# Utari's Puppies (Formerly Off-Topic Thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [June 21, 2017, 6:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128 "2017-06-21T18:18:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 113
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 12:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2282 "2018-12-27T12:22:07Z")
> [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](#): > > Just don’t start slinging around rocks in glass houses. Maybe go tell that to a mirror? ---
**Author:** ![Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mizhara_del_thul/32/486150_2.png) [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mizhara_Del_thul)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 12:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2283 "2018-12-27T12:22:58Z")
With friends like these. ---
**Author:** ![Arsia\_Elkin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arsia_elkin/32/388703_2.png) [@Arsia\_Elkin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arsia_Elkin)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 1:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2284 "2018-12-27T13:26:03Z")
Watching you two fight one another makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 2:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2285 "2018-12-27T14:23:39Z")
> [@Teinyhr](#): > > I made that quip because I haven’t noticed CVA doing anything of note in years, off the top of my head all I can remember is Vaari’s condemnation posts of them in recent history. Again, granted, I don’t care what null powers do unless they decide to play the schoolyard bully and think that overwhelming those who are weaker is something to brag about. Now they noticed they might make a blip on the Empire’s radar, and jumped at the chance of pretending to be of something we should care about. Well, they’ve done enough of note over enough time that the current Empress, only this year, declared them an order of Holy Paladins and granted them titles for it. I think that, in and of itself, qualifies as ‘making a blip on the Empire’s radar’. It might also have served as a reminder that _as_ Holy Paladins of the Amarr Empire, they’ve a duty to the Empire, and might result in them taking more of an interest in the events _within_ the Empire proper. Like Thebeka. > [@Teinyhr](#): > > Well yeah, it would be bad, but we can’t really do nothing about that then. Why worry about the what and ifs? Because, as you may have noticed in Ms. Ramijozana’s questions, not everyone knows this. Not everyone is aware of what a significant development CVA choosing to involve themselves might be on its own. If that’s the case, they’re definitely not aware of the potential cascade effects of a CVA deployment. Idly commenting on the ramifications of a thing is not the same as ‘fearmongering’. Nobody should be _afraid_ of CVA. They can’t break CONCORD’s regs any more than the rest of us can. But people _should_ be _aware_ of what CVA represents and what sort of change in terrain they could cause. ---
**Author:** ![Teinyhr](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teinyhr/32/374406_2.png) [@Teinyhr](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teinyhr)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 3:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2286 "2018-12-27T15:50:35Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Well, they’ve done enough of note over enough time that the current Empress, only this year, declared them an order of Holy Paladins and granted them titles for it. I think that, in and of itself, qualifies as ‘making a blip on the Empire’s radar’. It might also have served as a reminder that _as_ Holy Paladins of the Amarr Empire, they’ve a duty to the Empire, and might result in them taking more of an interest in the events _within_ the Empire proper. Like Thebeka. Well, like I said, I’m sure I’d be corrected. Indeed CVA has a long and storied history that can be respected in its own way, in the same way I respect U’K for being around so long, despite disagreeing with their various acts and stances in their history in general. And it is more than likely that like you said, the Empress’ acknowledgement of them might have actually reminded them to “look inward” so to speak. > [@Arrendis](#): > > Idly commenting on the ramifications of a thing is not the same as ‘fearmongering’. If only it were idly commenting, not “well if they deployed properly, no one would survive for longer than two reinforcement cycles!” “Battleship fleets in triple digits!” “Could we invade Providence?!