# To end The War **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [September 2, 2017, 3:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-end-the-war/21511 "2017-09-02T15:58:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2017, 3:05am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-end-the-war/21511/526 "2017-11-11T03:05:08Z")
> [@Diana\_Kim](#): > > As for the Doomsday weapon… it is still just a weapon, and as any weapon it does have instruction, and it does have aiming system. If you will start shooting it in all the directions, of course, that will bring “death that is indiscriminate”. A professional soldier should know, how to point a weapon. Diana, which of the following statements do you dispute? 1. Caldari Prime was, during the battle, a planet with a population that included civilians, including children, on both sides of the conflict. 2. Heth ordered the firing of _Shigeru_’s doomsday on ground targets on Caldari Prime. 3. The Caldari Navy determined that following that order would have resulted in an ‘extinction-level event’ on Caldari Prime. 4. An ‘extinction-level event’ would have killed hundreds of millions, if not billions, of the civilians on Caldari Prime. ---
**Author:** ![Tannia\_Ambrye](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tannia_ambrye/32/410653_2.png) [@Tannia\_Ambrye](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tannia_Ambrye)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2017, 4:38am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-end-the-war/21511/527 "2017-11-11T04:38:20Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > > [@Valerie\_Valate](#): > > > > Tell that to the Jin-Mei. > > Clearly, they didn’t object strongly enough. Well, I suppose they may not feel they have the power to or the Jin-Mei might see some sort of advantage to the name change. But if you’re trying to say, Ms Valate, that the Federation forcing name changes of the planets of other races excuses the shortcomings of the Amarr then I have to disagree. That would only be an appeal to hypocrisy. If you’re trying to change Federation attitudes towards other races, like the Jin-Mei and the Caldari, then I agree with you. The Federation can be a bit patronizing sometimes, to put it mildly. ---
**Author:** ![Diana\_Kim](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/diana_kim/32/382972_2.png) [@Diana\_Kim](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Diana_Kim)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2017, 4:45am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-end-the-war/21511/528 "2017-11-11T04:45:02Z")
1. obvious 2. unconfirmed 3. made up 4. by definition ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2017, 4:54am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-end-the-war/21511/529 "2017-11-11T04:54:06Z")
so official statements by the Caldari Navy are now considered to be ‘Made up’ by a self important independent capsuleer who believes their presence in the milita denotes some kind of official standing. How fascinating. ---
**Author:** ![Diana\_Kim](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/diana_kim/32/382972_2.png) [@Diana\_Kim](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Diana_Kim)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2017, 4:55am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-end-the-war/21511/530 "2017-11-11T04:55:11Z")
> [@Nomistrav](#): > > Madam Kim, I assure you that the value of a human life is far more than can be simply measured, let alone by an algorithm. Whereas the operator sees only numbers, the recipient of the end of life knows none. Death is personal; relative. In many cultures, death is considered ultimate. To handwave away someone else’s life as merely a variable in a system is foolhardy, for we cannot measure the value of one life against any other. Pretty much we can, Mr. Nomistrav, but it extends outside of the scope of this discussion. > [@Nomistrav](#): > > **_Furthermore, we cannot estimate what has not happened._** You say that a Doomsday is a weapon, and a weapon can be precise, but there is little precision in a weapon that glasses the earth, irradiates the air, and sourers the water. Set aside your differences with Madam Priano, and understand that she references a quote made by none other than The Caldari Navy itself in that the Shigeru’s Doomsday would have killed everyone on the planet, regardless of faction or creed. EXACTLY! Finally!! “Furthermore, we cannot estimate what has not happened.” This. So true. Now, why the heck we even discuss that? We shall discuss what happened, and what happened is not “doomsday fire”, but gallente treacherous attack, that lead to the catastrophe. Fallen Shiigeru. Dead people. Broken treaty. Gallente invasion. Gallente luring of Shiigeru to low orbit. These are things we must talk about, these are things we must not forget, and these are the events we must deliver justice for. All the hurt that was brought to Caldari Prime was done neither by Caldari, nor by Executor Heth, nor by Admiral Yanala, but by Gallente, as planetary bombardment 200 years ago, and the Highlander four years ago. Of course we can’t judge gallente for the bombardment that happened 200 years ago, as everyone involved are long dead, but it tells us, who gallente are. And now we have actual crime, that happened 4 years ago and that they must answer for. D. Kim, Strike Commander, State Protectorate, CMC, Caldari State. ---
**Author:** ![Makoto\_Priano](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/makoto_priano/32/383919_2.png) [@Makoto\_Priano](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Makoto_Priano)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2017, 5:54am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-end-the-war/21511/531 "2017-11-11T05:54:56Z")
> [@Diana\_Kim](#): > > 1. obvious > 2. unconfirmed > 3. made up > 4. by definition 1. [Are you calling Chief Executive Mininela Erinen is a liar](https://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/breaking-news-yanala-forced-into-tea-maker-ceremony/)? Because he gave sworn testimony, verified by technical means as truthful, about the event. You claim to be a citizen under the Caldari Navy. Do you believe the man leading the Caldari Navy in the highest capacity was untruthful? 2. [This statement was issued by the Caldari Navy](https://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/shiigeru-telemetry-data-vindicates-admiral-yanala/). Are you saying the Caldari Navy misled the public about the danger of a Doomsday strike on Caldari Prime? Kim, you claim to be a dutiful and loyal citizen of the State. If you are, you’d best damned well act like one, or admit that your claims are basest lie. ---
