# To all foreigners wanting to understand the Minmatar, happy Liberation Day **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [July 10, 2021, 2:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-all-foreigners-wanting-to-understand-the-minmatar-happy-liberation-day/319433 "2021-07-10T14:46:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2021, 2:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-all-foreigners-wanting-to-understand-the-minmatar-happy-liberation-day/319433/1 "2021-07-10T14:46:40Z")
If you have found yourself struggling to understand the key nature of the Minmatar or wondering why the Liberation Games, I sincerely suggest you watch this: [![](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/a/a/f/aafa69721990389bbaf6f43f183732cdcdd52e0e.jpeg "EVE Online | THE MINMATAR REPUBLIC") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TE4WH6kKgS0) A masterpiece in evocative imagery and rising words by Grar’Olro Lightpainters and Sanmatar Maleatu Shakor, it very effectively captures what we are. We pride ourselves on our history of peace, but we are a people of war. Everybody serves. There are few adults, young or old, who cannot pick up a gun in a pinch. There is no child who does not know who The Enemy is. There is no respectable clan who cannot respond to ‘how will your livelihood serve in a war’. Signs that everybody knows - whether they like them or not - are the bloody hand and the raised fist and the lifted Khumaak. Calls we all recognize and are taught to heed are ‘never again another Long Night’ and ‘we come for our people’. For us, as a nation, peace is dear, but it is also largely history. It is _legend_. Where individual clans or worlds find peace, it is _temporary_, a shelter in a winter storm rather than the sun of spring. For we were burned to ashes by the Days of Darkness and re-forged: in centuries of preparation, in years of Rebellion, and in the decades of Vindication Wars. The one short attempt at peace we have had post-Rebellion almost led to a civil war. A civil war that in the end, eventually, even the most stubborn and hotheaded of us would have to admit we _cannot_ afford. We can kneel, but only to bide time until it is time to raise the Khumaak. We can run, but only to live to fight another day. We can hide, but only to gather our forces and strike again. We can live in peace, but only as long as the peace serves the one duty as well as or better as open war. And as the Liberation Games remind us, the defense of the Seven Tribes is the duty of us all. You do not have to _like_ what we are. But this _is_ what we are. Ally or Enemy, Triglavian or human, this is what you have to deal with, when you deal with us. _Strike the shield, expect the sword._ ---
**Author:** ![Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mizhara_del_thul/32/486150_2.png) [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mizhara_Del_thul)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2021, 3:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-all-foreigners-wanting-to-understand-the-minmatar-happy-liberation-day/319433/2 "2021-07-10T15:05:36Z")
In the fell clutch of circumstance I have not winced nor cried aloud. Under the bludgeonings of chance My head is bloody, but unbowed. Matari Invictus ---
**Author:** ![Morgana\_Tsukiyo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/morgana_tsukiyo/32/385507_2.png) [@Morgana\_Tsukiyo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Morgana_Tsukiyo)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2021, 3:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-all-foreigners-wanting-to-understand-the-minmatar-happy-liberation-day/319433/3 "2021-07-10T15:25:39Z")
In this day of your celebration, a gift from one of our wise: _The light of a candle_ _Is transferred to another candle—_ _Spring twilight_ ---
**Author:** ![Katya\_Hilitari](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/katya_hilitari/32/424643_2.png) [@Katya\_Hilitari](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Katya_Hilitari)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2021, 5:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-all-foreigners-wanting-to-understand-the-minmatar-happy-liberation-day/319433/5 "2021-07-10T17:20:42Z")
Regular guns don’t work underwater, where most of the wildlife on Krirald lives. We still learned how to use them, though. Just in case we had to. ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2021, 8:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-all-foreigners-wanting-to-understand-the-minmatar-happy-liberation-day/319433/6 "2021-07-10T20:39:04Z")
> [@Amicia\_Cora](#): > > I don’t suspect my words will reach the people that need to hear them the most, but I believe them to be important to say regardless. What are those words, exactly? What are you proposing? > [@Amicia\_Cora](#): > > I hope today and every other brings you one step closer towards embracing the just cause we _all_ must come to serve. What cause is that? ---
**Author:** ![Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mizhara_del_thul/32/486150_2.png) [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mizhara_Del_thul)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2021, 9:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-all-foreigners-wanting-to-understand-the-minmatar-happy-liberation-day/319433/7 "2021-07-10T21:18:09Z")
> [@Amicia\_Cora](#): > > “We are what the Empire made us into!” It is what it is. We were a people of peace. Then the Day of Darkness came, and we became a people of war. You _still_ come for our people. You _still_ try to obliterate all that we are. Whatever may be left once all is said and done will probably not be much… but it’ll be a damn sight more than the utter darkness you would leave if we allowed you to achieve _your_ goals. ---
