# Utari's Puppies (Formerly Off-Topic Thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [June 21, 2017, 6:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128 "2017-06-21T18:18:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 120
**Author:** ![Hevaima\_Gesakaarin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/hevaima_gesakaarin/32/167063_2.png) [@Hevaima\_Gesakaarin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Hevaima_Gesakaarin)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 4:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2425 "2019-01-09T16:46:11Z")
Consider it a non-sequitur born of personal disillusionment. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 4:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2426 "2019-01-09T16:56:24Z")
> [@\[DAEV4\] Thebeka III Freeport Aid Stations](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/daev4-thebeka-iii-freeport-aid-stations/126995/184): > > I don’t recognize your definitions for principled action as authoritative. Nor any other you find inconvenient. ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 4:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2427 "2019-01-09T16:58:27Z")
Haha. To quote someone you might agree with more often, > [@\[DAEV4\] Thebeka III Freeport Aid Stations](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/daev4-thebeka-iii-freeport-aid-stations/126995/181): > > You have no idea. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 5:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2428 "2019-01-09T17:00:47Z")
Except I do. I’ve pretty clearly laid out exactly the basis for that statement in the discussion on trustworthiness, and all you did was evade and try to change tracks. You do what you want, and you accept no limitations on yourself other than the ones _you_ choose to honor… … which means none, because you can change that decision at any time. And there’s no evidence that you won’t, because the only limitations you accept are your own. ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 5:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2429 "2019-01-09T17:05:28Z")
You’re not actually very well placed to know what I will and won’t do, though. Also I see you’re still using a weird mechanical standard for how to determine trustworthiness. Let it go, Arrendis. It wasn’t interesting before, either. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 5:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2430 "2019-01-09T17:10:06Z")
Why should I care if you find it interesting? Isn’t that kind of direction ‘imperialist’, attempting to dictate what I do and why? As for what I know… I’ve based my conclusions _entirely_ on your own statements, as we established in the prior discussion. At no point were those statements even ambiguous enough for you to claim I’d ‘twisted’ them, as is undeniably popular among people who don’t like being reminded of their own self-indictment. So either my conclusions are based on _your_ truth… or your _lies_. But it’s nice to see you continue the pattern of evasion that just reinforces those conclusions. ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 5:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2431 "2019-01-09T17:24:29Z")
Sure, Arrendis. ---
**Author:** ![Nauplius](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nauplius/32/403015_2.png) [@Nauplius](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nauplius)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 12:40am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2432 "2019-01-10T00:40:28Z")
Instead of “Off-Topic Thread”, “Let’s Pick on Poor Aria All the Time” seems to be a more apt name for the function of this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Teinyhr](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teinyhr/32/374406_2.png) [@Teinyhr](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teinyhr)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 8:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2433 "2019-01-10T20:43:05Z")
> [@\[SoERR\]\[EM\] Changes in status and services](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/soerr-em-changes-in-status-and-services/128530/74): > > Alternative methods for slave control, certainly much stronger and effective, are already being considered by thousands of Holders throughout the Empire. So basicly, once again, even further exposing the often touted pretense that “slavery is for their betterment as people and bringing them closer to God”, and not just a source of perverse pleasure for the Holders to make them as subservient as possible. ---
**Author:** ![Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gaven_lok_ri/32/293159_2.png) [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gaven_Lok_ri)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 8:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2434 "2019-01-10T20:57:28Z")
The person speaking is not exactly a representative of Amarr Orthodoxy. ---
**Author:** ![Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mizhara_del_thul/32/486150_2.png) [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mizhara_Del_thul)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 9:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2435 "2019-01-10T21:15:41Z")
Doesn’t really matter what he is. What matters is what we see happening throughout the Empire, and with the Empress herself being of a family _very_ keen on TCMC usage and the commoditization of slaves, it would hardly be a surprise to see this little bit of prophecy come to pass. Especially given the way Deathglow works. This particular shitshow is ugly as hell for the Empire. The only ways to get out of it not covered in drippy brown goo would be anathema to them to begin with. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 10:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2436 "2019-01-10T22:12:17Z")
And what if they _were_? If the Empress were to mandate that, in order to ‘protect’ slave populations from Deathglow attacks by Blood Raiders, all slaves must be TCMC’d? What would PIE say to that? After all, the gates of paradise open only once, and all that, right? False belief—such that that prompted by the perception filters of a TCMC—just gets you damned, right? If the Empress were to mandate it _anyway_… or if the Theology Council were to somehow reverse centuries of orthodoxy and declare that no, forced conversion is fine… what does PIE do? Do you immediately decide that you’ve clearly been completely wrong about what you believe, for _decades_, and suddenly you believe something else? Is that even _belief_, or just sycophanty? Or do you decide the Empress and/or Theology Council are _wrong_, and that thousands of years of Scripture should mean something, and that the Empire of Holy Amarr should be stronger than _cowering_ in fear of Blood Raiders? **If** , and I’m certainly not saying it will come to this, Paladin Admiral (I think that’s right?), what does PIE do, and what do **you** do? Abandon that which you believe to be inviolate World of God for the sake of a little security and political expedience? Or make the same choice Samira has made, to hold true to your understanding of God, formed and informed over decades in the faith, even if that contradicts the Empress and her Council? I’m just curious, really… both about the answer, and about whether or not you can even ask that question of yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Samira\_Kernher](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/samira_kernher/32/244840_2.png) [@Samira\_Kernher](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Samira_Kernher)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 10:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2437 "2019-01-10T22:33:03Z")