(???)” > [@Arrendis](#): > > They can’t break CONCORD’s regs any more than the rest of us can. But people _should_ be _aware_ of what CVA represents and what sort of change in terrain they could cause. Yes, the key word is could. Have they actually done anything in Thebeka beyond saying they will? I mean as in, something that is more palpable to other capsuleers: As you’ve pointed out, have they declared wars on parties involved in Thebeka? Have they deployed infrastructure in the system? No? Well, I’d think it’d be prudent to burn that bridge when we get to it, not before. This entire discussion about CVA’s involvement has been a whole lot of ifs and maybes, but people seem to be acting like they’re an established presence already. ---
**Author:** ![Aradina\_Varren](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aradina_varren/32/398702_2.png) [@Aradina\_Varren](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aradina_Varren)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 4:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2287 "2018-12-27T16:07:10Z")
Fruit mince pies are pretty good. I ate way too many. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 4:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2288 "2018-12-27T16:21:04Z")
> [@Teinyhr](#): > > This entire discussion about CVA’s involvement has been a whole lot of ifs and maybes, but people seem to be acting like they’re an established presence already. No, people are acting like the smart move is to be aware of the potential that CVA’s involvement beings, because CVA are not stupid. The moment they _become_ an established presence, it’s already too late for any of you to do a damned thing. > [@Teinyhr](#): > > If only it were idly commenting, not “well if they deployed properly, no one would survive for longer than two reinforcement cycles!” “Battleship fleets in triple digits!” “Could we invade Providence?!(???)” 1. You wouldn’t. 2. They can bring those numbers to highsec, and have in the past. Identifying the potential scope of their capacities is still not fearmongering, it’s just being accurate in assessing the situation. 3. You can’t. ---
**Author:** ![Teinyhr](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teinyhr/32/374406_2.png) [@Teinyhr](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teinyhr)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 4:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2289 "2018-12-27T16:32:19Z")
Look, I just went through this exact same crap with Mizhara, look it up, or I can just post the exact same posts again. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 5:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2290 "2018-12-27T17:10:18Z")
Yes, you did. And you keep insisting it’s ‘fearmongering’. I’m not telling you that you should be afraid. Neither was Mizhara. In fact, I’ve specifically said “Nobody should be _afraid_ of CVA.” Kind of exactly the opposite of the thing you’re accusing people of doing. Providing an honest assessment isn’t fearmongering. It’s certainly not trying to ‘guilt’ you or anyone else, or otherwise ‘goad an emotional response’. It’s just giving an honest assessment. _If_ CVA really does become involved, you can do nothing about it. Don’t be afraid of that. Don’t get upset about it. Set aside the entire issue of troops on the ground—because CVA cannot provide more than a drop in the bucket of troops the Amarr Empire can—and if need be, will—commit to maintaining control over the heart of the Empire. That situation’s a done deal. It’s just a matter of time. And in the long run, CVA putting ground forces into the mix is actually a PR loss for the Empire. There’s just no way the Amarr Empire should _need_ assistance from capsuleer organizations to subdue rioting and rebellion on even a handful of worlds. And while Lady Newelle’s contribution is just another Sarum vassal being part of the Sarum response, and PIE and SFRIM assistance is just ‘we’re letting the capsuleers in the Empire feel like they’re helping’, CVA is a different beast. CVA dropping significant numbers of ground forces gets spun as ‘the Empire needed to call in help from the marches’. It lends itself to fodder that the Great Houses were _impotent_ in the face of aggression from _slaves_, and needed to involve capsuleers with an independent power base. Even if Ardishapur _doesn’t_ need the help—and ultimately, they don’t—CVA landing troops opens the door to that rumor, and rumors are _dangerous_ to an authoritarian state like the Empire. Rumors are pernicious. They’re persistent. And they’re almost impossible to _really_ corral and wipe out. And in this case, that rumor will embolden more slaves, on more worlds. It will undermine the _fear_ that keeps them in ‘their place’. And the Empire knows it. So, big picture? CVA’s not dropping a large contingent of troops, and if they do, they’ll be told ‘thank you, but we don’t need them, pull back to orbit and hold in reserve’. That means CVA’s promise of ground support is utterly meaningless. It’s especially true in the terms of any other capsuleer’s actions. All you need to concern yourself with is what they can do _in space_, to the ships and infrastructure of _other capsuleers_. And what they can do utterly obliterate anyone who currently has a structure anchored in Thebeka, if they choose to. That is what they can do. That is why they matter _to capsuleers_. And the reason they can do that is because they have invested years of effort into ‘nullsec antics’. So while it’s wonderful to stick your fingers in your ears and sing ‘lalalala don’t care’, it’s ultimately short-sighted. Understanding why your enemy is able to do the things they can do is a critical element of being able to overcome them. But _none_ of that is an attempt to goad an emotional response. None of it is fearmongering. None of it is some kind of attempt to ‘guilt’ you. That you see assessments of a more powerful foe as attempts to make you afraid speaks only about _you_. People should not _fear_ CVA getting involved. They should _prepare_ for it. And if it doesn’t happen, then great, it’s an exercise in preparation. ---
