# Utari's Puppies (Formerly Off-Topic Thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [June 21, 2017, 6:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128 "2017-06-21T18:18:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 137
**Author:** ![Makoto\_Priano](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/makoto_priano/32/383919_2.png) [@Makoto\_Priano](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Makoto_Priano)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2019, 4:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2766 "2019-02-13T16:16:43Z")
Delusions of grandeur are an unfortunately common Capsuleer ailment. For that matter, I’m sure ‘being a Capsuleer’ is diagnostic for that. ---
**Author:** ![Che\_Biko](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/che_biko/32/500836_2.png) [@Che\_Biko](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Che_Biko)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 2:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2767 "2019-02-19T14:52:59Z")
> [@A Thread Of Kind Words](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-thread-of-kind-words/7963/379): > > dixmax on u reminen me a wat a mannar is n wat i giront pain on gote a be totalemen even win a persone u think maybe they might make agree > > m full on respec na lie is a beauteou remindeur FUX EM ALL FUX EM n run u face > > 5ho go u I don’t really understand enough of this to make sense of it. ---
**Author:** ![Jade\_Blackwind](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jade_blackwind/32/197719_2.png) [@Jade\_Blackwind](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jade_Blackwind)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 3:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2768 "2019-02-19T15:12:49Z")
> [@Che\_Biko](#): > > I don’t really understand enough of this to make sense of it. I think she likes you and respects you. The last line _probably_ is a high five. ---
**Author:** ![Hun\_Tra](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/hun_tra/32/511052_2.png) [@Hun\_Tra](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Hun_Tra)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 3:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2769 "2019-02-19T15:23:22Z")
> [@Jade\_Blackwind](#): > > The last line _probably_ is a high five. Or “the 5 exotic dancers are on route to you” ---
**Author:** ![Constantin\_Baracca](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/constantin_baracca/32/170074_2.png) [@Constantin\_Baracca](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Constantin_Baracca)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 3:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2770 "2019-02-19T15:33:49Z")
> [@Hun\_Tra](#): > > > [@Jade\_Blackwind](#): > > > > The last line _probably_ is a high five. > > Or “the 5 exotic dancers are on route to you” Che always had all the luck. ---
**Author:** ![Diana\_Kim](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/diana_kim/32/382972_2.png) [@Diana\_Kim](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Diana_Kim)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 3:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2771 "2019-02-19T15:48:19Z")
Could it be 5 black candles going to him? _Highly Overpriced_ though. ---
**Author:** ![Jason\_Galente](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jason_galente/32/383984_2.png) [@Jason\_Galente](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jason_Galente)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 8:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2772 "2019-02-19T20:23:11Z")
> [@\[WANTED\] Gallente sockpuppet for questioning](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/wanted-gallente-sockpuppet-for-questioning/138460/83): > > Axiomatically, you cannot have a ‘good’ cruel and oppressive ruler. I would actually contest this point. Under normal circumstances, one would never refer to a good ruler as cruel and oppressive, but under extreme circumstances, the cruelty and oppressive nature of a ruler can possibly lead to a better outcome than the alternatives available, and can even lead to the aversion of apocalyptic scenarios for a people. Such as existential warfare. It depends on the ruler, of course, and the pros and cons of their regime, but it’s not axiomatically impossible. The axiomatic truth is that cruelty and oppression are not good things, but people themselves, and particularly, leaders, are complicated and cannot be accurately evaluated by “Was he/she a cruel tyrant? If yes = bad”. It is rare in the normal course of governance that these very complicated leaders sprout up, but in the situations that are likely to attract the rise of a tyrant, things are usually already pretty bad and may end up benefiting from a firm hand. I would again stress that this is highly context dependent on the sum of the ruler’s effects on a country, and that most geopolitical situations do not call for this type of government. ---