**Author:** ![Diana\_Kim](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/diana_kim/32/382972_2.png) [@Diana\_Kim](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Diana_Kim)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2017, 9:26am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-end-the-war/21511/532 "2017-11-11T09:26:30Z")
> [@Makoto\_Priano](#): > > Are you calling Chief Executive Mininela Erinen is a liar? Because he gave sworn testimony, verified by technical means as truthful, about the event. You claim to be a citizen under the Caldari Navy. Do you believe the man leading the Caldari Navy in the highest capacity was untruthful? Of course no, I am calling YOU a liar. I have to admit though, that I’ve missed one interesting passage… “Further interrogation revealed additional details of encounter, including Yanala admitting to disobeying orders to fire on Caldari Prime and defiantly drinking the tea as punishment for ever following Heth in the first place. Erinen revealed she was intimidated by the Provists and unable to countermand the order.” “As punishment for ever following Heth…”… It feels… not right. But whatever she did, she took the tea herself like Caldari for what she felt she did wrong, and I am not going to judge her. And yet, I will stand on “unconfirmed”, until I will see “and the Oblivion was not going to be fired” and “disobeying orders to fire on Caldari Prime” in a single official sentence, explicitly stating what of ship weapon she needed to use on the ground, and where she should have used doomsday weapon on (because if I’d be piloting that ship, my doomsday would hit that Nyx at once, while giving planetary support with auxiliary capital-sized launcher turrets - that Leviathan can have up to six, and that bombardment could glass hostile infestations with ease). Also, Admiral Erinen is a woman. How many more people are you going to lie about? > [@Makoto\_Priano](#): > > This statement was issued by the Caldari Navy. Are you saying the Caldari Navy misled the public about the danger of a Doomsday strike on Caldari Prime? At least read what you link, screaming creature. “acted … in the ship’s final moments.” “Admiral Yanala disabled all volatile systems on board … the doomsday device had been taken offline … preventing it from entering an active cooldown phase” “These acts prevented an extinction-level event … and other health complications from debris” If you still didn’t manage to realize what was it about - I’ll make it simple. It was not about SHOOTING doomsday. It was about falling ship with activated modules including whole damn activated doomsday module. > [@Makoto\_Priano](#): > > If you are, you’d best damned well act like one, or admit that your claims are basest lie. How about you follow your own advice? It’s you, not me, who are the infamous liar of IGS. ---
**Author:** ![Nomistrav](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nomistrav/32/278296_2.png) [@Nomistrav](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nomistrav)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2017, 5:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-end-the-war/21511/533 "2017-11-11T17:01:34Z")
> [@Diana\_Kim](#): > > Pretty much we can, Mr. Nomistrav, but it extends outside of the scope of this discussion. No, Madam Kim, it does not extend outside the scope of this discussion; it is the very core of this discussion. For if we place a value on human life, then someone must be the arbitrator of that value, and that insinuates that his life is worth more solely because he says so. This is not the case, and will never be the case. You would give your life willingly for the State, I would imagine, but it is your life to give. It cannot be demanded of you by crazed and corrupt men. That is not sacrifice, that is _murder_. > [@On another topic](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/21522/530): > > EXACTLY! Finally!! “Furthermore, we cannot estimate what has not happened.” This. So true. > Now, why the heck we even discuss that? We shall discuss what happened, and what happened is not “doomsday fire”, but gallente treacherous attack, that lead to the catastrophe. No, Madam Kim, I will not allow you to detract or deflect your way away from the lesson I was so willing to teach you, and thus will repeat it: > [@Nomistrav](#): > > But it is more than that - it is not just the value of human life at stake. It is the very essence of the Caldari lifeblood and home: Caldari Prime. To what was all of this violence worth if the Shigeru’s mission of securing the planet in the name of the State if it was to be used to glass the planet and everyone occupying it, Caldari or Gallente? > [@Nomistrav](#): > > This is at the core of the controversy, Madam Kim. It is not just the lives of State Citizens whom - as you say - would be willing to give their lives. It is not just the planet of Caldari Prime and her cold mountains. It is the fact that Tibus Heth ordered the planet destroyed and all that the Caldari have fought for be in vain solely to keep his enemy from having it. It was never about killing more Gallente than Caldari, it was about keeping the Gallente from ever having it again, regardless of circumstance, and that meant that every Caldari Loyalist who fought for it died in vain. In an instant, you have delivered unto yourself conflict: That the value of a life can be determined by another, and that that life can be extinguished on a whim, but what of the measure and accomplishments of said life? The value cannot be determined without considering this, and if you are to consider the value of State Citizens lives _without considering their efforts at Caldari Prime_, you not only admit that those efforts were in vain, but more, that their lives should be extinguished _in spite_ of their efforts at Caldari Prime, in that they would die _quite literally_ at the very place they lived and defended, making it all for nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Anabella\_Rella](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anabella_rella/32/504852_2.png) [@Anabella\_Rella](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anabella_Rella)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2017, 6:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-end-the-war/21511/534 "2017-11-11T18:37:00Z")
