# Time to do away with SP penalty T3 cruisers **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [August 15, 2020, 8:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/time-to-do-away-with-sp-penalty-t3-cruisers/260488 "2020-08-15T20:15:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Tak\_Goden](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tak_goden/32/260085_2.png) [@Tak\_Goden](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tak_Goden)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2020, 8:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/time-to-do-away-with-sp-penalty-t3-cruisers/260488/1 "2020-08-15T20:15:52Z")
They’ve been nerfed, they are no longer the monster ships they used to be (I’ll set my opinion on the nerfs aside for this post). The extreme penalty for loss of the ship was worth it pre-nerf, at their current level of strength the loss of skill points upon ship destruction is no longer a reasonable penalty. CCP it is time to end the ridiculous SP loss penalty on T3 cruisers. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![DeMichael\_Crimson](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/demichael_crimson/32/514115_2.png) [@DeMichael\_Crimson](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/DeMichael_Crimson)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2020, 8:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/time-to-do-away-with-sp-penalty-t3-cruisers/260488/2 "2020-08-15T20:22:26Z")
I agree 100%. This should have been done back when T3 Cruisers were nerfed. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2020, 8:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/time-to-do-away-with-sp-penalty-t3-cruisers/260488/3 "2020-08-15T20:24:55Z")
Agree. T3 are just the shadow of their former self. HAC, command ships, stratios, they are better than none. ---
**Author:** ![Brun\_Warbear](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brun_warbear/32/380353_2.png) [@Brun\_Warbear](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brun_Warbear)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2020, 9:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/time-to-do-away-with-sp-penalty-t3-cruisers/260488/4 "2020-08-15T21:31:32Z")
Agree, I don’t think it was a particularly good mechanic in the first place. Ship power should be balanced against cost IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2020, 11:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/time-to-do-away-with-sp-penalty-t3-cruisers/260488/5 "2020-08-15T23:47:44Z")
**PATCH NOTES FOR 2023-03-17.1** **FEATURES & CHANGES** **Balancing:** **Tech III Cruisers (Legion, Loki, Proteus, Tengu):** - The T3 cruiser line was reevaluated in terms of cost, output, and penalties. According to internal data, and community feedback, we have isolated the skill point penalty upon ship destruction as a particular issue with these hulls. We want all players to be able to use any hull they want according to their need, without regard to non-ship-related factors. As such, it was decided to remove this inequality by applying the skill point penalty to all other hulls that utilize a particular hull skill. Shuttles will remain unaffected. * * * (lol) (100% agree as someone who uses T3 ships for PvP that this is a dumb game mechanic.) > [@Brun\_Warbear](#): > > Ship power should be balanced against cost IMO. Not entirely sure about this… In some cases, stuff that is total crap is still expensive simply due to the difficulty inherent in acquisition. I would say that cost probably _shouldn’t_ be the driving factor for power. That logic leads to the “ISK-tanking” arguments that the bears use against ganking, et cetera. I would instead say that the cost of items should be balanced _to some degree_ against how long they take to train for, which is already the case, _but only kind of_. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2020, 11:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/time-to-do-away-with-sp-penalty-t3-cruisers/260488/6 "2020-08-15T23:52:10Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > In some cases, stuff that is total crap is still expensive simply due to the difficulty inherent in acquisition. I would say that cost probably _shouldn’t_ be the driving factor for power. That logic leads to the “ISK-tanking” arguments that the bears use against ganking, et cetera. The more concise argument against, is that cost is self balancing against ship power, therefore you can’t balance power against cost. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2020, 1:16am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/time-to-do-away-with-sp-penalty-t3-cruisers/260488/7 "2020-08-16T01:16:01Z")
Also, I’m expecting people to give arguments about why they still need that SP loss. I don’t get it, why ? ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2020, 1:25am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/time-to-do-away-with-sp-penalty-t3-cruisers/260488/8 "2020-08-16T01:25:16Z")