**Author:** ![Sahara\_Jackal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sahara_jackal/32/296697_2.png) [@Sahara\_Jackal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sahara_Jackal)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2021, 10:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-all-foreigners-wanting-to-understand-the-minmatar-happy-liberation-day/319433/8 "2021-07-10T22:36:41Z")
> [@Amicia\_Cora](#): > > The something I feel compelled to say is this: despite all of the merits your people display - camaraderie, resolve, _durability_ - no would-be nation can sustain itself, or indeed build its identity, solely on its penchant for war. I hope my fellow Faithful will forgive me for daring to humour the thought even in the most hypothetical of terms, but even were God’s most Holy light to dim, even if the Republic were to wipe Holy Amarr from the face of this cluster, what shape would the nation you had built on the premise of war take once there was no war left to wage? What sense of identity could sustain it when there was no longer any perceived enemy to obfuscate the burning question of who you are in _yourselves_, rather than whom you are solely in relation to said enemy? In such a scenario, you would be left with nothing but a void, and with no sense of meaning or identity, be left only with the option of devouring yourselves in a desperate attempt to perpetuate the conflict upon which you rely. Oh, darling Ms. Cora. Please accept my sincerest wishes for you to well and truly ■■■■ _ALL the way off_ with this classic Amarrian (but ridiculously reductivist) take on Minmatar society. I know it sticks in your Imperial craw; _how dare these Matari manage not merely to survive–but thrive–and do so on their own terms?_ To my own shame, it took hearing the same false criticism about the Triglavian Collective for me to understand just how ignorant it is. And for everyone else reading Ms. Cora’s arguments, a word of caution from someone who took far too long to learn otherwise: Never attempt to fathom the depths of Amarrian patronization–_that’s_ a hole with no bottom. ---
**Author:** ![Veskin\_Sentinel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/veskin_sentinel/32/506480_2.png) [@Veskin\_Sentinel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Veskin_Sentinel)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 1:57am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-all-foreigners-wanting-to-understand-the-minmatar-happy-liberation-day/319433/9 "2021-07-11T01:57:06Z")
> [@Amicia\_Cora](#): > > The something I feel compelled to say is this: despite all of the merits your people display - camaraderie, resolve, _durability_ - no would-be nation can sustain itself, or indeed build its identity, solely on its penchant for war. I hope my fellow Faithful will forgive me for daring to humour the thought even in the most hypothetical of terms, but even were God’s most Holy light to dim, even if the Republic were to wipe Holy Amarr from the face of this cluster, what shape would the nation you had built on the premise of war take once there was no war left to wage? What sense of identity could sustain it when there was no longer any perceived enemy to obfuscate the burning question of who you are in _yourselves_, rather than whom you are solely in relation to said enemy? In such a scenario, you would be left with nothing but a void, and with no sense of meaning or identity, be left only with the option of devouring yourselves in a desperate attempt to perpetuate the conflict upon which you rely. Nicely put, Miss Cora, definitely something to think about, but I think you are missing a little detail. Matari do not strive to destroy or wipe out Amarr. If they would do such thing, they would do it in a self-defense manner, as a means to make the constant oppression, coming from the enemy, to stop. As I see it, Minmatar folks just want to be left alone, to take care of their own and exchange goods and works in good will between their allies. They are forged in combat in the recent hundreds of centuries, and can you blame them - when Amarr keeps coming to them, trying to make their proud people bend the knee to them. But yes, a nation should not build its structure and mindset with the sole intent to destroy an enemy. As you said, it would leave them with no purpose, whether they win or lose in the end. This applies to other nations conflicts that we see today. However, in the case of Minmatars, they have a higher goal - to preserve their nation, ensure its well-being. I am sure they haven’t forgotten what they fight for, despite all these years of struggles. ---
**Author:** ![Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gaven_lok_ri/32/293159_2.png) [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gaven_Lok_ri)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 6:13am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-all-foreigners-wanting-to-understand-the-minmatar-happy-liberation-day/319433/10 "2021-07-11T06:13:22Z")
> [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](#): > > The one short attempt at peace we have had post-Rebellion almost led to a civil war. A civil war that in the end, eventually, even the most stubborn and hotheaded of us would have to admit we _cannot_ afford. And this is why I believe the Republic has _already lost._ A state that requires an external war to avoid civil war is in deep trouble, especially when it is surrounded by neighbors like Amarr and the Federation that are well out of its weight class. ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 6:17am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-all-foreigners-wanting-to-understand-the-minmatar-happy-liberation-day/319433/11 "2021-07-11T06:17:16Z")
