# To My Minmatar Cousins **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [October 29, 2019, 8:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-my-minmatar-cousins/198341 "2019-10-29T20:46:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2019, 6:52am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-my-minmatar-cousins/198341/41 "2019-11-02T06:52:14Z")
Wouldn’t considering any specific marks to be ‘good’ or ‘bad’ be part and parcel of ‘superstition and bigotry’? Obviously, I can’t speak for everyone, and I’m making no statements about anyone beyond my immediate experience. Thus the ‘in my experience’. That said… _in my experience_, a decade ago at PTS, the discriminatory aspect of certain marks was decidedly less prevalent among my cohort at PTS than in our instructors, and I don’t see a _particular_ reason for that trend to have reversed. ---
**Author:** ![Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gaven_lok_ri/32/293159_2.png) [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gaven_Lok_ri)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2019, 7:11am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-my-minmatar-cousins/198341/42 "2019-11-02T07:11:11Z")
That seems a reasonable observation, albeit anecdotal. I am quite curious to see how other Minmatar respond to the idea that the Ray of Matar doesn’t signify anything special, though. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2019, 7:56am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-my-minmatar-cousins/198341/43 "2019-11-02T07:56:40Z")
There’s a strong case to be made that the Ray was a matter of self-fulfilling superstition, though. The Voluval was given specific significance, and as a result, Karin Midular’s life takes a particular turn. Schooling, expectations, opportunities… all influenced by her Voluval, which then puts her into a position where she’s learned skills and fields of knowledge to put her into a position to possibly live up to those expectations. And, in the end, if the marks _are_ destiny… then was hers only to be the last Prime Minister of the Parliamentary Republic? Is that all the Ray indicates? In truth, like so many things… I don’t know. I have no idea. And so I take the cautious road, the road that seems most sensible: rule out nothing that the evidence doesn’t exclude… but assert nothing the evidence doesn’t demand. I can’t say the Voluval _isn’t_ some kind of spiritual indicator… but I _can_ say that nothing I’ve seen proves it is. At most… it shows that the human mind likes patterns. If you give a young person a set of expectations for how they’ll live their life… they’ll either try to defy it, or they’ll lean into it. Either way, those expectations will inevitably shape who they become. ---
**Author:** ![Tyrel\_Toov](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tyrel_toov/32/387953_2.png) [@Tyrel\_Toov](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tyrel_Toov)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2019, 9:22am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-my-minmatar-cousins/198341/44 "2019-11-02T09:22:59Z")
> [@Andelain\_al-Cid\_ur-Melenkari](#): > > Unless, of course, you have the wrong tattoo. > > Not quite such a Utopia then, is it? Better a free outcast then a beaten slave. ---
**Author:** ![Diana\_Kim](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/diana_kim/32/382972_2.png) [@Diana\_Kim](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Diana_Kim)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2019, 10:36am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-my-minmatar-cousins/198341/45 "2019-11-02T10:36:50Z")
> [@Tyrel\_Toov](#): > > Better a free outcast then a beaten slave. What a freaking nonsense! How in Maker’s sake a totally useless outcast could be even remotely better than a reluctant and forced, but worker?.. ---
**Author:** ![Anabella\_Rella](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anabella_rella/32/504852_2.png) [@Anabella\_Rella](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anabella_Rella)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2019, 5:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-my-minmatar-cousins/198341/46 "2019-11-02T17:22:05Z")
I love how the morally bankrupt slavers are always trying to draw moral equivalencies between their corrupt religion and cultural practices and those of other empires that they simply don’t agree with (which turns out to be everyone but them). Yet another reason that I no longer try to engage slavers in any kind of dialogue; it’s utterly pointless. It’s like trying to wish a piece of limestone into being a gold block. You can’t change the fundamental nature of a thing through good thoughts and polite conversation. For the record: when I left the Federation I genuinely believed that some sort of agreement could be reached between the Amarr and Minmatar that would bring a lasting peace. After the last 11 years in space I no longer believe that and have become as some would like to label me a “radical extremist”. If that’s indeed the case then, you slavers have no one to blame but yourselves. The more I hear you talk on the IGS and in space, the less I feel that anything but total war is in our future. ---
