# Utari's Puppies (Formerly Off-Topic Thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [June 21, 2017, 6:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128 "2017-06-21T18:18:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 118
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 8:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2382 "2018-12-31T20:32:40Z")
> [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > As for what I want Sure. That’s what you want right now. But the issue wasn’t ‘what you want’. The issue as you originally framed it was that if someone wants to do something to you that you don’t want, you won’t let them. Making you do something you don’t want to do _is_ doing something to you: it’s compelling you, forcing you, phrase it however you like. So you’re not going to do things you don’t want to do. Right _now_, you label that as ‘keeping your integrity’, but if that changes… you won’t be bound by any of it. Because you don’t want to be. And I trust your statement of not letting people do things to you that you don’t want a lot more than I trust exhortations of lofty ideals from someone who’s simultaneously telling me that lofty ideals are all shite. ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 9:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2383 "2018-12-31T21:04:28Z")
“Integrity” isn’t really an ideal. It’s more about being trustworthy, to others and to myself. It’s something I try to have. I don’t really have much by way of lofty ideals, Arrendis. A few guiding principles and ideas, though. I usually leave “ideals” to people who feel like getting in a big fight with the world. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 9:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2384 "2018-12-31T21:18:28Z")
> [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > “Integrity” isn’t really an ideal. It’s more about being trustworthy _Being trustworthy_ is an ideal, Aria. It’s a thing you strive to be, to live up to. And really, given the internal contradictions even in even that two-line post… it’s a pretty lofty one. ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 9:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2385 "2018-12-31T21:56:05Z")
I can’t agree, Arrendis. Ideals exist in a domain of the abstract, and typically aren’t achievable. “A perfectly lawful, ordered, and just society” is a good example. Nobody outside, maybe, Sansha’s Nation has ever fully done away with crime, and it seems unlikely most of the rest of us would call what Nation gets up to “just.” The abstraction might be worth working towards, but it can’t be reached. Now-- being trustworthy? That’s a much more “real” sort of thing. I try to be a person who keeps my word and who doesn’t disappoint the trust of the people who depend on me. Mostly just one person, actually. The relatively humble character of the goal is right there in the name: “trustworthy,” worthy of trust; worth trusting. That’s something more attainable, and I even might flatter myself a little that I’ve achieved such a thing: that I really am someone a certain somebody can trust. (“Honor” is often more of an ideal, particularly if you look at some of the really old codes. Like the ones from the Raata Empire or the old aristocrats on Achura? Talk about strict! … but, like I said, it was an ideal, and a lot of the people who were supposed to live up to such things, didn’t. And maybe hardly anyone, maybe even no-one, could. It’s possible, even likely, that things were better than otherwise because they were trying, though.) ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 10:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2386 "2018-12-31T22:18:36Z")
> [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > I try to be a person who keeps my word and who doesn’t disappoint the trust of the people who depend on me. This is the very epitome of striving for an _ideal_. Congratulations on proving yourself wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/veikitamo_gesakaarin/32/314638_2.png) [@Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Veikitamo_Gesakaarin)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 10:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2387 "2018-12-31T22:19:01Z")
It’s pretty obvious to any Caldari just exactly what I am and the game I play. ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 10:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2388 "2018-12-31T22:25:10Z")
Arrendis, are you now trying to somehow get to me by saying weird things? An ideal is typically a matter of striving for perfection. Keeping my word (which I rarely give) and not betraying certain people’s trust … isn’t all that hard. It’s a fairly humble, achievable goal. ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 10:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2389 "2018-12-31T22:27:45Z")
> [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > Keeping my word (which I rarely give) and not betraying certain people’s trust … isn’t all that hard. It’s a fairly humble, achievable goal. … in which alternative universe? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 10:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2390 "2018-12-31T22:29:10Z")
No, Aria. The fact that you can’t see trustworthiness as an ideal that you strive toward—even if it’s potentially achievable—doesn’t change the fact that it is. Though I do notice you’ve gone from real ‘trustworthiness’ to ‘not betraying _certain_ peoples’ trust’. In other words, not actually trustworthy at all, just not burning bridge to the _useful_ folks. The ones who let you do what you want to do without pointing out the internal inconsistencies… because it’s as convenient for them as it is for you. ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 10:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2391 "2018-12-31T22:31:17Z")
