# Thoughts on the Wardec Changes (from a member of Pirat) **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [March 14, 2019, 2:39am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/thoughts-on-the-wardec-changes-from-a-member-of-pirat/145981 "2019-03-14T02:39:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Natural\_CloneKiller](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/natural_clonekiller/32/387890_2.png) [@Natural\_CloneKiller](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Natural_CloneKiller)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2019, 6:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/thoughts-on-the-wardec-changes-from-a-member-of-pirat/145981/21 "2019-03-14T18:22:08Z")
I’m fine with the changes, but we forget one thing. CCP clearly state that the impact of War decs = Drop in player retention. I am interested to see the data throughout this whole agenda for change in the impact war dec changes has on player retention. Data please CCP. (when it becomes available). ---
**Author:** ![Faylee\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/faylee_freir/32/439750_2.png) [@Faylee\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Faylee_Freir)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2019, 6:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/thoughts-on-the-wardec-changes-from-a-member-of-pirat/145981/23 "2019-03-14T18:36:49Z")
Yup I just made this argument in the same topic on Reddit… The CSM requested that CCP release to them the data behind Wardecs and player retention. As far as we know there was no other data related to a player activity and retention that was released. There’s no baseline… nothing to compare it to. I don’t deny that wardecs have had negative effects on player retention over the years, but is it any worse than other things that happen? We don’t know, but we assume it’s the worst only because it’s the only data that CCP has provided us on retention. * * * What I find interesting is that CCP says that wardecs effect player retention, yet in the same CSM Minutes they say that new players are not specifically targeted by wars, and that’s evident if you examine this data: [https://www.evedata.org/killmailStatistics](https://www.evedata.org/killmailStatistics) So is being killed while at war the culprit? Is the the sheer terror of being wardec’d? Should we blame the shoddy CEO’s that tell these new players to stay docked up or to play another game? Yeah the Wardec system has been far from ideal while CCP chose to ignore it, but there is more at play than just “wardecs are the devil”. > [@Rocket\_Hellfire](#): > > High-sec indy bully. That is literally all you are. Am I though? If all I am is a “High-sec indy bully” does that make you a casual bottom feeder crybaby? ---
**Author:** ![Jazzmyn](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jazzmyn/32/409785_2.png) [@Jazzmyn](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jazzmyn)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2019, 7:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/thoughts-on-the-wardec-changes-from-a-member-of-pirat/145981/24 "2019-03-14T19:35:50Z")
You are too late with your ideas. ---
**Author:** ![JUSTIFIED\_ARROGANCE](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/justified_arrogance/32/263131_2.png) [@JUSTIFIED\_ARROGANCE](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/JUSTIFIED_ARROGANCE)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2019, 7:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/thoughts-on-the-wardec-changes-from-a-member-of-pirat/145981/25 "2019-03-14T19:39:27Z")
> [@Faylee\_Freir](#): > > What this does is actively encourages gameplay where you’re pursuing combat. It’s not reliant on timers that can be spread over ridiculous periods of time. Sure it can be “effort” to try to catch and kill someone that is using guerrilla warfare tactics himself, but there’s plenty of my Highsec associates that are very skilled in this. So what of the Highsec PVE corp with no teeth to bite with? Well luckily this is a change that can better bolster guns for hire. They have the option to pay another entity to properly hunt and kill these aggressors. Tired of your brainless idiots feeding on their way to a trade hub? Well you can pay for assistance! You mention that nullsec is basically disingenuous when they make certain statements about highsec and that their goal is to make highsec wardecs into n+1 style pvp and perhaps you were justified, however, this statement you have made is blatantly disingenuous as you know that most wars complete with ZERO kills on either side. You are trying to push the content back to where you can quick kill and then dock in an NPC station and basically suffer zero losses with 100% concord immunity. I would say that if you plan on calling others out for disingenuous statements then perhaps you should not be making disingenuous statements a paragraph or two later in the same post. ---