**Author:** ![Teinyhr](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teinyhr/32/374406_2.png) [@Teinyhr](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teinyhr)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 5:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2291 "2018-12-27T17:37:50Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > _If_ CVA really does become involved, you can do nothing about it. Don’t be afraid of that. Don’t get upset about it. Yes, that is what I said too. I’m not afraid and I’m not upset. You two seem to be to me. > [@Arrendis](#): > > Understanding why your enemy is able to do the things they can do is a critical element of being able to overcome them. Give me at least some ■■■■■■■ credit, I know what they can do and how and why. I just don’t care. The situation will not be resolved through who has the most structures around. Rescue operations, insurgency operations, etc were perpetrated long before Upwell was a twinkle in some engineers eye. > [@Arrendis](#): > > But _none_ of that is an attempt to goad an emotional response. None of it is fearmongering. None of it is some kind of attempt to ‘guilt’ you. That you see assessments of a more powerful foe as attempts to make you afraid speaks only about _you_ . I’m not speaking about myself, I haven’t been speaking about myself not a single time I mentioned fearmongering, but those people you mentioned, those who are “outside the cycle.” You and Mizhara seem to have this weird notion that I’m afraid of something (regarding this issue; of course I am afraid about a number of things that are not relevant to the matter at hand). I don’t have infrastructure at risk in Thebeka. Even if I did, only thing I’d be afraid of would be losing loyal employees while capsuleers go around breaking each others toys. I find both of your fascination with capsuleer power infantile, if that is not clear already. Edit: And I’m also quite sure you consider my lack of regard to capsuleer power equally infantile, but them’s the breaks. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 7:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2292 "2018-12-27T19:24:23Z")
> [@Teinyhr](#): > > Yes, that is what I said too. I’m not afraid and I’m not upset. You two seem to be to me. I want them to come. What part of that is ‘afraid’ or ‘upset’? I want them to come because the more other blocs throw in behind the Amarr, the greater my chances of convincing CD that _we_ should throw in behind the Matari. CVA may not be as good as PL announcing they’re coming to support PIE, but it ain’t nuthin’, either. ---
**Author:** ![Teinyhr](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teinyhr/32/374406_2.png) [@Teinyhr](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teinyhr)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 7:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2293 "2018-12-27T19:29:16Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > I want them to come. What part of that is ‘afraid’ or ‘upset’? The same nonexistant part that you and Mizhara keep attributing to me. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 7:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2294 "2018-12-27T19:32:18Z")
What I attribute to you are accusations of ‘fearmongering’ and trying to ‘guilt’ you and ‘goad an emotional response’. If you’re saying you’ve never made those accusations, maybe _you_ should go and re-read your posts. ---
**Author:** ![Teinyhr](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teinyhr/32/374406_2.png) [@Teinyhr](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teinyhr)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 7:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2295 "2018-12-27T19:35:51Z")
What the ■■■■ are you even on about? Those things are not even related. Did you perhaps miss the part that I was not talking about myself, but that you both seem to think I am. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 7:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2296 "2018-12-27T19:38:55Z")
So, for example, your direct accusation that I was fearmongering in my initial assessment of CVA is ‘not even related’ to the discussion about CVA and how you’re lobbing accusations around that aren’t remotely close to having any grounding in reality? Next will you claim that none of this has anything to do with Thebeka? ---