**Author:** ![Saronu\_Yassavi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/saronu_yassavi/32/386208_2.png) [@Saronu\_Yassavi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Saronu_Yassavi)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2019, 6:30pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-my-minmatar-cousins/198341/47 "2019-11-02T18:30:49Z")
I make a point Ms Rella of knowing all I can of the systems I fight over, and the enemies I might face. In walking the mess of habitats on the surface of Arzad II, I learned a little of both. If you are so certain of the morality of the Voluval, you tell the Summit what happens to those marked by the Broken Shield, the Pale Eye or the Slaver’s Fang. ---
**Author:** ![Karynn\_Denton](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/karynn_denton/32/468090_2.png) [@Karynn\_Denton](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Karynn_Denton)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2019, 10:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-my-minmatar-cousins/198341/49 "2019-11-02T22:46:37Z")
> [@Saronu\_Yassavi](#): > > If you are so certain of the morality of the Voluval, you tell the Summit what happens to those marked by the Broken Shield, the Pale Eye or the Slaver’s Fang. While I understand your question is directed to Ms Rella, I will answer this from my own perspective. Yes, many Matari of such Marks are shunned by their clans. The less myopic of us recognise the desire to prove oneself in spite of the odds that dogma and ritual set against them. I have no doubt they will remember those who called them outcast, and I intend to provide them every opportunity within my means to help them realise their true potential. ---
**Author:** ![Anabella\_Rella](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anabella_rella/32/504852_2.png) [@Anabella\_Rella](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anabella_Rella)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2019, 7:53am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-my-minmatar-cousins/198341/50 "2019-11-03T07:53:03Z")
I believe that Arrendis already answered your question Yassavi. It’s not a universal truth that those with so-called bad marks are shunned or outcast. In the distant past this may have been the case but, in today’s Republic, those old superstitions have largely broken down. (As Arrendis stated I speak only of my personal experiences with those with supposed unfavorable marks.) Also, just as I said earlier, how can you even attempt to draw any kind of equivalence between Voluval marks and the genocide that your people visited on mine? No Voluval has ever commanded an entire civilization to expand to the stars and subjugate by force every other civilization in the cluster. ---
**Author:** ![Octavech\_Raholan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/octavech_raholan/32/373797_2.png) [@Octavech\_Raholan](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Octavech_Raholan)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2019, 8:48am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-my-minmatar-cousins/198341/51 "2019-11-03T08:48:00Z")
Lady Sadahti Alland. I do not feel anger at your wrongful, indoctrinated claim. Instead what I feel is great sadness, a mourning. You are a victim of generation’s worth of indoctrination and cruelty. You are a testament, the consequence of the sins of our people, a being with a truly empty soul and sense of self. A living tragedy, even as a capsuleer. I am sorry. I am truly sorry for this. Forgive me. Octacech Raholan Former Liberal Holder Freedom Fighter Proud Apostate ---
**Author:** ![Saronu\_Yassavi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/saronu_yassavi/32/386208_2.png) [@Saronu\_Yassavi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Saronu_Yassavi)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2019, 7:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-my-minmatar-cousins/198341/52 "2019-11-03T19:29:47Z")
It’s not a universal truth that those marked with the Pale Eye are cast out, that those with the Slaver’s Fang have their tongue cut out should they break their involuntary vow of silence. But these things do happen. It’s not a universal truth that reclaiming happens at the point of a sword. But that happens too. Judging and punishing people based upon faith… no, no moral equivalence at all. ---
**Author:** ![Deitra\_Vess](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/deitra_vess/32/249726_2.png) [@Deitra\_Vess](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Deitra_Vess)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2019, 7:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-my-minmatar-cousins/198341/53 "2019-11-03T19:47:32Z")
> [@Saronu\_Yassavi](#): > > It’s not a universal truth that reclaiming happens at the point of a sword. But that happens too. Especially happens when it’s mandated by law. Your other examples aren’t… ---
**Author:** ![Saronu\_Yassavi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/saronu_yassavi/32/386208_2.png) [@Saronu\_Yassavi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Saronu_Yassavi)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2019, 7:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-my-minmatar-cousins/198341/54 "2019-11-03T19:51:24Z")
Naturally, it’s ok to cut a family member’s tongue out as long as it’s illegal. ---