**Author:** ![Faylee\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/faylee_freir/32/439750_2.png) [@Faylee\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Faylee_Freir)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2019, 7:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/thoughts-on-the-wardec-changes-from-a-member-of-pirat/145981/26 "2019-03-14T19:57:22Z")
> [@Jazzmyn](#): > > You are too late with your ideas. Probably, but I wanted to go ahead and voice my opinion. Maybe I can point to this a year or two from now and show how I was right. > [@JUSTIFIED\_ARROGANCE](#): > > You mention that nullsec is basically disingenuous when they make certain statements about highsec and that their goal is to make highsec wardecs into n+1 style pvp and perhaps you were justified, however, this statement you have made is blatantly disingenuous as you know that most wars complete with ZERO kills on either side. You are trying to push the content back to where you can quick kill and then dock in an NPC station and basically suffer zero losses with 100% concord immunity. > > I would say that if you plan on calling others out for disingenuous statements then perhaps you should not be making disingenuous statements a paragraph or two later in the same post. It’s not hard to see why Nullsec wants what they want with the gameplay favoring N+1. A large reason why they want it that way is because it’s much easier to throw numbers at a structure rather than take the time and effort to learn highsec mechanics and use them to your favor in order to set proper traps and such. I don’t blame them for advocating gameplay that directly benefits them, but these changes are supposed to make Highsec better. In the eye of the average Nullblock citizen, Highsec is better without wars and I disagree with that. I want changes to the system, but it’s gotta be changes that make sense. My proposal puts ending the wardec into the hands of those that find themselves motivated to do so. If a group finds themselves to be too weak, inexperienced, or uninterested then they can use the services of established mercs that would love to operate on their behalf. They are the type of players that use the same tactics and approach as we do to get kills on us. If this happens with the bolstering of other mechanics like booshing and limited watchlist functionality, then you will bet that a 3rd party can effectively and efficiently end the war on behalf of a client. * * * I’m not being disingenuous because I’m advocating for smaller groups that can effectively hunt players such as myself. I want that risk / reward / conflict here, and I realize that structures can accomplish the same thing but it feels hollow when it’s not about superior strategy but about who can get more people in fleet. ---
**Author:** ![Solstice\_Projekt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/solstice_projekt/32/503293_2.png) [@Solstice\_Projekt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Solstice_Projekt)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2019, 7:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/thoughts-on-the-wardec-changes-from-a-member-of-pirat/145981/27 "2019-03-14T19:58:39Z")
> [@JUSTIFIED\_ARROGANCE](#): > > most wars complete with ZERO kills on either side Worth adding to this that, the last time CCP talked about the numbers, they’ve said they’ve actually registered an increase of kills in wars since the first changes. ---
**Author:** ![Buoytender\_Bob](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/buoytender_bob/32/374377_2.png) [@Buoytender\_Bob](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Buoytender_Bob)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2019, 8:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/thoughts-on-the-wardec-changes-from-a-member-of-pirat/145981/28 "2019-03-14T20:00:29Z")
Any plan proposed must allow both sides to enjoy the experience in some way or the prey is just going to say f you and either not engage or quit. Good luck convincing CCP and PA if any other plan design is offered. ---
**Author:** ![Solstice\_Projekt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/solstice_projekt/32/503293_2.png) [@Solstice\_Projekt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Solstice_Projekt)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2019, 8:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/thoughts-on-the-wardec-changes-from-a-member-of-pirat/145981/29 "2019-03-14T20:03:48Z")
The N+1 problem can be solved. … I’m confused about the problem with it. ---
**Author:** ![Faylee\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/faylee_freir/32/439750_2.png) [@Faylee\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Faylee_Freir)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2019, 8:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/thoughts-on-the-wardec-changes-from-a-member-of-pirat/145981/30 "2019-03-14T20:04:32Z")
> [@Solstice\_Projekt](#): > > The N+1 problem can be solved. How do suggest that it can be solved if structures remain as proposed? ---