I believe I answered this in the first post: you - or me - don’t have to like it, but it is what it is. Maybe one day we will change; maybe a day will come when the Ray’s vision can be fully realized. But that day will likely never come while we are under pressure, when there’s still The War to fight. ---
**Author:** ![Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gaven_lok_ri/32/293159_2.png) [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gaven_Lok_ri)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 6:29am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-all-foreigners-wanting-to-understand-the-minmatar-happy-liberation-day/319433/12 "2021-07-11T06:29:46Z")
It never will change. If Matar won “The War”–or more accurately if Amarr _lost_ it by self destructive acts–the tribes would start brandishing Kri’tak at the Federation the very next day. And at every step of the struggle the Tribes will continue to promote those who are good at war over those who are capable of imagining a future without it. Every Ray will be replaced by a Shakor until the movement self destructs. This is the fate of all violent rebellions against order. Edit to add: You are entirely right that it is what it is, though. There is no changing the course Tribal culture is on. It will reach its warrior’s end, no matter how anyone works to stop it. The only question is how much will be left to rebuild from when the war machine finally runs out of fuel. ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 6:54am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-all-foreigners-wanting-to-understand-the-minmatar-happy-liberation-day/319433/13 "2021-07-11T06:54:58Z")
We have already shown us capable of changing as situation warrants, many times over. Many people believed in The Ray and even our current government shows enough restraint to make the continued defense possible. We’re a people of _war_, Gaven Lok’ri; not one of mindless destruction. War takes skill, it takes cunning and strategy and patience and diplomacy, all the quiet virtues, as much as it takes strength or courage or other boisterous ones. The times were not ready for the Ray in YC102. But I have not lost hope that when the time come, we will adapt to peace, too. ---
**Author:** ![Luwc](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/luwc/32/281730_2.png) [@Luwc](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Luwc)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 7:12am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-all-foreigners-wanting-to-understand-the-minmatar-happy-liberation-day/319433/14 "2021-07-11T07:12:06Z")
As Caldari I don’t understand the Minmatar to begin with. Once liberated they almost instantly started bending the knee to their knew Gallente Masters. That the Gallente have a history of oppression, somewhat similar to the Amarr goes without saying. Where as the Amarr conquered by force and subversion. The Gallente did so by subversion and force. Our peoples have more in common as you may think. Both fighting for their liberation from their oppressors. Retaking their homeworld and striking back at the Subjugators. I care little for the Amarr. It is an Alliance out of necessity. However with the Minmatar I can identify. Perhaps it is time to reshape the Universe… ---
**Author:** ![Veskin\_Sentinel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/veskin_sentinel/32/506480_2.png) [@Veskin\_Sentinel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Veskin_Sentinel)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 8:46am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-all-foreigners-wanting-to-understand-the-minmatar-happy-liberation-day/319433/15 "2021-07-11T08:46:21Z")
Violent rebellions against order. Is this how Amarr sees the Matari when they try to push the boot that the Empire tries to put on their necks? The Republic has its own internal order, that, while not perfect, has worked quite fine for the most part. Why would they accept Empire’s order, especially when it is _violently_ enforced upon them? Even if Amarr has the best intentions towards Minmatar, trying to teach them the ways of their religion, to tell them about God, the methods for this cannot be oppressive, no matter how much the Empress and the Church think they love all other nations, who are not like them. And if we look at the “fruits of Empire’s works”, they do not taste well. Even during the Triglavian invasion, where we saw Matari besides Amarr, Gallente besides Caldari, fighting to preserve what we call our home-worlds - even then the Ammar command took oppressive actions in Floseswin and not only (correct me if I am wrong, I am tired, been working a lot, memory not fresh enough at times). It is sad when our nations unite only in the presence of a greater threat. But in that regard if you think Matari are prone to self-destruction, look at Amarr, they are just as prone to this, if not more. And this only shows that the Empire has more enemies within itself, rather than enemies from the outside. How much of your religion is blind tradition and how much of it is based on divine interventions and writings? Look for the answers. Look deep. I remember what Jamyl Sarum did to tone down slavery practices among the Empire and I still have deep respect towards her, may she rest in peace. And again - a humble word of wisdom: You will know them by the fruit they give. Gotta take a step back, maybe more than one step, and look at the deeds of every large nation in the cluster. And each of them has its dirty crimes, but from all of them Matari are the most sincere and straightforward. They fight the good fight. ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 8:59am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-all-foreigners-wanting-to-understand-the-minmatar-happy-liberation-day/319433/16 "2021-07-11T08:59:58Z")