Considering the cost of TCMCs, an order for all slaves to be TCMC’ed would probably put a lot of Holders out of business (or incline them to free their slaves). I mean, I understand the question is theoretical, but there is this consistent idea among people that TCMCs are some perfect “solution”. There’s a _reason_ they aren’t used more than they already are, and that’s not because of the demands of the faith (other than in Ardishapur territories, where they’re already largely banned). They’re expensive. You might see a higher uptake in TCMCs used on slaves that are seen as a potential threat to public order, but not across the entire population. > [@Arrendis](#): > > Paladin Admiral (I think that’s right?) It remains Lord Admiral. In the same way you don’t call someone ‘Holder _Name_’ or ‘Knight _Name_’, the title and the styling are frequently not identical. It’s in formal styling that it may be included (Lord Admiral Gaven Lok’ri, Chapter Master of the Excubitoris Chapter of the Order of the Sacred Throne). ---
**Author:** ![Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gaven_lok_ri/32/293159_2.png) [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gaven_Lok_ri)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 11:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2438 "2019-01-10T23:09:35Z")
I would be extremely skeptical of the idea that an individual who was made to convert using TCMCs could be considered converted. Skeptical enough that I would almost certainly refer that person to a religious professional for correction. However, there is no obligation of a Holder to convert all of those under their authority. There is, however, an absolute obligation to _control_ all of those who are held and to keep them in proper order in service of God and Amarr. While my understanding is that using TCMCs to force conversion would be rather suspect, using TCMCs to keep populations who are far from being ready for conversion in line is an entirely different theological issue. So using TCMCs on an individual who was considered ready for conversion would prevent the completion of their conversion. Though, again, I am not an expert on this issue. There is simply no mandate to convert all slaves as fast as possible, so theoretically if Catiz decided to put all conversion on hold for a generation it would be entirely acceptable. That said, I am _not_ a theologian, and I do not know a single capsuleer qualified to speak authoritatively on this issue. The fact that the Theology Council has not been willing to outright ban or endorse the use of TCMCs suggests that it is an extremely fraught issue and that it is likely that they are finding some uses to be entirely acceptable while others are certainly unacceptable. Basically, I don’t think TCMCs are an issue that make a good litmus test. I also would continue to point out that Amarr Scripture is always growing and changing and that we have many historical instances, most notably the Moral Reforms, in which Amarr did decide that new revelation superseded elements of old revelation. This can and very likely will happen again, as has just happened with the decree on the souls of capsuleers. But I think your real question is whether I can imagine a scenario where the Empire’s authorities took a stance that I firmly believed was heretical and what I would do in that case? Is that right? The absolute core of the Amarr faith is to _obey_ the authority of God. If you reject that obligation, you are no longer Amarr. The office of Emperor and the other high Imperial Offices and Institutions are an organization that is divinely mandated, so so long as those offices remain uncorrupted, disobeying them is the same as disobeying God. Theoretically those people can become corrupt, as we have seen far too recently with Karsoth. I do not believe there is solid evidence that this is the case now, however. And while I do not doubt that there _is_ corruption at far higher levels than I would like, I do not believe that that corruption is even close to universal, or even close to the levels it was at during Karsoth’s usurpation. Now can I imagine a scenario in which it becomes clear that those who are inhabiting the worldly offices of the empire to whom I am beholden are entirely corrupt? Of course. I am not interested in speculating as to what I would do in such an extreme scenario, as far too much would depend on context, but I certainly can see scenarios in which loyalty to God would mean taking a hard stand and directly acting against corruption in the Empire. ---
**Author:** ![Samira\_Kernher](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/samira_kernher/32/244840_2.png) [@Samira\_Kernher](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Samira_Kernher)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 11:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2439 "2019-01-10T23:15:14Z")
> [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](#): > > … but I certainly can see scenarios in which loyalty to God would mean taking a hard stand and directly acting against corruption in the Empire. Indeed. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2019, 2:19am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2440 "2019-01-11T02:19:13Z")
Asked and answered then, and a reasonable, well-thought out answer, as well. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Ria\_Nieyli](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ria_nieyli/32/447728_2.png) [@Ria\_Nieyli](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ria_Nieyli)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2019, 3:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2441 "2019-01-11T15:54:21Z")
What’s up in this world? ---
**Author:** ![Anabella\_Rella](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anabella_rella/32/504852_2.png) [@Anabella\_Rella](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anabella_Rella)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2019, 4:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2442 "2019-01-11T16:44:39Z")
> [@Nauplius](#): > > Instead of “Off-Topic Thread”, “Let’s Pick on Poor Aria All the Time” seems to be a more apt name for the function of this thread. Aww, you’re still in love with her aren’t you? How _sweet_. If she hadn’t set herself up as some sort of universal moral arbiter then this wouldn’t have happened. On a side note, I wonder what side your beloved will choose when those slave ships appear over Saisio III? I’m pretty certain she will side with her Amarrian leash holders and sell out her kin because, you know, god demands it. ---
**Author:** ![Aldrith\_Shutaq](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aldrith_shutaq/32/378618_2.png) [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aldrith_Shutaq)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2019, 5:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2443 "2019-01-11T17:05:15Z")
> [@Anabella\_Rella](#): > > I’m pretty certain she will side with her Amarrian leash holders and sell out her kin because, you know, god demands it. God, you are stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2019, 5:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2444 "2019-01-11T17:09:58Z")
> [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](#): > > God, you are stupid. So He is. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128.md?page=119) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128.md?page=121)