**Author:** ![Deitra\_Vess](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/deitra_vess/32/249726_2.png) [@Deitra\_Vess](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Deitra_Vess)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2019, 7:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-my-minmatar-cousins/198341/55 "2019-11-03T19:53:30Z")
It’s quite the mental gymnastics to twist an actual law, a decree by one of your lords to the same level as a seldom followed tradition that is in decline. I hope you stretched first or you’ll be sore in the morning. ---
**Author:** ![Saronu\_Yassavi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/saronu_yassavi/32/386208_2.png) [@Saronu\_Yassavi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Saronu_Yassavi)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2019, 8:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-my-minmatar-cousins/198341/56 "2019-11-03T20:03:06Z")
> [@Deitra\_Vess](#): > > seldom followed tradition Seldom followed in your experience, of late I have walked among those who would disagree most vehemently with you. I know one city of outcasts, to think their number are even a small part of the whole… would as you so adequately put, require mental gymnastics. ---
**Author:** ![Deitra\_Vess](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/deitra_vess/32/249726_2.png) [@Deitra\_Vess](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Deitra_Vess)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2019, 8:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-my-minmatar-cousins/198341/57 "2019-11-03T20:45:13Z")
Seldom followed tradition in my position (which by the way is almost entirely spending my youth bouncing around different stations, seeing many other clans first hand), in Elsebeth’s position, in Anabella’s position, in Arrendis’ position. But sure we’re all wrong compared to an outsider, right. How’s your back feeling? Yes they exist much like there are apostate groups in the cluster, so what? ---
**Author:** ![Saronu\_Yassavi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/saronu_yassavi/32/386208_2.png) [@Saronu\_Yassavi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Saronu_Yassavi)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2019, 9:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-my-minmatar-cousins/198341/58 "2019-11-03T21:08:43Z")
Obviously I can’t speak to your experiences, I have no reason to doubt what you say. But when your outcasts are… cast out. It’s not altogether shocking that you have limited experience of them. I would venture to say that is the point. I don’t know what proportion of the outcasts found their way to one city, and I could not claim to have spoken to all who dwell there. But it doesn’t take mental gymnastics to reach the conclusion that for what was a small settlement little over a decade ago, to be so much larger today; the practices you seek to dismiss are a long way from dead. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2019, 11:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-my-minmatar-cousins/198341/59 "2019-11-03T23:10:46Z")
> [@Saronu\_Yassavi](#): > > Naturally, it’s ok to cut a family member’s tongue out as long as it’s illegal. Because ‘illegal’ translates to ‘ok’ in your language? I mean, wouldn’t ‘illegal’ automatically mean ‘_not_ ok’? ---
**Author:** ![Anabella\_Rella](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anabella_rella/32/504852_2.png) [@Anabella\_Rella](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anabella_Rella)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2019, 11:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-my-minmatar-cousins/198341/60 "2019-11-03T23:27:46Z")
I blocked you for a reason slaver Yassavi because you’re not here to exchange views or to learn of other cultures; you’re here to push your imperialist agenda and harp on _one godsdamned point_ about an _outdated and rarely practiced_ tradition among _some_ Matari for the purpose of deflecting from how truly savage your own society is. You are merely a propagandist and a disingenuous one at that. When, _and only when_, a Voluval mark _demands_ all Matari to invade other sovereign nations and forcefully convert those populations to our ways (via generational slavery, mass murder, rape, kidnapping, etc.) as well as replacing all other cultures with our own, then you can you tell me how evil we are. How about you try cleaning up your own house before trying to tell me mine isn’t clean (according to your standards). ---
**Author:** ![Tyrel\_Toov](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tyrel_toov/32/387953_2.png) [@Tyrel\_Toov](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tyrel_Toov)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2019, 3:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-my-minmatar-cousins/198341/61 "2019-11-04T15:20:10Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Because ‘illegal’ translates to ‘ok’ in your language? This is the Amarrians we are talking about… [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-my-minmatar-cousins/198341.md?page=2) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/to-my-minmatar-cousins/198341.md?page=4)