# TO Crowd Control Productions, CSM & Eve Community **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [March 29, 2021, 9:56am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-crowd-control-productions-csm-eve-community/302846 "2021-03-29T09:56:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Evelyn\_Kravitz](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/evelyn_kravitz/32/264140_2.png) [@Evelyn\_Kravitz](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Evelyn_Kravitz)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 3:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-crowd-control-productions-csm-eve-community/302846/63 "2021-03-29T15:23:24Z")
Hi LilSteel, Firstly I am not talking about any Sociology at all. Please do not take these replies by others at a face value but rather a misinterpretation of my intended message. Coming to your main points:- Before any socail interaction between two individuals , there exists a communication barrier. There are barriers everywhere. And yes they did not create them in the first place but in a sandbox, it is the responsibility for the developers to provide a means through which they can be overcome. This is simple game design and not sociology. ---
**Author:** ![lilsteel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lilsteel/32/272085_2.png) [@lilsteel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/lilsteel)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 3:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-crowd-control-productions-csm-eve-community/302846/64 "2021-03-29T15:23:55Z")
Not about sociology, ok… ---
**Author:** ![lilsteel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lilsteel/32/272085_2.png) [@lilsteel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/lilsteel)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 3:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-crowd-control-productions-csm-eve-community/302846/65 "2021-03-29T15:26:34Z")
From practical experience, I can usually deduce the practical experience others have about knowledge and understanding, and how, their lack of perception about communication may lead them to believe they are not creating the barriers they seek to create to try to use those barrier to actually solve problems they think they have with understanding when in fact it’s not the case and their perception is what makes them in sync with that level of disconnect with reality. The fact is, communication gap, not barrier happen, when, people try to make money from them. ---
**Author:** ![lilsteel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lilsteel/32/272085_2.png) [@lilsteel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/lilsteel)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 3:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-crowd-control-productions-csm-eve-community/302846/66 "2021-03-29T15:28:04Z")
That is also the reasons for the different economies under the UN and , globally, differences in costs of living. From agreement about those communication gaps. ---
**Author:** ![Evelyn\_Kravitz](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/evelyn_kravitz/32/264140_2.png) [@Evelyn\_Kravitz](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Evelyn_Kravitz)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 3:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-crowd-control-productions-csm-eve-community/302846/67 "2021-03-29T15:28:35Z")
You are deviating from the original sub problem. ---
**Author:** ![lilsteel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lilsteel/32/272085_2.png) [@lilsteel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/lilsteel)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 3:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-crowd-control-productions-csm-eve-community/302846/68 "2021-03-29T15:28:53Z")
That is also why the global economy is based on the US dollar, not because the US dollar has to pay others, even if they provided security. ---
**Author:** ![lilsteel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lilsteel/32/272085_2.png) [@lilsteel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/lilsteel)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 3:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-crowd-control-productions-csm-eve-community/302846/69 "2021-03-29T15:29:20Z")
> [@Evelyn\_Kravitz](#): > > You are deviating from the original sub problem. Let me verify. What is the original sub problem? ---
**Author:** ![Mkikaden\_Tiragen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mkikaden_tiragen/32/243913_2.png) [@Mkikaden\_Tiragen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mkikaden_Tiragen)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 3:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-crowd-control-productions-csm-eve-community/302846/70 "2021-03-29T15:29:51Z")
> [@lilsteel](#): > > > [@Mkikaden\_Tiragen](#): > > > > I am sorry if I misunderstood you. > > Just to claim some lack of understanding which is not expected to be since it takes knowledge to understand knowledge to know how to understand understanding and put that understanding in practice, > is to keep secrets secret, is hardly cooperating at all with the fact it is not secret nor intended to be in this case. What? As best I can parse this (the lack of proper punctuation in this sentence makes it a little challenging), you are saying that I should have been able to understand your earlier communication because you weren’t writing anything that was secret - which I can only assume is intended to mean ‘convoluted’ or ‘obfuscated’ in this context. The way you write is not in line with the English conventions for sentence structure or word usage with which I was raised; this is where my lack of understanding comes from. Not all people have the same experiences, so what seems perfectly transparent to you is not perfectly transparent to me. We have different experiences with language, and yours is sufficiently outside my familiarity to be difficult to parse. Regardless if whether you think you are being clear, I _cannot understand_ some of what you are saying. That doesn’t make either of us wrong, bad, difficult, or anything else negative. ---
**Author:** ![Evelyn\_Kravitz](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/evelyn_kravitz/32/264140_2.png) [@Evelyn\_Kravitz](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Evelyn_Kravitz)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 3:30pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-crowd-control-productions-csm-eve-community/302846/71 "2021-03-29T15:30:23Z")
> **Retention as it stands is divided into two main sub-problems:-** > (1) Communication Barrier > (2) Lack of good incentives or difficult to find any ; in relation to the different playstyles > > **And Additional problems related to the sub-problems:-** > (3) The ability to sustain that playstyle when it has been found upon > (4) _The inability to form groups to expand upon the playstyle._ ---
**Author:** ![lilsteel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lilsteel/32/272085_2.png) [@lilsteel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/lilsteel)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 3:30pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-crowd-control-productions-csm-eve-community/302846/72 "2021-03-29T15:30:58Z")
> [@Evelyn\_Kravitz](#): > > You are deviating from the original sub problem. Let me verify. What is the original sub problem? And, how is it deviating from it? And , how am I deviating from it (the sub problem you referred to that I implied that you referred to since there was no other subject related you may have inferred in your communication) ? ---