**Author:** ![JUSTIFIED\_ARROGANCE](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/justified_arrogance/32/263131_2.png) [@JUSTIFIED\_ARROGANCE](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/JUSTIFIED_ARROGANCE)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2019, 8:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/thoughts-on-the-wardec-changes-from-a-member-of-pirat/145981/31 "2019-03-14T20:06:59Z")
Apparently you are under the impression that if you keep making the same disingenuous statements over and over eventually they will become increasingly genuine in tone and content but i can assure you that this will not happen no matter how many times you reiterate your disingenuous comments. You want to basically return to the one thing that is worse than n+1 combat, that is consequence free killing in highsec space. You find this ‘fun and reasonable game play’, it is neither. ---
**Author:** ![Faylee\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/faylee_freir/32/439750_2.png) [@Faylee\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Faylee_Freir)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2019, 8:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/thoughts-on-the-wardec-changes-from-a-member-of-pirat/145981/32 "2019-03-14T20:29:33Z")
You obviously didn’t read the OP. The defender has the power to stop the war and get 2 weeks of breathing room, which fulfills CCP and the communities desire for win conditions. This isn’t a return to how it was previously because we can now end wars as a defender. I’m super curious how you think this will all go down or really change things? You do realize that in-between timers we’ll still be farming Jita in the usual way. You do realize that if we’re forced to continue ploping down Raitaru’s, we can? Why not give incentive to players to interrupt and interact with us while we do the usual war thing? So what’s going to happen with the current proposed change from CCP is that… not much changes, except now there’s a fake moral victory that Nullsec can have. ---
**Author:** ![Solstice\_Projekt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/solstice_projekt/32/503293_2.png) [@Solstice\_Projekt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Solstice_Projekt)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2019, 8:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/thoughts-on-the-wardec-changes-from-a-member-of-pirat/145981/33 "2019-03-14T20:48:09Z")
Excuse me, but when I started typing this post I’ve noticed that there are things about this that don’t seem to add up … and that maybe we all are looking at this from the wrong perspective. Question! Why would you assume that the vast majority of people, who engage in wars, will somehow be affected by nullseccers, mercenaries and the N+1 problem? \*\*added “mercenaries”. ---
**Author:** ![Faylee\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/faylee_freir/32/439750_2.png) [@Faylee\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Faylee_Freir)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2019, 8:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/thoughts-on-the-wardec-changes-from-a-member-of-pirat/145981/34 "2019-03-14T20:50:50Z")
> [@Solstice\_Projekt](#): > > Why would you assume that the vast majority of people, who engage in wars, will somehow be affected by nullseccers and the N+1 problem? I think that the majority of people involved with wars belong to one of the major groups that will draw attention from Nullsec groups that have long-time wanted to see mercenaries have skin in the game. Sure there are plenty others that use wars for various purposes, but I think they are the minority. ---
**Author:** ![Tipa\_Riot](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tipa_riot/32/443513_2.png) [@Tipa\_Riot](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tipa_Riot)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2019, 8:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/thoughts-on-the-wardec-changes-from-a-member-of-pirat/145981/35 "2019-03-14T20:56:36Z")
The biggest wars in Highsec are fought by nullsec blocs, all the rest is irrelevant compared to that. ---
**Author:** ![Solstice\_Projekt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/solstice_projekt/32/503293_2.png) [@Solstice\_Projekt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Solstice_Projekt)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2019, 8:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/thoughts-on-the-wardec-changes-from-a-member-of-pirat/145981/36 "2019-03-14T20:58:44Z")
> [@Faylee\_Freir](#): > > _I think_ they are the minority. Have you actually looked at the data gatherable via ESI ? ---
**Author:** ![Faylee\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/faylee_freir/32/439750_2.png) [@Faylee\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Faylee_Freir)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2019, 9:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/thoughts-on-the-wardec-changes-from-a-member-of-pirat/145981/37 "2019-03-14T21:02:36Z")
Nope, should we ask Pedro to pull that data? I’ll have to go read the minutes but CCP was making a big deal abut the “big 5” so I assumed that naturally we have more players from the wardec community in these groups. If data supports that we’re a minority in Highsec, then I think my point still stands… You have a 5 man corp with a Raitaru that likely won’t result in any content because of your average Highsec carebear. It won’t draw the attention of a large null bloc either, so what does the structure accomplish aside from providing some psychological pampering to the defender? ---
