# Utari's Puppies (Formerly Off-Topic Thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [June 21, 2017, 6:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128 "2017-06-21T18:18:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 135
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2019, 12:55am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2726 "2019-02-09T00:55:48Z")
> [@Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](#): > > This is why every capsuleer is an outlaw, the very word derived from the homo sacer tradition of “without law”. From the outset CONCORD treats every capsuleer as one. CONCORD is the law and it retains for itself the power to do whatever it wants to capsuleers because a capsuleer has zero legal protections. Outlaw means someone who operates outside the law. It doesn’t mean someone who isn’t subject to any laws. And even if it did, we’re not that. We are subject to laws. As you say: CONCORD is the law. The fact that it’s an absolute authoritarian ruler doesn’t change that. A king who is an absolute monarch doesn’t mean all of his subjects are ‘outlaws’. It means they’re subject to someone who can be vindictive and arbitrary in their application of the laws, but those subjects are still very much _under_ the law. > [@Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](#): > > a capsuleer has zero legal protections This, too, is demonstrably not true. The capsuleer has no inherent appeals process in the case of crimes committed, but we have a number of legal protections. For example: we can’t be enslaved by the Amarr Empire. And we can—as the actions in response to CONCORD’s demands on ARC’s stockpiles—appeal to those authorities that hold sway over CONCORD. Moreover, we cannot be attacked by other capsuleers in high-sec without immediate punishment (unless, of course, they’ve paid CONCORD off in advance). We do have legal protections, mostly from one another, but they exist. Again: a oppressive absolute tyranny doesn’t make those it oppresses ‘outlaws’. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2019, 1:48am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2727 "2019-02-09T01:48:07Z")
> [@\[WANTED\] Gallente sockpuppet for questioning](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/wanted-gallente-sockpuppet-for-questioning/138460/15): > > Come and find me _Baka_ . I’ll be waiting. Just ignore her. She’ll go away. ---
**Author:** ![Krzysztof\_Niwinski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/krzysztof_niwinski/32/138771_2.png) [@Krzysztof\_Niwinski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Krzysztof_Niwinski)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2019, 1:52am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2728 "2019-02-09T01:52:03Z")
^^ sick world ---
**Author:** ![Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/veikitamo_gesakaarin/32/314638_2.png) [@Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Veikitamo_Gesakaarin)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2019, 11:57am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2729 "2019-02-09T11:57:56Z")
Meanwhile, I’m quite free to target other capsuleers if I so wish and destroy their property, kill their crews, and execute them in their pods quite safe in the knowledge I will never be charged for a crime. That’s just one of the pleasures of being an independent capsuleer, while you’re fair game, so is everyone else. There’s rules, but no laws to abide by. About the only cost to breaking rules are some tags and a few million. People might object to that killing and destruction of other capsuleers, but objections don’t mean much either after a point. ---
**Author:** ![Arsia\_Elkin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arsia_elkin/32/388703_2.png) [@Arsia\_Elkin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arsia_Elkin)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2019, 4:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2730 "2019-02-09T16:43:09Z")
> [@Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](#): > > There’s rules, but no laws to abide by. There are _laws_. The punishments for breaking them are just somewhat pathetic. The governing body that rules us, CONCORD, is both inept and corrupt. It’s really sad. Also as you may destroy people’s ships and kill their crews, a faction’s navy is also permitted to do the same to you in their space if they don’t like you, if CONCORD marks you as a criminal, or if you’ve got illegal cargo as designated by their faction. So it kind of goes both ways. ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2019, 4:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2731 "2019-02-09T16:51:54Z")
Probably the best analogy for a capsuleer’s place in the legal scheme is: “Tiny independent nation-state.” Our dealings with each other and with the world around us are fundamentally anarchic; mostly, the punishment for misbehavior is damage to our relations with each other and/or the larger powers, which can result in attacks on our assets. The really bothersome question (or at least it bothers me on an ongoing basis) is why they’d give us that kind of status. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2019, 5:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2732 "2019-02-09T17:22:52Z")
> [@Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](#): > > Meanwhile, I’m quite free to target other capsuleers if I so wish and destroy their property, kill their crews, and execute them in their pods quite safe in the knowledge I will never be charged for a crime. Because you’re not committing one. Go into Jita and do that with abandon, see what happens. Just because the laws don’t cover as much as you might think a system of laws _should_ doesn’t mean it’s not there. Once again, we’re back to the arbitrary-but-draconian nature of things. > [@Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](#): > > There’s rules, but no laws to abide by. That’s _all_ laws are. Rules. If there are rules, set in place by a governing body with the authority to punish you for breaking them? Those are laws. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2019, 5:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2733 "2019-02-09T17:57:26Z")