**Author:** ![Constantin\_Baracca](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/constantin_baracca/32/170074_2.png) [@Constantin\_Baracca](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Constantin_Baracca)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 8:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2773 "2019-02-19T20:28:10Z")
> [@\[WANTED\] Gallente sockpuppet for questioning](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/wanted-gallente-sockpuppet-for-questioning/138460/83): > > > [@\[WANTED\] Gallente sockpuppet for questioning](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/wanted-gallente-sockpuppet-for-questioning/138460/83): > > > > Axiomatically, you cannot have a ‘good’ cruel and oppressive ruler. > > I would actually contest this point. Under normal circumstances, one would never refer to a good ruler as cruel and oppressive, but under extreme circumstances, the cruelty and oppressive nature of a ruler can possibly lead to a better outcome than the alternatives available, and can even lead to the aversion of apocalyptic scenarios for a people. Such as existential warfare. It depends on the ruler, of course, and the pros and cons of their regime, but it’s not axiomatically impossible. The axiomatic truth is that cruelty and oppression are not good things, but people themselves, and particularly, leaders, are complicated and cannot be accurately evaluated by “Was he/she a cruel tyrant? If yes = bad”. It is rare in the normal course of governance that these very complicated leaders sprout up, but in the situations that are likely to attract the rise of a tyrant, things are usually already pretty bad and may end up benefiting from a firm hand. I would again stress that this is highly context dependent on the sum of the ruler’s effects on a country, and that most geopolitical situations do not call for this type of government. It is also true that cruelty and tyranny are rather subjective sentiments. Cruelty tends to be those punishments we personally feel are unjust, tyranny those systems of laws which do not favor us. It is difficult to see the world in such terms, and to understand how we come to rely on those terms to justify our own cruelty and tyranny. Everyone is a villain to someone, the question is really how comfortable we are with those judgments. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 8:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2774 "2019-02-19T20:28:21Z")
Something being necessary does not make it ‘good’. ---
**Author:** ![Jason\_Galente](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jason_galente/32/383984_2.png) [@Jason\_Galente](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jason_Galente)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 8:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2775 "2019-02-19T20:33:39Z")
Something is good if it is the best practicable option available. The reverse sounds like the unrealistic pretentious whinings of a child. And like I said, if the actions of a tyrant saved an entire race of people from extinction, you’d have a hard time convincing any of them or their descendants that the man was a cruel tyrant and thus axiomatically bad. Methods matter, consequences matter more. If we want to go further into this topic, I can provide a sterling example of a cruel tyrant who was ultimately good for his country. One I think you will agree with, actually. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 8:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2776 "2019-02-19T20:35:53Z")
> [@Jason\_Galente](#): > > Something is good if it is the best practicable option available. No, ‘least bad’ isn’t good. It’s just ‘least bad’. Sometimes, there are no ‘good’ options. You just have to suck it up and deal. But go for it, give me your sterling example. ---
**Author:** ![Jason\_Galente](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jason_galente/32/383984_2.png) [@Jason\_Galente](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jason_Galente)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 8:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2777 "2019-02-19T20:36:54Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > > Something is good if it is the best practicable option available. > > No, ‘least bad’ isn’t good. Good doesn’t mean perfect, or even ideal. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 8:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2778 "2019-02-19T20:43:58Z")
No, it means good. And ‘least bad’ still ain’t that. What’s your example? ---
**Author:** ![Jason\_Galente](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jason_galente/32/383984_2.png) [@Jason\_Galente](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jason_Galente)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 8:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2779 "2019-02-19T20:48:04Z")
For my example: The actions of Keitan Yun during the purging of Karsoth agents and assorted other criminals and traitors from the highest levels of government during the Elder invasion. Strictly speaking, his actions were illegal, cruel and oppressive. He took an armed gang into the floor of the Republic Parliament itself, slaughtered anyone whom he had evidence was a Karsoth agent or otherwise a traitor, and laid the evidence of their deeds on their bodies. This was oppressive and tyrannical because it violated the laws of the Republic and violated the right to a fair trial. But it was _necessary_ and once the dust had settled and the Republic was purged of foreign agents, traitors, and assorted criminals, it was _good_ . Killing is evil, breaking the law is evil, denying the right to trial in favor of political murder is cruel and oppressive, but none of these caused as much damage to the entirety of the Republic as those agents did, to say nothing of the damage they could’ve still done if they had been allowed to use that network of agents, embedded within the highest levels of Republic government, to avoid legal justice and execution for their crimes. Yun saw that the Republic at that point was rotten and corrupt to its core and he took swift action that ultimately probably saved the entire government and millions of lives, to say nothing of the autonomy of the Minmatar people. At the cost of a brief period of cruel oppression and tyranny. I will take that trade any day. His actions were ultimately good for the Republic, not just the least bad, they _improved things_. It would have been better if things had never gotten to that point, but that’s hardly something that be laid at Yun’s feet. He and many others knew about it for a long time but he could do nothing until a crisis emerged and he had the proof he needed. He’s an example of a ‘cruel oppressive tyrant’ who did it right. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 8:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2780 "2019-02-19T20:55:22Z")