> [@Veskin\_Sentinel](#): > > Why would they accept Empire’s order, especially when it is _violently_ enforced upon them? Because for someone faithful to the Amarrian God, there are no different orders, there is only _the_ order. And that is another like it or not, it is what it is, matter. ---
**Author:** ![Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gaven_lok_ri/32/293159_2.png) [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gaven_Lok_ri)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 9:00am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-all-foreigners-wanting-to-understand-the-minmatar-happy-liberation-day/319433/17 "2021-07-11T09:00:10Z")
> [@Veskin\_Sentinel](#): > > Violent rebellions against order. Is this how Amarr sees the Matari Certainly. ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 1:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-all-foreigners-wanting-to-understand-the-minmatar-happy-liberation-day/319433/19 "2021-07-11T13:36:17Z")
> [@Amicia\_Cora](#): > > Loyal service to God, ma’am. And this is why we cannot have nice things. The goal of getting people to let go of their own gods and to serve yours is inherently hostile. Even if you never pursue it with anything but words and smiles, your goal is to _end_ us, to stop us from living freely as we are, to have us _submit_. That goal can never be peaceful. Similarly; > [@Amicia\_Cora](#): > > Unfortunately, Ms. Rhiannon disagrees with you [in no uncertain terms](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/excubitoris-chapter-on-rooting-out-internal-enemies/309589/22). I would feel much more comfortable were your interpretation of the Republic’s goals to prove correct. While destroying the Empire (that I said my nation would do if they could) is different from wiping out Amarr (which I did not say was the general goal), it is a goal that we have to have in mind in _defense_ to the above. And even if we did it by gentle means of subversion, it would still inherently involve ending your culture’s key tenets. Such as loyal service to God for all. Unlike you and yours, I have the courtesy to not dance around the fact that our nations as they are are inherently incompatible. We cannot peacefully co-exist unless one or the other of us will either be changed beyond recognition, submitting to giving away what it considers the basic tenet of human existence. You can take that as a threat. It is not one, however. If you tell me how to solve this riddle, I am all ears. (Just to be clear: “Just serve my God” is not the solution. It’s been tried. It did not work.) ---
**Author:** ![Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mizhara_del_thul/32/486150_2.png) [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mizhara_Del_thul)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 3:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-all-foreigners-wanting-to-understand-the-minmatar-happy-liberation-day/319433/20 "2021-07-11T15:59:15Z")
> [@Amicia\_Cora](#): > > It saddens me to hear such misunderstanding and emptiness. I pray for the day the Lord’s light finds you. It is the outright stated intent and goal of the Empire to eradicate our culture, our beliefs and thus all that we are. There is no misunderstanding here, it is the words and goals of your superiors, your leaders and your scriptures. The Reclaiming does not leave room for anything else. This is darkness. It is obliteration. It is why there can be no peace. ---
**Author:** ![Sahara\_Jackal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sahara_jackal/32/296697_2.png) [@Sahara\_Jackal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sahara_Jackal)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 6:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-all-foreigners-wanting-to-understand-the-minmatar-happy-liberation-day/319433/21 "2021-07-11T18:28:14Z")
> [@Amicia\_Cora](#): > > Curious. In one context, you berate me for showing the willingness to collaborate in good faith with Matari loyalists towards achieving our shared goals, branding my organisation treasonous to Holy Amarr for doing so - implying that we should only ever seek to destroy them. Then in another context you paint me as their enemy, only looking to undermine or destroy them, berating me for not approaching them in good faith. > > Call me cynical if you must, Jackal, but I can’t help but feel that you only say whatever you opportunistically think will drive a wedge between your enemies. I wonder whether you truly believe in _anything_ at all? Pointing out the obscene levels of hypocrisy you and your LUMEN colleagues display _to your own alleged ideals_ is entirely independent of my critique of those same ideals. Bad enough that your principles are flawed, but you can’t even be bothered to _abide by them_. Pathetic. ---
**Author:** ![Erwin\_Kroner](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/erwin_kroner/32/378866_2.png) [@Erwin\_Kroner](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Erwin_Kroner)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 11:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-all-foreigners-wanting-to-understand-the-minmatar-happy-liberation-day/319433/22 "2021-07-11T23:47:27Z")
It’s chillingly simple. The Gallente saw an opening to cripple the Amarr, and used it. The same can be said on our part when the Amarr decided to put us last on their Reclaiming list because it is easier for them to deal with the Gallente this way. The fact is, we have a lot in common with the Minmatar, from our history to our missile systems. But it’s the _friends_ we made that we disagree on. Things would probably be very different if both of the larger empires cease to be a threat to our survival. [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-all-foreigners-wanting-to-understand-the-minmatar-happy-liberation-day/319433.md?page=2)