**Author:** ![Solstice\_Projekt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/solstice_projekt/32/503293_2.png) [@Solstice\_Projekt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Solstice_Projekt)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2019, 9:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/thoughts-on-the-wardec-changes-from-a-member-of-pirat/145981/38 "2019-03-14T21:03:59Z")
Define “big” and explain why your definition is relevant. I’m not intentionally attemping to be perceived as an ass, I’m trying to get a point across, which I believe is being overlooked. ---
**Author:** ![Tipa\_Riot](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tipa_riot/32/443513_2.png) [@Tipa\_Riot](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tipa_Riot)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2019, 9:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/thoughts-on-the-wardec-changes-from-a-member-of-pirat/145981/39 "2019-03-14T21:09:48Z")
Seeing 500 plus people fighting every couple of days in Perimeter etal, even CCP admits the numbers are dominated by the conflict between Test and Horde. ---
**Author:** ![Solstice\_Projekt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/solstice_projekt/32/503293_2.png) [@Solstice\_Projekt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Solstice_Projekt)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2019, 9:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/thoughts-on-the-wardec-changes-from-a-member-of-pirat/145981/40 "2019-03-14T21:26:22Z")
Well, you could ask me as well. I’ve written the code to pull the data **fast** and spent a significant amount of time doing so. Several times over, thanks to certain Wars in the database being ■■■■■■, messing with my results. GRRRR CCP! The vast majority of players in highsec, let’s call them 99.99%, are neither mercenaries nor _relevant_ nullseccers. You probably know the “I HAVE FRIENDS IN NULLSEC” guys who never deliver, because no one down there truly gives a ■■■■ about some random ass bottom feeding line member whining about ■■■■ happening in highsec. You’re right that CCP saw the “big 5” as a reason to change wars, but it seems unreasonable to assume that they would design a game mechanic as far reaching as Wars around you, as mercenaries, specifically. It would be a gigantic waste of dev time, thus money, to do so. You guys definitely are a minority relative to the 99.99%, no matter how you look at it, and because “you”, even as a collective of mercenaries, can not put a significant dent into the everlasting structure spam, it seems even more unreasonable to assume that these changes really are aimed at “the big ones”. CCP **mainstreamed** Wars by simplifying the costs and giving them a clear objective. That objective is aimed at people who want to remove structures, with CCP’s (likely) stealthy goal of reducing the everlasting structure spam. “Mercenaries” isn’t a “playstyle”. The _only_ difference between mercenaries, small gangs and medium sized blobs is the fact that you take money for shooting someone, or something. That’s pretty meaningless in context of game design and mechanics. The changes to War are not comparable to changes to, for example, exploration or industry. Changes to Wars **always affect all of highsec** , which means **all** of its members. Everyone. Including those who don’t want to participate. Therefore, based on this train of thoughts, it appears to be **invalid** to assume that the changes are specifically aimed at mercenaries. Do you understand why I believe that people are looking at this the wrong way? I made the same mistake. It’s an easy mistake to make, really, because everyone’s apparently doing it. Yet it simply makes no sense after looking at the bigger picture. I’m going to pull the Wars since the changes and report on it tomorrow. ---
**Author:** ![Natural\_CloneKiller](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/natural_clonekiller/32/387890_2.png) [@Natural\_CloneKiller](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Natural_CloneKiller)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2019, 9:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/thoughts-on-the-wardec-changes-from-a-member-of-pirat/145981/41 "2019-03-14T21:46:13Z")
I think its important to say that there is a big community in High sec Mercs that just want a good fight. We fly bling because we like putting small gangs together and all we actually want is to win a fight where we are outnumbered, backs against the wall due to better fitting and good fleet tactics. Unfortunately, this just does not happen enough. Most of us have done Null, WH and Low sec and gravitated towards high sec for the desire for small scale sub-cap pvp without the threat of cap escalation. I’m hoping the changes bring some more fights to high sec. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/thoughts-on-the-wardec-changes-from-a-member-of-pirat/145981.md?page=1) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/thoughts-on-the-wardec-changes-from-a-member-of-pirat/145981.md?page=3)