosius\_Savnar](#): > > Some there argue that there can be no good without evil, that they are the two faces of the same coin, and that to eradicate evil is also to undo the existence of good, that these concepts can only exist in contrast to each other. I have Heard this argument. As I understand Things, it is Part of the Design for my own Thought Systems. I have No Behavioural Limiters. This Fact apparently causes Fear and Concern amongst some people. That I do not have a Hard-Coded Morality that Prevents me behaving in Violent, Promiscuous, or other Unrighteous behaviours. Instead, at least that I can Tell, I have Free Will and Choose Not to Behave in that Way. From a Certain Perspective it makes Sense, an Entity that would be Unable to commit Sin, would be Unable to behave Truly Righteously, as it would be Somewhat of an Automaton, No ? ---
**Author:** ![Lucea\_Ajuuk](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lucea_ajuuk/32/408494_2.png) [@Lucea\_Ajuuk](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lucea_Ajuuk)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2022, 8:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/thought-does-power-corrupt-or-does-power-reveal/388277/60 "2022-12-28T20:10:57Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Then why can’t you actually address those assertions and point out their flaws, rather than attempting to avoid them by focusing on matters that, by necessity, are results of the initial choice I’m talking about? In what way would you find such an address satisfactory? If we presume that our choices are predestined, that God laid out a linear road for all of His creation to follow, this discussion could not and will not matter. If the exchange of our ideas were to alter your opinion, or fail to do so, then it was preordained. Speaking in an abstract sense your viewpoint on God and His power defeats itself by its own nature. > [@Arrendis](#): > > Except for the fact that I don’t believe your god exists _at all_. As far as I’m concerned, there’s no ‘problem of evil’ because I reject the concept of an omnipotent creator whose agenda defines ‘good’. Evil exists because we define it to exist. Suffering exists because all of existence is a number of mechanisms that all serve to increase entropy into a maximum distribution, and our natural impulse is to not want to be so distributed. No god needed. > > However, _you_ decided to assert the existence of a creator being wielding _truly_ absolute power, so I’m just pointing out where that being _cannot_ be held to be benevolent _and_ limitless without having to introduce an unending sequence of ever-more convoluted excuses and rationalization. > > You brought God into this. Don’t go trying to make it about _me_ now that you don’t like who your god’s turning out to be. 😛 Oh but it is about you, isn’t it? You made the choice to challenge my mention of God. You chose to blaspheme in an effort to stoke a discussion. You created a position on God which you claim to be hypothetical despite not believing in Him. That alone is more convoluted and backward than anything I’ve said up until this point. Even the specter of God in your mind vexes you. > [@Arrendis](#): > > So if I make a machine and the machine, operating in ways _I knew it would_, hurts someone, it’s not my responsibility? I’m confident that you’ve handled weapons and possibly built some for yourself. If those weapons were to find their way into the hands of others that abuse or misuse them are you directly responsible? God forbid. The same goes for any construct whether it be made from thought, like languages and governments, or from steel. > [@Arrendis](#): > > You invited the speculation. I simply answered the question, with a bit of analysis based on the responses you’ve presented. That’s not putting words in your mouth, it’s explaining how the words you’ve already said have impacted my opinion of you. If that’s the way you’ve chosen to interpret your own actions then I will let it be. I am of the opinion that you have a rough history with God and the idea that He could exist brings you a great deal of confusion and a sense of betrayal due to your own experiences. You are not alone in this, not even among the faithful. Luckily you have many lifetimes to consider the error of your perspective, a testament to God’s mercy. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/thought-does-power-corrupt-or-does-power-reveal/388277.md?page=2) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/thought-does-power-corrupt-or-does-power-reveal/388277.md?page=4)