# \[Updated\] Improving PVP for new players **URL:** \ **Category:** Player Features & Ideas\ **Created:** [January 19, 2022, 3:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/updated-improving-pvp-for-new-players/346537 "2022-01-19T15:47:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Gix\_Firebrand](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gix_firebrand/32/456949_2.png) [@Gix\_Firebrand](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gix_Firebrand)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2022, 10:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/updated-improving-pvp-for-new-players/346537/143 "2022-01-30T22:05:17Z")
Nope. You’re trolling 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Allisane\_Tergeryen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/allisane_tergeryen/32/305211_2.png) [@Allisane\_Tergeryen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Allisane_Tergeryen)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2022, 11:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/updated-improving-pvp-for-new-players/346537/144 "2022-01-30T23:04:43Z")
You have not contributed a single idea since I began speaking and you called me a troll. I see you’re just joking around and this thread is a place for you to come to feel less lonely. It’s okay. You’re welcome in my suggestion thread, Lil Gix. ---
**Author:** ![Gix\_Firebrand](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gix_firebrand/32/456949_2.png) [@Gix\_Firebrand](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gix_Firebrand)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2022, 1:02am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/updated-improving-pvp-for-new-players/346537/145 "2022-01-31T01:02:34Z")
Already gave suggestions 😃 Ain’t my fault you’re hiding in Averon. ---
**Author:** ![Kristian\_Hackett](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kristian_hackett/32/299926_2.png) [@Kristian\_Hackett](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kristian_Hackett)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2022, 6:14am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/updated-improving-pvp-for-new-players/346537/146 "2022-01-31T06:14:42Z")
This is pay to win and a horrible idea. How about stepping outside of your highsec bubble and applying to join one of the NS or LS corps? Loss is inevitable in this game. While it stings to lose a ship, it stings a lot less once you fleet up with folks who know what they’re doing and with them y’all start bringing in obscene amounts of ISK doing high-risk/high-reward PvE. How do you think the NS groups got so powerful? ISK doesn’t just magically appear, PvE and industry is what makes this game tick. They’re all hardcore crabbing to the tune of Crab Rave while they munch on asteroids, huff gas, and gather PI. ---
**Author:** ![Jint\_Hikaru](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jint_hikaru/32/387656_2.png) [@Jint\_Hikaru](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jint_Hikaru)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2022, 10:03am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/updated-improving-pvp-for-new-players/346537/147 "2022-01-31T10:03:16Z")
> [@Allisane\_Tergeryen](#): > > I am not trying to be oppositional. I am only describing a user experience with the software. I keep getting told what I am asking is inimical to the game. I lost interest in the game because of an experience. The issue here is you are essentially asking… Why isnt Excel a word processor. I want to write a letter, but its difficult in Excel. Can Excel please change so its more conducive to writing a letter. > [@Allisane\_Tergeryen](#): > > Allow me to explain luck in PvP. > > If I am the newest person on the server, everyone has better skills and ships than me. > > Running into someone with less game time and skills requires I luck into a target who has worse skills and ships than me. > [@Allisane\_Tergeryen](#): > > It’s exhausting being on the lower end of a violence pyramid scheme. Do you know who was also at the lower end of the violence pyramid scheme at one time or another??? **Every Eve player ever** … apart from maybe the first person to log in when the game started. We have all been there, we scuttled about in our noob ship, trying to scrimp together enough isk to upgrade. Keeping an eye open for hostiles. Making friends and working our way up to the better ships and skills. Taking the losses as learning points, and researching how to avoid that loss next time. That is what Eve is. Its designed to be harsh, i mean who stays in a game for long that is super easy? CCP want people to play for years, that is their target market. Not players who are going to easymode it for a couple months then move on. Its been explained before many times and above in this thread, splitting PvP and PvE to two servers results in two servers that don’t work. (seriously, i am sure CCP has investigated this, they built the game this way for a reason). ---