**Author:** ![Teinyhr](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teinyhr/32/374406_2.png) [@Teinyhr](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teinyhr)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 7:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2297 "2018-12-27T19:40:34Z")
No, I didn’t mean any of those things? I’m honestly not following your logic here at all. … Sigh, I mean, yes I mean you are fear mongering and etc etc, but I don’t get where you are pulling this other stuff from? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 7:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2298 "2018-12-27T19:43:47Z")
> [@Teinyhr](#): > > I’m not afraid and I’m not upset. You two seem to be to me. > [@Arrendis](#): > > I want them to come. What part of that is ‘afraid’ or ‘upset’? > [@Teinyhr](#): > > The same nonexistant part that you and Mizhara keep attributing to me. And now you’re back to telling me I’m fearmongering when I say ‘NOBODY SHOULD BE AFRAID OF CVA’. Have you had a stroke or something? ---
**Author:** ![Alizabeth\_Vea](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/alizabeth_vea/32/122884_2.png) [@Alizabeth\_Vea](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Alizabeth_Vea)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 7:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2299 "2018-12-27T19:57:09Z")
You know what we need? An off-topic off-topic thread. That’s what we need. Something to discuss CVA’s deployment, potential deployment, and the like. To keep the off-topic thread from getting cluttered with an on-topic discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 8:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2300 "2018-12-27T20:04:44Z")
A brief expansion to point this out: The quoted chain indicates, by _your statement_, that you are pulling this accusation from a ‘nonexistant part’ of the discussion. You know what nonexistent means, right? It means you’re basing that statement on something that isn’t there. You’re saying, in effect ‘I’m getting it from lying’. That’s all following you claiming that you ‘didn’t mean any of those things’ when you accused me and Miz of fearmongering and attempting to ‘goad an emotional response’. Again, the ’ ’ section there is _your words_. > [@Teinyhr](#): > > Why try to guilt me > [@Teinyhr](#): > > I think you were intending to goad an emotional response That’s you. In this thread. Talking about statements made in assessment of CVA’s potential involvement. Now you’re claiming that you have no idea where I’m getting that. Well, I’m getting it **from you, in this thread**. You’re claiming it’s not relevant to the discussion… the ‘discussion’, at this point, being **me talking about your accusations against people who were assessing CVA’s potential involvement**. Please, **please** tell me you do not need to have it explained to you how **your accusations** are relevant to **my discussion of your accusations**. **PLEASE** tell me you can understand how **the very thing I am talking about** is relevant to **me talking about it**. ---
**Author:** ![Teinyhr](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teinyhr/32/374406_2.png) [@Teinyhr](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teinyhr)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 8:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2301 "2018-12-27T20:14:43Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > And now you’re back to telling me I’m fearmongering when I say ‘NOBODY SHOULD BE AFRAID OF CVA’. > > Have you had a stroke or something? I could ask the same of you. Nobody should be afraid of CVA, except they should, because they’d walk over all of us here, could turn the tide of this, but they can’t, because they can’t, but they might, but probably won’t, but still, be prepared. I THINK you are fearmongering, because nothing has happened, and continues to not happen. I keep trying to tell you that your “capability assessment” is causing undue stress on other people, especially baseliners. To me, this is plain as day. Then you (and Mizhara in particular) keep fighting somekind of strawman of me constantly. This is confusing as hell. > [@Arrendis](#): > > That’s you. In this thread. “Why try to guilt me, _or anyone else for that matter_.” Mizhara kept bringing up the rebels fighting and dying, which is pretty basic way of trying to goad an emotional response, and in my opinion was not relevant to the issue being talked about. > [@Arrendis](#): > > Now you’re claiming that you have no idea where I’m getting that. Because I’m sincerely not following your logic. What are you arguing _for_? Do you want me to admit that I’m wrong about something? If so, what? All I can see is you selectively quoting what I’ve said and running with the worst possible conclusions of what I’ve said. Once again it looks like we’re both arguing about completely different things. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128.md?page=112) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128.md?page=114)