‘Good for’ means ‘beneficial to’. ‘Good’, on its own, as in ‘is this good?’ is a very different thing, which goes to ethics and morality. Murdering someone and taking their money is _good for_ my bottom line. It’s hardly ‘good’. And while the Shakorite faction’s actions were viewed as ‘necessary’, that doesn’t make _them_ ‘good’, either. Someone once told me ‘there will be times when you will do terrible things, because they are necessary. Regret that necessity, but never regret answer it’. Sometimes, we do bad things for good reasons, because there is no other choice. That doesn’t make them good things. It makes them necessary. It makes us sin-eaters, taking the burden of having to do terrible things, so that others need not. At no point do the terrible things _stop_ being terrible things. At no point should we consider them _good_ things. And to be completely honest, Jason, if these are the two options: A. Something would be considered terrible, but it’s necessary, so it’s good. B. Something would be considered terrible, but it’s necessary. It’s still terrible. Do it anyway and live with that. I don’t see (B) as the ‘childish’ one. ---
**Author:** ![Jason\_Galente](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jason_galente/32/383984_2.png) [@Jason\_Galente](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jason_Galente)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 8:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2781 "2019-02-19T20:58:57Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Sometimes, we do bad things for good reasons, because there is no other choice. That doesn’t make them good things. It makes them necessary. I’ll reiterate, since my post was long and had many details about the specifics of what made it good rather than just necessary. " Yun saw that the Republic at that point was rotten and corrupt to its core and he took swift action that ultimately probably saved the entire government and millions of lives, to say nothing of the autonomy of the Minmatar people. At the cost of a brief period of cruel oppression and tyranny. I will take that trade any day. His actions were ultimately good for the Republic, not just the least bad, they _improved things_ " ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 9:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2782 "2019-02-19T21:06:22Z")
Without going to the question whether “everything is just peachy now” line is factual truth of the current state of affairs in the Republic universally, or maybe _slightly_ exaggerated propaganda by selected statistics by an _illegal_ government seeking to enforce the perception of its legitimacy… Someone _could_ argue that when improvement of material things comes at the cost of leaders of the people setting the example that if _you believe_ it is fine to murder to further your political goals, then _go ahead and murder_, it is not worth it. And even if _worth it_, is it _good_? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 9:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2783 "2019-02-19T21:06:42Z")
And I’ll reiterate, too: > [@Arrendis](#): > > At no point do the terrible things _stop_ being terrible things. At no point should we consider them _good_ things. Something being beneficial in the long run doesn’t necessarily make the action _good_. I can walk up to someone and murder them in cold blood because they’re a horrible human being who owns slaves. That doesn’t make killing them a good thing. It makes murder a bad thing, done for good cause, which benefits others… … but it still isn’t _good_. Good is not just ‘I’m happy with the results’. ---
**Author:** ![Jason\_Galente](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jason_galente/32/383984_2.png) [@Jason\_Galente](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jason_Galente)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 9:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2784 "2019-02-19T21:13:10Z")
> [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](#): > > Without going to the question whether “everything is just peachy now” line is factual truth of the current state of affairs in the Republic universally, or maybe _slightly_ exaggerated propaganda by selected statistics I literally never said that. ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 9:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/2785 "2019-02-19T21:14:51Z")
> [@Jason\_Galente](#): > > I literally never said that. Well, your argument is based on it being _so much better_ that it justifies _murder without due process_ of parliament members and other high officials of _not even your own tribe_. So I assume you are biting pretty deep into the “everything is great” line? [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128.md?page=136) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128.md?page=138)