**Author:** ![Allisane\_Tergeryen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/allisane_tergeryen/32/305211_2.png) [@Allisane\_Tergeryen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Allisane_Tergeryen)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2022, 12:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/updated-improving-pvp-for-new-players/346537/148 "2022-01-31T12:24:40Z")
@Jint_Hikaru and @Kristian_Hackett … I’m not married to any of my ideas. The initial idea can be thought of as discussion point around the core issue: PVP as currently implemented hurts EVE. But there are dozens of ways to adjust the user experience that don’t involve a server split or a pay to pve option. I listed multiple idea that were meant to accomplish the same goals while preserving universal PVP. ( **Make dying fun, or at least less unfun** ) I can only speak for my own experience. People I’ve invited to the game have asked me what part of EVE is fun for me. The core experience of EVE is fun, but I can’t recommend any one part of it as fun. PVP sounds like it was supposed to be fun but something went wrong. The spirit of this thread is listening to each other and working out a game where we both can be happy. When someone started playing ten years ago -less of the game was solved -less inflation meant bouncing back from death was easier -more people were playing, so the game had a bigger, more chill community -more new people were joining the game so you could find other new players -a new toon with a million SP can never compete with a 51 million SP toon. When you have 51 million SP, your opponent now has 100 million SP. Don’t say that doesn’t matter. If it didn’t matter, no one would care about skill injectors. I am not on an equal footing with the player that started ahead of me and never will be. -We don’t get a fresh start, the game we join isn’t the game you joined. We are only getting your chewed gum. That’s part of why the game has been failing for years. No veteran understands how absolutely insurmountable the game has become. The New Player Experience is an hour and a half of scripted events and decent voice acting, not an intro to the game. All these things together mean that the new player experience at the bottom of the pyramid has changed because of the actual play conditions on the server. No one wants to have a stressful time in a system they can never make a meaningful mark on. If I wanted to do that, I’d work more at my real job. EVE, unlike a real economy, just loses player pop when the economy becomes inhospitable. The violence economy is not different from this. If I have to make 100 trips in a venture to pay for every mistake I make, I can just play one of the many games that doesn’t punish me with a chore when I’m already half-tilted by seeing my naked corpse. CCPs new indy changes require many more players to support the economy. They will never get them unless they can offer a better experience. Right now, as an EVE player, I would love to play and enjoy the game. As a new player, I would rather hurt the entire EVE economy by not participating in it than login. It feels better for Lil Gix to come here and impotently threaten to blow me up when he can’t, than to play EVE. It feels so much better to avoid the bad parts of EVE than it feels to engage with the good parts, that it feels better to avoid the game entirely than play it. I’m going to say that again, because I’ve never felt this way about a game before: it’s so frustrating to engage with PVP that it feels good to not play the game and not give CCP money. That is not a healthy engagement cycle with CCP’s software. I’m not asking for word processing on Excel, I’m saying that when some users try to use word wrap, the software provides an experience that is so deleterious, they stop using the software. PVP shouldn’t feel this bad for someone after 700 hours. It shouldn’t feel better to not play a game for someone in your target demographic: an autistic 30 year old with lots of free income, a love of space, and the ability to do arithmetic in my head. How many new players are they going to lose today, I wonder? I wonder how many players like me settle into running Abyssals and stop interacting with PVP. I wonder how many years of decline and failure before PA changes the team and the new folks try some version of what I’m suggesting. Why not try to theory craft actual solutions to real problems in the game with this space? ---
**Author:** ![Wander\_Prian](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wander_prian/32/394208_2.png) [@Wander\_Prian](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wander_Prian)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2022, 5:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/updated-improving-pvp-for-new-players/346537/149 "2022-01-31T17:40:17Z")
The problem with your ideas are that they drive off the current paying players for the sake of the possible future players who may or may not be willing to pay anyway. If the ideas you’ve posted here get implemented, the game will die faster than what you claim the current status - quo will do. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Deveron](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/max_deveron/32/245870_2.png) [@Max\_Deveron](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Max_Deveron)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2022, 6:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/updated-improving-pvp-for-new-players/346537/150 "2022-01-31T18:46:58Z")
been watching a bit… You need to understand that everything you do in this game is Person vs Person… Mining is PvP Mission Running is PvP Anoms and DeD sites are PvP Market Trading is PvP Manufacturing is PvP Research and Invention is PvP ^^ all the above drives Ganking War Decs Faction Warfare Null Sec Sov gameplay Which in turns drives the previously mentioned things…like an ecosystem, google that word. This is a Sandbox. [![](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/8/5/859eeae064e091a17c5bee04f9360610489e033d.jpeg "EVE Online: The Butterfly Effect") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08hmqyejCYU) ---
