# Utari's Puppies (Formerly Off-Topic Thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [June 21, 2017, 6:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128 "2017-06-21T18:18:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 134
**Author:** ![Diana\_Kim](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/diana_kim/32/382972_2.png) [@Diana\_Kim](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Diana_Kim)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2019, 3:34am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2706 "2019-02-08T03:34:24Z")
Amusing. Wanna come and try? ---
**Author:** ![Makoto\_Priano](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/makoto_priano/32/383919_2.png) [@Makoto\_Priano](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Makoto_Priano)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2019, 3:38am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2707 "2019-02-08T03:38:16Z")
Come and try? I’m not sure you understand legal systems. _You’d_ need to initiate the suit in a court with jurisdiction, with a suitable body of evidence such that the court would take up the case. The messy thing, of course, is that we’re both independent capsuleers, so I’m not sure if we’d fall under CONCORD or CBT jurisdiction. Of course, there are also Ishukone courts, but I suspect I know your response there. And, of course, the hilarious array of potential defenses is such that I’m fairly sure you’d be laughed out of the court. After all, the Dominix thing? Really? ---
**Author:** ![Julianni\_Avala](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/julianni_avala/32/356243_2.png) [@Julianni\_Avala](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Julianni_Avala)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2019, 4:31am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2708 "2019-02-08T04:31:41Z")
Am I the only one that is sincerely growing tired of this back and forth? ---
**Author:** ![Charles\_Cambridge\_Schmidt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/charles_cambridge_schmidt/32/372217_2.png) [@Charles\_Cambridge\_Schmidt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Charles_Cambridge_Schmidt)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2019, 4:32am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2709 "2019-02-08T04:32:50Z")
No, lol. @Makoto_Priano for F-ing real dude, literally you’re only responding to DK to stroke your own ego at the expensive of everybody else. You run ARC. Ain’t that enough? haha ---
**Author:** ![Makoto\_Priano](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/makoto_priano/32/383919_2.png) [@Makoto\_Priano](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Makoto_Priano)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2019, 4:36am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2710 "2019-02-08T04:36:46Z")
Mr. Schmidt, stroke my own ego? How? But in all seriousness, I agree with both of you that it’s tiresome. I only indulge periodically, after having gotten over my wrestling-pigs-in-the-mud period. Besides. This is the off-topic thread. Not sure there’s much harm done here. ---
**Author:** ![Julianni\_Avala](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/julianni_avala/32/356243_2.png) [@Julianni\_Avala](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Julianni_Avala)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2019, 4:50am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2711 "2019-02-08T04:50:58Z")
There is harm to my sanity. All jokes aside, perhaps you’re right. But it doesn’t make the experience of reading the IGS any more pleasant. ---
**Author:** ![Makoto\_Priano](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/makoto_priano/32/383919_2.png) [@Makoto\_Priano](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Makoto_Priano)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2019, 4:51am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2712 "2019-02-08T04:51:32Z")
Fairly well agreed. I’d happily let it wither and die. ---
**Author:** ![Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/veikitamo_gesakaarin/32/314638_2.png) [@Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Veikitamo_Gesakaarin)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2019, 4:54am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2713 "2019-02-08T04:54:32Z")
The thing about being a capsuleer is that we all operate without laws – we are quite literally all outlaws in the eyes of CONCORD. The price paid for extralegal status is we have no legal protections. An example would be private property rights, these are usually protected under law in most nations but not with us. Someone destroys a capsuleer’s property and there is no redress, no criminal charges, and no ability to claim suit. Talk of bringing charges against a capsuleer is just a laughable prospect. The only redress you get is at the end of a gun. Even CONCORD recognizes that with its flag system. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2019, 5:10am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2714 "2019-02-08T05:10:03Z")
> [@Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](#): > > we are quite literally all outlaws in the eyes of CONCORD We quite literally aren’t. ‘Outlaws’ are criminals. Some of us are, sure. Watch and see who can and can’t go into highsec without CONCORD intervention. The rest of us live within the laws that govern our kind, that CONCORD enforces. We even pay our bills… _to CONCORD_, no less. So, no, we’re not outlaws. We do not operate ‘without laws’. We’re just under a different jurisdiction than baseliners. ---
**Author:** ![Teinyhr](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teinyhr/32/374406_2.png) [@Teinyhr](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teinyhr)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2019, 7:08am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2715 "2019-02-08T07:08:49Z")
> [@Melisma\_Ramijozana](#): > > You seem to be hinting at something here. > > Speak straight before you embarrass yourself further. When I say that capsuleers have some weird ideas of proper conduct, I mean that: No matter what kind of messed up crap you do, there will be people to defend you. Hell I remember Nauplius being invited to high-society banquets when he was still actively sacrificing people for his Red God. Same for many other capsuleers that work with / declare loyalty for entities like the Nation, EoM, Blooders or such. I remember then when the Drifters were the newest kids on the block, I said “maybe we should refrain from shooting them if they present no actual threat and focus on study when opportunity presents itself”, such as the mysterious damaged and passive Drifter vessel concentrations before the discovery of the Triglavian vessel, and had people shitting on me left and right. And actually when I suggested the same about Triglavians and even petitioned CONCORD to not release the filaments, people just kept calling me crazy for being a little cautious about pissing off a group that evidently was advanced enough to harness artificial singularities. So my take on this is, that the more extreme borderline psychotic crap you pull, the easier you seem to be forgiven. I mean if this “Vea” was a worse butcher than Nauplius (Ali did say Vea was more competent than Nauplius) I’m surprised people still even talk to her, extenuating circumstances or no. I mean, I should be surprised, but I’ve seen this time and again. Guess I should just embrace the madness myself. ---