> [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > The really bothersome question (or at least it bothers me on an ongoing basis) is why they’d give us that kind of status. It’s actually something I’ve been contemplating quite a bit lately. And the answers I come up with… aren’t encouraging. It’s because they don’t care. Or rather, it’d be nice if they didn’t care. In the grand scheme of things, we are still insignificant specks to them, and a minor irritant on the order of ‘a single drop of dew just hit my nose’ at _worst_. If we become more… they turn us off. That’s the ‘good’ option. The other is… They _want_ this. Everything you and Samira see as bad, as excessive, as things we should never be given enough leeway to do… they _want_ those things to happen. The destruction of Keepstars? Desirable. Burn Jita? Hells yeah. The scourging of Providence? More, baby, more. It’s _what they want_. It’s like the ‘warzones’, really, writ larger: We’re potentially useful. As we get more and more experienced, our potential usefulness increases. If nothing else, we’re an immense wealth of operational combat experience that the Navies probably can’t match, and in another few decades, _definitely_ won’t match. Yes, there are Naval capsuleers, but they don’t spend nearly as much time fighting as we do. They haven’t engaged in the scale of fighting we do. I mean, really. If the Empire and the Republic had thrown hundreds of titans and hundreds more supercarriers at one another _repeatedly_, we’d have heard about it. When was the last time any of them went on a _sustained_ campaign of conquest? Have _any_ of the empires engaged in entosis warfare? We know they _have_ Force Auxiliaries, but have they even _used_ them? We’re the testbeds. More, we’re the _case studies_. The pilots in the warzones are amassing combat experience that will be invaluable in instructing naval capsuleers in small taskforce tactics. The ones out in null are developing, refining, countering, and discarding mass fleet tactics, area control techniques, and large-scale campaign strategies at a pace that represents _decades_, if not _centuries_ of naval wargames. The navies have other responsibilities. We _don’t_. Naval pilots, when they’re not _doing their jobs_, go and relax with friends, spend time with their families, do things to _get their minds off work_. When we’re not actively killing one another because we have to… we go out and do it for _fun_. Loyalists gain experience the navies can use directly. Independents become case studies and textbooks. And when the next major war between the Yulai powers happens… they’re probably betting that enough of us out here will find our ways back there. Maybe because we’re still loyal. Maybe because it’s ‘home’. Maybe just because it’s a new and exciting theater of warfare to try. And maybe the money’ll be worth it. The more I look at New Eden, the less _real_ difference I can see between how the Yulai powers have the cluster arranged… and the way the Trigs set up Abyssal Deadspace. Rats in the maze, smart weapons in an incredibly complex testing grounds. Marionettes, dancing on our strings. You ask ‘why’ they’d create an entire class of quasi-immortal bloodletters and turn them loose with minimal legal interference? Because they _want_ the slaughter we bring. And they never want it to end. And what can we do about that? Nothing. Just keep on dancing. ---
**Author:** ![Yun-Hee\_Tight-lips\_Yubari](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/yun-hee_tight-lips_yubari/32/513933_2.png) [@Yun-Hee\_Tight-lips\_Yubari](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Yun-Hee_Tight-lips_Yubari)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2019, 6:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2734 "2019-02-09T18:39:34Z")
> [@A Matter of Choice](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-matter-of-choice/137768/24): > > When’s the next maudlin display of a cry for attention? Now! 😢 Notice me, senpaiii!!! 😭 ---
**Author:** ![Jade\_Blackwind](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jade_blackwind/32/197719_2.png) [@Jade\_Blackwind](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jade_Blackwind)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2019, 9:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2735 "2019-02-09T21:24:16Z")
> [@Valerie\_Valate](#): > > Cucumbers are the lewdest fruit. Bananas might disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/veikitamo_gesakaarin/32/314638_2.png) [@Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Veikitamo_Gesakaarin)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2019, 10:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2736 "2019-02-09T22:38:13Z")
All I’m pointing out is that I can quite happily say I am no criminal. That would be a true statement. I have never been charged with a crime to be convicted of under CONCORD. The legal framework I operate under permits me to do that. I can be quite open as a killer, because so long as I only target other capsuleers, I will get away with it. That’s what _the law_ allows me to do. I happen to crack open a few PIE ships and send the dismembered remains of the crew to Kernher on her birthday for a giggle? Hey sure, the Amarr authorities might not like that but I can happily dock right up at Oris and have a spiced wine so long as I have the sec status for it. Which is as easy as a jumpclone over to my favourite DED station where my cache of security tags are. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2019, 10:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2737 "2019-02-09T22:45:08Z")
> [@Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](#): > > All I’m pointing out is that I can quite happily say I am no criminal. Which a vastly different claim than > [@Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](#): > > There’s rules, but no laws to abide by. or > [@Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](#): > > This is why every capsuleer is an outlaw, the very word derived from the homo sacer tradition of “without law”. You’re not a criminal. You’re not an outlaw. Because you don’t break the laws that govern you. But there _are_ laws that govern you. And you obey them. ---