**Author:** ![Gix\_Firebrand](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gix_firebrand/32/456949_2.png) [@Gix\_Firebrand](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gix_Firebrand)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2022, 6:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/updated-improving-pvp-for-new-players/346537/151 "2022-01-31T18:49:56Z")
> [@Allisane\_Tergeryen](#): > > No one wants to have a stressful time in a system they can never make a meaningful mark on. If I wanted to do that, I’d work more at my real job. Its actually very easy. You just suck at EVE 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Dark\_Lord\_Trump](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dark_lord_trump/32/411482_2.png) [@Dark\_Lord\_Trump](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dark_Lord_Trump)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2022, 7:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/updated-improving-pvp-for-new-players/346537/152 "2022-01-31T19:19:09Z")
> [@Allisane\_Tergeryen](#): > > Showing me my toon’s naked corpse means different things to me than it might to you. I’d prefer a Team Fortress 2 style rocket gib of my character model. The imagery just means different things to different people and it might be a blindspot. It really fucks up my time playing. Is this a hill everyone wants to die on? Why are my boobs always out and totally untouched? A real simulation would just display a text box describing how a power failure caused your clone to flash liquefy under inertial pressures of space combat. Can my clone wear less sexy or long underwear? Disable the cutscene? Not a deal breaker, just listing a pain point. > > Instead of showing me essentially how I would look in a ditch on earth as the victim of a serial killer… I personally have no opinion on this. I don’t really care how getting podded looks. > [@Allisane\_Tergeryen](#): > > Kick me back to character design with some options on the new clone depending on the home station. From a lore perspective, clones are supposed to be the same. From a business perspective, this makes CCP lose out on resculpt token sales, so I don’t really like this. > [@Allisane\_Tergeryen](#): > > Consider a system where station owners can install clone modules that let you buy something at respawn that makes you feel like you are making an immediate gameplay adjustment. Like what? I don’t really see the point of this when there’s a market in every NPC station and in pretty much every nullsec staging citadel as well. > [@Allisane\_Tergeryen](#): > > Let players form insurance firms with contracts. We already have insurance though. Right click on the ship, hit insure, pay some ISK and Pend Insurance will send you more than that when you die in the insured ship. Scams and fraud in Eve is so rampant and destruction almost certainly assured so I don’t see how an insurance firm would make any isk. A lot of corps also have SRP for ships lost in certain ways. > [@Allisane\_Tergeryen](#): > > Give a small non-stackable temporary learning bonus for any skill that your killer had that was learned higher than your own. Learn from your mistakes bonus. So getting killed by someone with all the skills actually let’s you catch up. This would be massively abused. Need to train up to titan V? Get your friendly alliance titan pilot to pod you and boom now you train faster. > [@Allisane\_Tergeryen](#): > > Make players feel like they have some chance of beating anyone at PvP by pitting them against other new players doing dumb things. This let’s new players form their own communities. I quit EVE after no one I knew in real life said they would play with me, after I described my gameplay experiences. How do you plan on doing this in an open world? > [@Allisane\_Tergeryen](#): > > Add a manual piloting tutorial and explain traversal with a basic visual representation in game. I learned the basics of gameplay AFTER I had gotten tired of losing all the time and left FW. > > Opaque design isn’t difficulty and EVE feels like an empty piñata. Not gonna argue with this one. CCP isn’t great with NPE. > [@Allisane\_Tergeryen](#): > > All PVE content is solved. The problem is that players will solve PvE faster than CCP can make it. > [@Allisane\_Tergeryen](#): > > All PVP is inaccessible to someone who is starting at the bottom of the violence pyramid. This is laughably false. You might not be able to hop into a frig and become an elite solo pvper on your first day, but in a fleet you can fly tackle or EWAR and annoy people. ---