**Author:** ![Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/veikitamo_gesakaarin/32/314638_2.png) [@Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Veikitamo_Gesakaarin)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2019, 8:21am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2716 "2019-02-08T08:21:15Z")
Security status is just a system, it does not actually involve the filing of criminal charges or any sort of prosecution under any system of law. Again, extralegal status means for all intents and purposes every capsuleer is fair game. Death and destruction of property by any capsuleer upon another brings no charges of criminality under law because legal protections had been waived in the first place. This also affects CONCORD behaviour towards capsuleers. If they want to, they’re quite free to just drag whatever capsuleers they want to Yulai to get shot by other capsuleers without prosecution, trial, or due process because no capsuleer has any legal protections beyond DED diktat. ---
**Author:** ![Diana\_Kim](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/diana_kim/32/382972_2.png) [@Diana\_Kim](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Diana_Kim)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2019, 10:02am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2717 "2019-02-08T10:02:00Z")
> [@Makoto\_Priano](#): > > The messy thing, of course, is that we’re both independent capsuleers, so I’m not sure if we’d fall under CONCORD or CBT jurisdiction. I am a citizen still, by the way. > [@Makoto\_Priano](#): > > Of course, there are also Ishukone courts, but I suspect I know your response there. Ishukone… you surely should be joking? No, I won’t say anything about that, I’ll just make a proposition similar by degree of your own: State Protectorate court martial. > [@Makoto\_Priano](#): > > After all, the Dominix thing? Really? Umm, you even forgot your own slanders? That was just example of someone else slandering me, and that would be just terrifically easy court cases. Even if they would manage to fabricate any evidences of that, I’ll just pull our my capsuleer training certificate with a poker face. It could be easy to show I flied osprey or basilisk, however, but that only in general, I would be very curious to see if you can show I did that in Haatomo, but even that, how would you fight official logs? Besides all that, there’s just one word for which lawyers will “eat you alive”. Good luck trying to prove that a pilot in a good standing and in perfect mental health is a “madwoman”. So, yea, I want very much to see how you will wriggle in the courtroom, that surely will be a sight to laugh at! ---
**Author:** ![Valerie\_Valate](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/valerie_valate/32/386231_2.png) [@Valerie\_Valate](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Valerie_Valate)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2019, 11:10am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2718 "2019-02-08T11:10:05Z")
> [@Alizabeth\_Vea](#): > > > [@Teinyhr](#): > > > > . . . you cucumber. . . . > > Off topic, I know, but calling someone a cucumber as an insult made me laugh. I’m going to have to remember that. Cucumbers are the lewdest fruit. ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2019, 11:39am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2719 "2019-02-08T11:39:21Z")
> [@Julianni\_Avala](#): > > There is harm to my sanity. Listen, you are reading the off-topic thread. I am fairly certain sane people don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Teinyhr](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teinyhr/32/374406_2.png) [@Teinyhr](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teinyhr)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2019, 11:44am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2720 "2019-02-08T11:44:20Z")
You need to be a bit insane to even try becoming a capsuleer in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Diana\_Kim](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/diana_kim/32/382972_2.png) [@Diana\_Kim](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Diana_Kim)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2019, 11:47am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2721 "2019-02-08T11:47:34Z")
Or you could have no other option… ✋ ---
**Author:** ![Teinyhr](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teinyhr/32/374406_2.png) [@Teinyhr](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teinyhr)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2019, 2:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2722 "2019-02-08T14:58:01Z")
You mean as in, either try your luck at genetic lottery or die? In retrospect, I’d rather die than go through the training again. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2019, 3:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2723 "2019-02-08T15:29:33Z")
> [@Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](#): > > Security status is just **a system** , it does not actually involve the filing of criminal charges or any sort of prosecution under **any system of law**. Emphasis added. Just because CONCORD’s laws do not provide a trial for the accused doesn’t make it any less a system of laws. Charges? CONCORD tracks everything you do. Your every action and word is monitored. They don’t need _charges_ to attempt to convict you of, they simply note what you have _done_ and dole out your punishment. ‘Law’ doesn’t require ‘jurisprudence’. It doesn’t require a subsystem wherein the accused gets to defend themselves. ‘Due process’ is defined by the system. It is ‘the process that is due’. And in the system of _laws_ all capsuleers live under, that process is ‘CONCORD has judged you guilty, now you pay the price’. > [@Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](#): > > Death and destruction of property by any capsuleer upon another brings no charges of criminality under law Except it does. It brings _immediate_ violent response… unless you’ve paid CONCORD off in advance, or you’re in an area _CONCORD_ has designated ‘low security’. Don’t mistake ‘legal protections’ for ‘laws’. We live under a system of laws. Break them, and there is no appeal, there is no defense, there is only your ship, exploding under CONCORD’s guns. It’s an extremely draconian system of laws, but it’s still a system of laws. ---
**Author:** ![Krzysztof\_Niwinski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/krzysztof_niwinski/32/138771_2.png) [@Krzysztof\_Niwinski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Krzysztof_Niwinski)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2019, 7:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2724 "2019-02-08T19:51:26Z")
^ No country for old men ---
**Author:** ![Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/veikitamo_gesakaarin/32/314638_2.png) [@Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Veikitamo_Gesakaarin)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2019, 12:05am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2725 "2019-02-09T00:05:05Z")
This is why every capsuleer is an outlaw, the very word derived from the homo sacer tradition of “without law”. From the outset CONCORD treats every capsuleer as one. CONCORD is the law and it retains for itself the power to do whatever it wants to capsuleers because a capsuleer has zero legal protections. For example, as events in Kahah showed, you can have any sec status you want, but if CONCORD wants capsuleers shot it can as with Samira Kernher or entire Minmatar fleets declare them free to be shot with no response or recourse to appeal that decision. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128.md?page=133) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128.md?page=135)