If we divide the player base into two main groups (PvE and PvP, or maybe “carebear” and “pirate”), _no one_ can find a reasonable argument for keeping this in the game. The PvPers don’t want the SP loss because they don’t want their enjoyment of a specific hull to be interrupted for 4 days every time they get blown up, and the PvEers don’t see any benefit in the SP loss because it’s not like if the PvPer loses one of these ships in a fight, they’ll log off for a few days while waiting for the skill to re-train, instead of just using _something else_ to do the killing in the meantime. It just so happens that the public opinion regarding this gameplay element is universal and bipartisan. And besides, these ships are expensive and skill-intensive enough that they don’t really need any other drawbacks. Just like clone costs. That was like one of **the** best changes CCP ever made, alongside the removal of learning skills. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2020, 1:27am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/time-to-do-away-with-sp-penalty-t3-cruisers/260488/9 "2020-08-16T01:27:52Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > _no one_ can find a reasonable argument for keeping this in the game. Well I can’t, but does not mean there is none. I also agree with that but I believe we may all miss something ! I think we should ask a CCP dev about this. Who’s in charge of balancing ? ---
**Author:** ![Derath\_Ellecon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/derath_ellecon/32/289725_2.png) [@Derath\_Ellecon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Derath_Ellecon)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2020, 2:14am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/time-to-do-away-with-sp-penalty-t3-cruisers/260488/10 "2020-08-16T02:14:47Z")
Why not put this in the player feature request forum? ---
**Author:** ![Geo\_Eclipse\_Oksaras](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/geo_eclipse_oksaras/32/500781_2.png) [@Geo\_Eclipse\_Oksaras](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Geo_Eclipse_Oksaras)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2020, 2:21am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/time-to-do-away-with-sp-penalty-t3-cruisers/260488/11 "2020-08-16T02:21:20Z")
It’s on the platform for a future CSM candidate to bring up when he’s elected. ---
**Author:** ![Oppih\_Nogard](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/oppih_nogard/32/272606_2.png) [@Oppih\_Nogard](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Oppih_Nogard)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2020, 3:43am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/time-to-do-away-with-sp-penalty-t3-cruisers/260488/12 "2020-08-16T03:43:41Z")
Sure: you ingenious fellows change the skills that players have developed in order to use more powerful ships. Why not NERF anything that you do not like. ---
**Author:** ![Geo\_Eclipse\_Oksaras](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/geo_eclipse_oksaras/32/500781_2.png) [@Geo\_Eclipse\_Oksaras](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Geo_Eclipse_Oksaras)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2020, 3:50am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/time-to-do-away-with-sp-penalty-t3-cruisers/260488/13 "2020-08-16T03:50:01Z")
Do you not understand what this topic is about? When you fly a T3 Cruiser, if you lose the ship, you LOSE SP for one of the subsystems. We want to prevent that from happening, since this class of ships were nerfed. ---
**Author:** ![Foggy\_Bernstein](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/foggy_bernstein/32/407887_2.png) [@Foggy\_Bernstein](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Foggy_Bernstein)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2020, 3:59am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/time-to-do-away-with-sp-penalty-t3-cruisers/260488/14 "2020-08-16T03:59:25Z")
Good God! It finally happened. I better jump in here with my agreement as well before some spoilsport ruins this perfect moment. ---
**Author:** ![Serene\_Repose](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/serene_repose/32/384960_2.png) [@Serene\_Repose](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Serene_Repose)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2020, 6:53am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/time-to-do-away-with-sp-penalty-t3-cruisers/260488/15 "2020-08-16T06:53:28Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > it was decided to remove this inequality by applying the skill point penalty to all other hulls that utilize a particular hull skill The extremes to which some will go to avoid admitting to have made a mistake. It’s breathtakingly stunning…sometimes…like now. If this is the route they’ve chosen, it’s best to just dump these ships altogether. ---