I ask again, why are you people continuing to engage the vile troll Kim in any sort of debate? She is incapable of understanding anything beyond her own narrow, xenophobic views and cannot be swayed by logic or independently verified facts. To put it bluntly: _DO NOT FEED THE TROLL!_ ---
**Author:** ![Aradina\_Varren](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aradina_varren/32/398702_2.png) [@Aradina\_Varren](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aradina_Varren)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2017, 6:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-end-the-war/21511/535 "2017-11-11T18:38:15Z")
If we keep her busy here, maybe she’ll keep her ■■■■■■■■ here rather than going to other threads to antagonize people. Also you can’t tell me what to do. ---
**Author:** ![Anabella\_Rella](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anabella_rella/32/504852_2.png) [@Anabella\_Rella](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anabella_Rella)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2017, 6:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-end-the-war/21511/536 "2017-11-11T18:42:37Z")
I obviously have no authority over anyone other than myself, Pilot. I was merely making a (proven to work) suggestion. ---
**Author:** ![Davlos](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/davlos/32/175547_2.png) [@Davlos](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Davlos)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2017, 11:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-end-the-war/21511/537 "2017-11-11T23:22:08Z")
I like big butts. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2017, 12:45am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-end-the-war/21511/538 "2017-11-12T00:45:29Z")
Don’t lie. ---
**Author:** ![Diana\_Kim](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/diana_kim/32/382972_2.png) [@Diana\_Kim](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Diana_Kim)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2017, 1:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-end-the-war/21511/539 "2017-11-12T13:28:45Z")
> [@Anabella\_Rella](#): > > To put it bluntly: DO NOT FEED THE TROLL! Nobody feeds you. Just shut up. ---
**Author:** ![Lasairiona\_Raske](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lasairiona_raske/32/467893_2.png) [@Lasairiona\_Raske](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lasairiona_Raske)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2017, 1:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-end-the-war/21511/540 "2017-11-12T13:40:34Z")
> [@Davlos](#): > > I like big butts. _facepalm_ ---
**Author:** ![Diana\_Kim](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/diana_kim/32/382972_2.png) [@Diana\_Kim](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Diana_Kim)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2017, 1:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-end-the-war/21511/541 "2017-11-12T13:54:54Z")
> [@Davlos](#): > > I like big butts. Thanks for displaying your intelligence level once again. But I think you have already made yourself a name in the Summit already with your… “comments”. We don’t need further reminders about your condition. ---
**Author:** ![kul\_Shaishi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kul_shaishi/32/245841_2.png) [@kul\_Shaishi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/kul_Shaishi)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2017, 6:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-end-the-war/21511/542 "2017-11-12T18:24:52Z")
Thanks for displaying your intelligence level once again. But I think you have already made yourself a name in the Summit already with your… “comments”. We don’t need further reminders about your condition. Kim ---
**Author:** ![Jehoshaphat\_Ambraelle](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jehoshaphat_ambraelle/32/513430_2.png) [@Jehoshaphat\_Ambraelle](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jehoshaphat_Ambraelle)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2017, 5:39am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-end-the-war/21511/543 "2017-11-14T05:39:14Z")
To those of you still arguing over the power of the Oblivion Doomsday, I did some math! > **[Doomsday Math](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/doomsday-math/39211)** > > Note to viewers linked from IGS, this contains RL information. Due to this discussion on the IGS, I decided to do some math to figure out the effect the Oblivion doomsday might have if applied to a planet All of these calculations are supposed to... Kim, this is definately an extincion - level weapon. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2017, 6:46am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-end-the-war/21511/544 "2017-11-14T06:46:12Z")
> [@Jehoshaphat\_Ambraelle](#): > > To those of you still arguing over the power of the Oblivion Doomsday, I did some math! Badly. ---
**Author:** ![Elmund\_Egivand](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elmund_egivand/32/11038_2.png) [@Elmund\_Egivand](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elmund_Egivand)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2017, 6:49am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-end-the-war/21511/545 "2017-11-14T06:49:33Z")
Have you good math to share? [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-end-the-war/21511.md?page=26) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-end-the-war/21511.md?page=28)