Really? Hm. I was just about to say that “absolute loyalty”-- THAT is an ideal. Staying worth trusting isn’t something I find even all that difficult. ---
**Author:** ![Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/veikitamo_gesakaarin/32/314638_2.png) [@Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Veikitamo_Gesakaarin)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 10:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2392 "2018-12-31T22:37:27Z")
I would have to agree with Arrendis here. I have never violated a contract, I keep my promises, and I always seek to follow through. Despite that, people still find me untrustworthy (their words). ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 10:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2393 "2018-12-31T22:37:51Z")
You’ll notice the qualifier goes earlier: “the people who depend on me. Mostly just one person actually.” I’m not the kind of creature who’ll claim to be always honest, Arrendis, and frankly I don’t find ideals all that respectable for their own sake. They put a person permanently at war with reality. Sometimes that’s useful, but … eh? (Also: if I have to be totally consistent to be considered principled, please feel free to consider me unprincipled.) ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 10:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2394 "2018-12-31T22:59:22Z")
Perhaps not, Aria, but if people can’t trust you, _no-one_ can trust you. If you’re the sort of person who thinks nothing of lying and deceiving people to get your way, then how can anyone ever trust that you’re _sincere_ when you say that of course **they** can trust you? After all, aren’t you just saying what they want to hear, to get your way? To get what _you_ want… their trust? “Oh, but my _actions_ tell them that!” Except they don’t. They just tell them that you still find them useful enough to keep stringing along. Mizhara would shoot me in a heartbeat in space, if it suited her goals. There is no variation on this world where she would have a moment’s hesitation in those circumstances. The same is true of Aldrith and Mitara, and even _Napkins_. And I can disagree with all of them, and think they are completely wrong and pigheaded about certain things. But I don’t have reason to think they’re _dishonest_. I don’t have reason to think that they don’t understand that being dishonest to ‘some’ people means _nobody_ can really trust you. I used to include you on that list. And that makes me sad. But still not bitter. ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 11:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2395 "2018-12-31T23:18:42Z")
Ah, Arrendis. Whenever someone tells you they never lie? Odds are, they’re a liar. I don’t think I ever told you such a foolish thing. If you had some weird ideas about me … well, I won’t apologize for you seeing more clearly, though I’m a little puzzled that you seem to think something significant has changed. I don’t think I’ve changed anything very much, though. “All around me, coming and going, are naught but dreams.” Anyway-- see you around. And, Happy YC 121! ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 11:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2396 "2018-12-31T23:29:20Z")
Oh, no, Aria… this isn’t about ‘says they never lie’. It’s about ‘always _strives_ to be honest, no matter who they’re dealing with’. Consider who I’ve named, and why. ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 11:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2397 "2018-12-31T23:49:07Z")
I prize integrity, instead. It’s related, but a little different. I don’t resent being lied to by someone who is just following their own proper course. Lying in the course of duty is just … duty. To me, it’s not at all a mark against the one who does it. But … If you want to look at me as dishonest-- uh, okay. It makes me a little sad, also. But, I don’t have control over your judgments, and there’s no way to fix that. Trusting anyone is a risk to begin with. Oh well? ---
**Author:** ![Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/veikitamo_gesakaarin/32/314638_2.png) [@Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Veikitamo_Gesakaarin)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2019, 12:38am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2398 "2019-01-01T00:38:30Z")
Only nine more days until I complete my last year’s resolution to not kill anyone for one year. #murderdeathkill #killfrenzy ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2019, 12:52am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2399 "2019-01-01T00:52:41Z")
I believe that you sincerely want me to believe that. But how can I trust it beyond that? How can anyone? ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2019, 2:02am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2400 "2019-01-01T02:02:19Z")
Well … like I said, trust is a risk. Ideally a calculated one. Maybe wait until there’s something you need to trust me about, or not, and then decide? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2019, 4:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2401 "2019-01-01T16:52:24Z")
If I don’t know that I can trust you, Aria, I don’t know that I can trust you. It’s not a ‘this moment’ or ‘that moment’ thing. Like everything else in life, it’s an ongoing process. Someone with integrity tends to be someone who’s making a lot of personal sacrifices to maintain that integrity. They’re not just doing what _they_ want to do. They’re not just doing what’s _convenient_ for them or the people they serve. Often, they’re doing extremely _inconvenient_ things because those things need doing, because those things are _right_, even if it costs them. It’s kind of a lofty ideal. So you can see how I’m… skeptical. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128.md?page=117) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128.md?page=119)