**Author:** ![Allisane\_Tergeryen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/allisane_tergeryen/32/305211_2.png) [@Allisane\_Tergeryen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Allisane_Tergeryen)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2022, 7:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/updated-improving-pvp-for-new-players/346537/153 "2022-01-31T19:27:08Z")
I’m not saying I’m the only genius that can fix things. Let’s take my original pay-to-pve option off the table. If that is a deal breaker, I apologize that was such an offensive opening idea. But an outside consultant with a few hundred hours screwing around HS might come to the same conclusion. We are headed for a global recession, niches can easily go extinct in this environment. What about giving new PCs the option to start in NS would be bad for the current game to immerse new players in NS and PVP sovereignty wars would be bad? What about taking a little sting out of PVP for new players would be so bad? What about giving everyone the option to wear longjohns in the pod hurts the experience? Or just skipping the visual to inertia goop me? What about a few more outfits hurts the veteran experience? What about the voice prompts with information that I currently need a dedicated monitor with a browser open for hurts the ? Why is my AI helper in this game so damn unhelpful after the intro? What about UI integrated combat tutorials against other newbies hurts the experience of veteran players? That only improves your experience and gives veterans more content by giving a new gen of players the basic skills to not bounce off the steep learning curve and loss curve. I didn’t learn to ride a horse by watching a video how to ride a horse. The game sucks at giving feedback PRIOR TO monumental loss. This isn’t a simulation. There is no way to negotiate a toll or ransom built into the game that gives either option any value as a pirate or as the captured from a game theory perspective. That is an opportunity to actually code and expand the PVP mechanic to allow for piracy. Imagine if you could force people that passed through your territory into a labor lien through some combination of contract mechanics. Let the An-Cap gentlemen pirates run wild. Inject some interesting game theory back into EVE. Maybe possibly, just take a look at making Warp scrambles and disruption a little more skill based? Like a cool down that is increased by more effective ECM gear and fits, that might let you break out if you can manually align and time your jump in the cool down? If we’re playing cat and mouse, give the mice a credible skill based chance. Look to all the slasher games, where you hunt victims. Make being a victim fun. Hey guys? Would it have killed anyone’s good time to create a UI that explains the following: What are kill rights? I had a bunch of the dang things. No idea if I understood them, sorry I didn’t watch the 1 hour YouTube about it. Would just set em to public for 50million ISK, figured it was some kind of bounty. I never got any feedback or saw in the interface where I could see a market for them. In my defense, I was too busy learning the interface of PI. (Submit. Save. Forgot to set input route. Sorry, you hit submit one minute ago…) We don’t need spoonfeeding. We do however have better options than y’all did in 2002. Partially because others have iterated on EVE’s design. Please note that the current player base is a miniscule minority of the total impressions of this game. Moreover, the current player base is now a minority of the playerbase that made up the “golden age of EVE”. Stagflation. Scarcity. Who joins a game like this? Where everything is getting worse, the climb is steeper than it was in the good old days, fewer and fewer people play it, where you are punished more harshly for learning by inflation, and navigate a UX that makes Dwarf Fortress feel sleek. What about improving visibility of important information and QOL updating the UI with more visual and audio feedback hurts the existing playerbase? ---
**Author:** ![Gix\_Firebrand](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gix_firebrand/32/456949_2.png) [@Gix\_Firebrand](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gix_Firebrand)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2022, 8:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/updated-improving-pvp-for-new-players/346537/154 "2022-01-31T20:03:07Z")
> [@Allisane\_Tergeryen](#): > > We don’t need spoonfeeding. You are literally asking for spoonfeeding. > [@Allisane\_Tergeryen](#): > > What about improving visibility of important information and QOL updating the UI with more visual and audio feedback hurts the existing playerbase? Spoonfeeding 😃 Guess you can’t even be bothered to read huh? > [@Allisane\_Tergeryen](#): > > Who joins a game like this? Where everything is getting worse, the climb is steeper than it was in the good old days, fewer and fewer people play it, where you are punished more harshly for learning by inflation, and navigate a UX that makes Dwarf Fortress feel sleek. You realize this part is totally giving you away right? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Deveron](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/max_deveron/32/245870_2.png) [@Max\_Deveron](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Max_Deveron)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2022, 8:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/updated-improving-pvp-for-new-players/346537/155 "2022-01-31T20:03:26Z")
> [@Allisane\_Tergeryen](#): > > the climb is steeper than it was in the good old days, ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/f/6/b/f6b8671acc98ed606d3b3f36130342fca0ee4bd4.jpeg) nope its pretty much the same ---
**Author:** ![PixyWarrior\_Ellecon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/pixywarrior_ellecon/32/456340_2.png) [@PixyWarrior\_Ellecon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/PixyWarrior_Ellecon)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2022, 8:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/updated-improving-pvp-for-new-players/346537/156 "2022-01-31T20:42:51Z")
Literally the best graph made for eve. Hands down the greatest ever ---