**Author:** ![Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/veikitamo_gesakaarin/32/314638_2.png) [@Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Veikitamo_Gesakaarin)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2019, 11:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2738 "2019-02-09T23:33:37Z")
Okay, outlaw might not be the precise term, but what I’m trying to allude to is that if CONCORD did not want capsuleers to engage in violent intercouse leading to destruction of assets and loss of life, they have it well in their power to if not prohibit outright, make the barriers of doing so much higher. CONCORD has perfect surveillance on every capsuleer vessel to the extent that not even being in Anoikis or the Abyss prevents their ability to log their destruction and by whom. Theoretically, if CONCORD wanted to prevent capsuleer violence we’d all be stuck on green safeties via a firmware lockout. But they don’t. Violence against capsuleers by other capsuleers is condoned. This informs the distinctions I make. I won’t target actual signatory flagged neutral shipping - in most instances I can’t anyway. Another capsuleer and their vessel though? That’s fair game to me. ---
**Author:** ![Annisir\_Kaugan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/annisir_kaugan/32/388372_2.png) [@Annisir\_Kaugan](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Annisir_Kaugan)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2019, 12:08am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2739 "2019-02-10T00:08:46Z")
It’s, in some ways, closest to being a privateer. That was the whole point of the letter of marque. Capsuleers are more complicated, in that we act for a whole host of people, depending on the job, rather than for a single empire. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2019, 12:14am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2740 "2019-02-10T00:14:05Z")
> [@Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](#): > > But they don’t. Violence against capsuleers by other capsuleers is condoned. Under certain circumstances. It’s condoned in areas specifically designated for it (low-sec, nullsec), and places where access is more trouble than CONCORD feels is worth the effort (Anoikis). In the more populated regions we consider ‘high-sec’, there is no such carte blanche. Instead, there, you have to pay CONCORD off in advance to get around their restrictions. You can’t pay that fee to attack a rookie-corp. And now, you can’t do it with normal corps unless they have a structure in space someplace. Those who don’t? Their property is perfectly protected. But of course, I do agree with one part of [your original point](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/off-topic-thread/5128/2713): We really don’t have any way to bring civil suit against one another. CONCORD wants us to settle our differences ourselves, violently, and not burden their legal system with it. And why? [Because the empires find it useful](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/off-topic-thread/5128/2733). So, you’re right: Outlaw isn’t the precise term. The precise term is ‘test subject’. Or even ‘pawn’. ---
**Author:** ![Constantin\_Baracca](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/constantin_baracca/32/170074_2.png) [@Constantin\_Baracca](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Constantin_Baracca)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2019, 12:15am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2741 "2019-02-10T00:15:06Z")
Or gladiator. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2019, 12:15am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2742 "2019-02-10T00:15:47Z")
That’s the ‘faction warzones’, definitely. A nice, stable arena for the bloodsport. ---
**Author:** ![Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/veikitamo_gesakaarin/32/314638_2.png) [@Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Veikitamo_Gesakaarin)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2019, 1:53am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2743 "2019-02-10T01:53:32Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > CONCORD wants us to settle our differences ourselves, violently, and not burden their legal system with it. Exactly, and to facilitate that the destruction of a capsuleer asset or even the execution of a clone state is not expressly illegal. If it was a criminal offense there would have to be a statute in place which exists that states it is so, but it does not. In such a case, if no laws exist that proscribe violence towards a capsuleer, then one cannot be a criminal for doing so because no crime has been committed. ---
**Author:** ![Diana\_Kim](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/diana_kim/32/382972_2.png) [@Diana\_Kim](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Diana_Kim)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2019, 3:35am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2744 "2019-02-10T03:35:49Z")
According to the same CONCORD’s rules… Killing a capsuleer ship makes you a suspect. Killing a capsuleer makes you a criminal. You are “allowed” only to kill a casuleer if he fought you. Or, well, an official enemy. Enemies are always fine to kill anywhere they are. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2019, 5:19am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2745 "2019-02-10T05:19:08Z")
> [@Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](#): > > In such a case, if no laws exist that proscribe violence towards a capsuleer, then one cannot be a criminal for doing so because no crime has been committed. And? I mean, I refer you back to [your original post](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/off-topic-thread/5128/2712) on this matter. No, there’s no civil suit possible for redress of harm, but we’re not outlaws. We’re just no longer subject to things like State law, except where it concerns actions CONCORD prohibits, or drives the empires to declare us _persona non grata_. So, for example: Being declared a ‘criminal’ who cannot traverse Caldari highsec is a possibility (because they’ve determined that we are no longer welcome in their space), we are no longer bound by things like saaaay… Libel laws. Libel, after all, is a civil matter, and we are not held as party to civil society. (Which remains something very different than being ‘outlaws’.) That, IIRC, is also part of the basis of the Federal courts deciding that ARC, as a Capsuleer organization, didn’t actually have standing to bring suit against the FIO over the Hope For All Act: that we’re not party to ‘civil’ cases. Which, of course, makes the accusations that certain people like to throw around like ‘slander’ utterly meaningless where we’re concerned. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128.md?page=134) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128.md?page=136)