**Author:** ![lilsteel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lilsteel/32/272085_2.png) [@lilsteel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/lilsteel)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 3:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-crowd-control-productions-csm-eve-community/302846/73 "2021-03-29T15:31:36Z")
Yes, which one, 1 2 3 or 4? Or which multiples? ---
**Author:** ![Mkikaden\_Tiragen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mkikaden_tiragen/32/243913_2.png) [@Mkikaden\_Tiragen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mkikaden_Tiragen)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 3:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-crowd-control-productions-csm-eve-community/302846/74 "2021-03-29T15:32:20Z")
> [@Evelyn\_Kravitz](#): > > > **Retention as it stands is divided into two main sub-problems:-** > > (1) Communication Barrier > > (2) Lack of good incentives or difficult to find any ; in relation to the different playstyles > > > > **And Additional problems related to the sub-problems:-** > > (3) The ability to sustain that playstyle when it has been found upon > > (4) _The inability to form groups to expand upon the playstyle._ **Fill in the summary** Premise: Player retention is a problem for EVE Online Argument: Low player retention is caused by the listed factors. Evidence: ??? Solution: ??? ---
**Author:** ![lilsteel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lilsteel/32/272085_2.png) [@lilsteel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/lilsteel)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 3:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-crowd-control-productions-csm-eve-community/302846/75 "2021-03-29T15:33:09Z")
> [@Mkikaden\_Tiragen](#): > > (the lack of proper punctuation in this sentence makes it a little challenging), ah ah ah Maybe you want to add the punctuation that suits you best for your own need for the level of understanding you need about that understanding you referred, which , since you stated you didn’t , I too do not have. I mean, you are not giving it to me. ---
**Author:** ![Evelyn\_Kravitz](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/evelyn_kravitz/32/264140_2.png) [@Evelyn\_Kravitz](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Evelyn_Kravitz)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 3:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-crowd-control-productions-csm-eve-community/302846/76 "2021-03-29T15:33:14Z")
Give me some time to type. 🙂 I can’t keep up with your speed. ---
**Author:** ![Mkikaden\_Tiragen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mkikaden_tiragen/32/243913_2.png) [@Mkikaden\_Tiragen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mkikaden_Tiragen)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 3:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-crowd-control-productions-csm-eve-community/302846/77 "2021-03-29T15:34:18Z")
Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![lilsteel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lilsteel/32/272085_2.png) [@lilsteel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/lilsteel)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 3:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-crowd-control-productions-csm-eve-community/302846/78 "2021-03-29T15:35:16Z")
> [@lilsteel](#): > > Yes, which one, 1 2 3 or 4? > Or which multiples? Well, I’ll be waiting, maybe there lies the diversion you were referring to that you thought I was the one doing when it’s most likely someone else intending me to do it or make me seem like if I did. I mean, also, deviating and diverting can be similar with specific difference but with certain points related to each others. ---
**Author:** ![lilsteel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lilsteel/32/272085_2.png) [@lilsteel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/lilsteel)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 3:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-crowd-control-productions-csm-eve-community/302846/79 "2021-03-29T15:37:13Z")
First analyze the problem, then, find what the problem is. Once that is done, you can formulate more clear and concise solutions, even if you can find better ones later. When the first parts are not done, the certainty ratio for the solution is affected from it, no matter what. ---
**Author:** ![lilsteel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lilsteel/32/272085_2.png) [@lilsteel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/lilsteel)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 3:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-crowd-control-productions-csm-eve-community/302846/80 "2021-03-29T15:38:28Z")
By the way, I don’t suggest you try to understand Special Operations more than you should. That does include both try and actual fact. ---
**Author:** ![Evelyn\_Kravitz](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/evelyn_kravitz/32/264140_2.png) [@Evelyn\_Kravitz](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Evelyn_Kravitz)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 3:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-crowd-control-productions-csm-eve-community/302846/81 "2021-03-29T15:39:30Z")
So LilSteel and Mkikaden. You got it wrong haha. The premise is not about the player retention as a problem in eve online but rather looking at eve online as a platform which suffers from a high fluctuating rate of consumer usage. Retention is not a problem. Its not a fixed problem. Its a continuous problem. The solutions to a continous problem become outdated after a certain period of time . The evidence is what I don’t have nor I will never have. Because I can not acess the data to how many new players have signed up on eve online and how many of those new players continue after 1 month. That data, crowd control has. Do not look at rentention as a problem that is of the past but as a something that comes up time and time again when Crowd Control implements a patch or brings in a new quadrant. To understand rentention, we must look at the core issues that gave rise to it in the first place. After that, once we realise that these issue have remain present throughout 18 years of eve ; the solution You need to look at retention both at individual and group level. One possible solution is to identify the incentive trade-off that happens on how a given playstyle is affected. There are multiple solutions to the various sub problems that I have not talked about . But I really hope you got the whole point of it. ---
**Author:** ![lilsteel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lilsteel/32/272085_2.png) [@lilsteel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/lilsteel)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2021, 3:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-crowd-control-productions-csm-eve-community/302846/82 "2021-03-29T15:41:21Z")
> [@Mkikaden\_Tiragen](#): > > The way you write is not in line with the English conventions for sentence structure or word usage with which I was raised; this is where my lack of understanding comes from. Not all people have the same experiences, so what seems perfectly transparent to you is not perfectly transparent to me. We have different experiences with language, and yours is sufficiently outside my familiarity to be difficult to parse. Regardless if whether you think you are being clear, I _cannot understand_ some of what you are saying. That doesn’t make either of us wrong, bad, difficult, or anything else negative. You mean you want me to do the work, in the writing, so that it takes me more time to write it, which after I could automate the work, while you could claim I did the work for nothing, because you didn’t plan to understand it in the first place? [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-crowd-control-productions-csm-eve-community/302846.md?page=3) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-crowd-control-productions-csm-eve-community/302846.md?page=5)