**Author:** ![Allisane\_Tergeryen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/allisane_tergeryen/32/305211_2.png) [@Allisane\_Tergeryen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Allisane_Tergeryen)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2022, 1:12am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/updated-improving-pvp-for-new-players/346537/157 "2022-02-01T01:12:18Z")
That’s a funny graph. 🙂 The graph that shows a 7 year trending decline in player base is much more concerning. ---
**Author:** ![Gix\_Firebrand](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gix_firebrand/32/456949_2.png) [@Gix\_Firebrand](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gix_Firebrand)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2022, 1:50am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/updated-improving-pvp-for-new-players/346537/158 "2022-02-01T01:50:25Z")
That decline isn’t in a vacuum tho. And EVE isn’t a game for everyone, as you discovered 😃 Now I get you’re feeling emotional and hence are still attempting to troll. You may even think you’re winning 😃 But we’re just laughing at you bruv. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Deveron](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/max_deveron/32/245870_2.png) [@Max\_Deveron](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Max_Deveron)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2022, 2:47am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/updated-improving-pvp-for-new-players/346537/159 "2022-02-01T02:47:42Z")
The player decline is more from CCP catering to players like you and not listening to the community that has made this game great. for example… War Dec mechanics are screwed cause players like you cried OH think of the children! Think of the new players! Veteran Industrialists and War Decc’rs were ignored, and we warned the crybabies their world would be darker in the future. And it is…for them. ---
**Author:** ![Oskar\_Milde](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/oskar_milde/32/396309_2.png) [@Oskar\_Milde](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Oskar_Milde)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2022, 10:40am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/updated-improving-pvp-for-new-players/346537/160 "2022-02-01T10:40:43Z")
Hey Allisane. Gonna put some thoughts here for your consideration. First off, re: initial proposal. It just won’t work, Asad to say. If you look at the high sec destruction numbers (from the MER, links from the News page), you’ll see a significant proportion of eve’s materiel throughput comes from high sec. If you give the players there an option to safely remove themselves from danger, my guess is the take up will be relatively high. What happens as a result? Thanking demand for the very stuff that you are producing in high sec, making the grind for stuff that much harder. Having read through your comments though, I wonder if I might make an observation: looks to me like you are in a very common “stuck loop” in high sec - you make some small money, invest in a new ship, ship blows up, back to making small money. I will recommend to you that you give nullsec a go. It is literally insane how much more you can earn there, without even trying. Isk falls out of the sky everywhere, compared to high sec. Trickiest thing is finding a corp that will mentor you in your early days. You could go with one of the big blocs, and they’ll all be very welcoming. I do understand you’ve had difficulties in the past (and some of the sperg here hasn’t been exactly helpful…), but there are great communities out there that you really should give a go with. I’ve been in several corps / alliances under female leadership and had nothing but positive experiences. For some targeted options, you might have a look through the corp recruitment posts. If you feel brave, you might try Prismatic Legion in wormhole space. They are good people. Oh, and if you do the discord thing there is also a female-only Eve discord server that might also help you find a good home. You could ping Lady Scarlett (from NC.), she’s on most major Eve discord servers and - despite a fearsome reputation - is pretty helpful. ---
**Author:** ![Allisane\_Tergeryen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/allisane_tergeryen/32/305211_2.png) [@Allisane\_Tergeryen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Allisane_Tergeryen)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2022, 10:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/updated-improving-pvp-for-new-players/346537/161 "2022-02-01T22:42:35Z")
If they were catering to me, they were doing a bad job. It’s a damn shame if they thought they were making the game hospitable for me while they were making their core playerbase miserable. But I’m not responsible for that when I write my user experience in good faith. ---
**Author:** ![Gix\_Firebrand](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gix_firebrand/32/456949_2.png) [@Gix\_Firebrand](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gix_Firebrand)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2022, 10:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/updated-improving-pvp-for-new-players/346537/162 "2022-02-01T22:45:29Z")
> [@Allisane\_Tergeryen](#): > > good faith. LOL. This ain’t that tho. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/updated-improving-pvp-for-new-players/346537.md?page=7) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/updated-improving-pvp-for-new-players/346537.md?page=9)