**Author:** ![Wanda\_Fayne](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wanda_fayne/32/377654_2.png) [@Wanda\_Fayne](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wanda_Fayne)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2020, 7:51am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/time-to-do-away-with-sp-penalty-t3-cruisers/260488/16 "2020-08-16T07:51:21Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > I don’t get it, why ? Because skill injectors cost money. ---
**Author:** ![Gerard\_Amatin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gerard_amatin/32/481361_2.png) [@Gerard\_Amatin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gerard_Amatin)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2020, 8:22am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/time-to-do-away-with-sp-penalty-t3-cruisers/260488/17 "2020-08-16T08:22:03Z")
On one hand, I think it’s interesting to have a special advanced ship line with harsher penalties for losing the ship than regular ships. An advanced ship line which is meant for advanced players who have nothing else useful to train, so that these players will always have something useful to keep training, provided they don’t die _too often_ and start lacking the skills to fly the ship. 😛 This mechanism of the T3Cs is interesting, yet the training time can be translated to an extra ISK penalty for loss by using skill injectors. This means it’s better to have a T3C alt with low total amount of skillpoints for cheaper injections, if you intend to fly (and lose) one often. It’s nice that this ship type encourages special dedicated alts, unlike a lot of other ships. On the other hand, it doesn’t seem like T3Cs are worth the SP loss anymore. My choice between removing the SP penalty and making T3Cs worth the SP penalty is in favour of the latter. I’d like to see more variety and think the SP penalty is interesting, but should be worth it. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2020, 8:33am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/time-to-do-away-with-sp-penalty-t3-cruisers/260488/18 "2020-08-16T08:33:17Z")
> [@Gerard\_Amatin](#): > > This mechanism of the T3Cs is interesting, yet the training time can be translated to an extra ISK penalty for loss by using skill injectors. No one is going to pay an extra _billion_ ISK (one large injector and two small ones), _on top of the ship’s replacement cost_, in order to get one more level of one subsystem skill trained instantly. It doesn’t matter how wealthy a player is; no one is _that_ wasteful, and it just doesn’t happen, _ever_. Never _ever_ ever. ---
**Author:** ![Gerard\_Amatin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gerard_amatin/32/481361_2.png) [@Gerard\_Amatin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gerard_Amatin)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2020, 8:37am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/time-to-do-away-with-sp-penalty-t3-cruisers/260488/19 "2020-08-16T08:37:47Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > No one is going to pay an extra _billion_ ISK (one large injector and two small ones), _on top of the ship’s replacement cost_ , in order to get one more level of one subsystem skill trained instantly. > > It doesn’t matter how wealthy a player is; no one is _that_ wasteful, and it just doesn’t happen, _ever_ . Never _ever_ ever. People inject SP for anything these days. Can you prove that _no one_ ever injected back their lvl 5 subsystem skills? Anyway, my argument was not _‘just inject the SP’_. My argument is that I’d rather have T3Cs be worth the SP loss. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2020, 8:45am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/time-to-do-away-with-sp-penalty-t3-cruisers/260488/20 "2020-08-16T08:45:44Z")
> [@Gerard\_Amatin](#): > > People inject SP for anything these days. Can you prove that _no one_ ever injected back their lvl 5 subsystem skills? Yes, I can: In order to do something like that, one would need either such a lack of intellect, or such extensive brain damage, that it would be _impossible_ for that person to perform the action of getting this game, installing it on their computer, and playing to the point where they reach the ability to pilot T3 ships. If, by some chance, they lost their mental capacity after reaching that point, then it’s highly unlikely that they would remember the password to their account. I suppose there’s a window of time in which the player is logged in, and _then_ suffers such a mentally-handicapping tragedy before having to log in again, making it possible for them to lose a T3 ship, and then, in their state of shock and stupor, to buy enough injectors to recoup their lost subsystem SP. But the odds of that are so low, that I’d estimate that two consecutive lightning strikes have a higher chance of happening. [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/time-to-do-away-with-sp-penalty-t3-cruisers/260488.md?page=2)