# Utari's Puppies (Formerly Off-Topic Thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [June 21, 2017, 6:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128 "2017-06-21T18:18:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 172
**Author:** ![Makoto\_Priano](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/makoto_priano/32/383919_2.png) [@Makoto\_Priano](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Makoto_Priano)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2019, 9:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/3470 "2019-06-09T21:49:19Z")
You’ve done a wonderful job of validating my concerns. ---
**Author:** ![Melisma\_Ramijozana](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/melisma_ramijozana/32/168474_2.png) [@Melisma\_Ramijozana](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Melisma_Ramijozana)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2019, 9:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/3471 "2019-06-09T21:50:40Z")
Same. I guess we both leave here just chuffed. ---
**Author:** ![Isha\_Vuld](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/isha_vuld/32/470113_2.png) [@Isha\_Vuld](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Isha_Vuld)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2019, 11:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/3472 "2019-06-09T23:38:22Z")
> [@Diana\_Kim](#): > > For a well-weighted and meritocratic organization hiring all races is the must. Different races have different traits and by composing a team of people with different abilities, putting people into specializations their race, education and experience favors, you can build you an hierarchy more efficient than your competitors. This is an enlightened point of view to take. I agree, though cautiously, as cultural differences can cause quite a bit of trouble, as you yourself noted earlier. > [@Diana\_Kim](#): > > On the other hand, restricting leadership to matari only, just because you’re matari - that’s a blatant racism. Leadership is better to be chosen from the people with the most suitable leadership qualities, who statistically have to be Deteis. Is that not racism in itself, and also too generic to be accurate? What, precisely, would they be leading? But more to the point, how do you account for the individual factors in people? You cannot deny that there must be deities who are terrible at leadership just as there are Brutor who excel at it. Race does not define a person, after all, and one can rise above even cultural preprogramming. > [@Diana\_Kim](#): > > If they betrayed once, they can betray again. I am not sure if this is true or false. Treason generally involves massive risk to oneself and almost always involves a massive loss in status and personal property. This is not generally the sort of thing one endures lightly, and as such, they may well be extremely loyal to their new employer, as they where willing to lose so much for it. The exception to this rule, of course, are those who are _bribed_ into serving another nation. Obviously, one can never trust those people. The same goes for moral crusaders, who crusade for a set of moral virtues, rather then a real, tangible cause. For what will they do once their chosen cause doesn’t fit their morals anymore? Still. It’s not always that grim. ---
**Author:** ![Diana\_Kim](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/diana_kim/32/382972_2.png) [@Diana\_Kim](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Diana_Kim)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2019, 1:15am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/3473 "2019-06-10T01:15:15Z")
> [@Isha\_Vuld](#): > > Is that not racism in itself, and also too generic to be accurate? What, precisely, would they be leading? But more to the point, how do you account for the individual factors in people? You cannot deny that there must be deities who are terrible at leadership just as there are Brutor who excel at it. Race does not define a person, after all, and one can rise above even cultural preprogramming. Statistically, Ms. Vuld. Indeed it doesn’t mean that \>every\< Deteis will be better at management than \>any\< Brutor. It only means they have genetic affinity to that, will they develop it or not depends on the person, of course. > [@Isha\_Vuld](#): > > I am not sure if this is true or false. Treason generally involves massive risk to oneself and almost always involves a massive loss in status and personal property. This is not generally the sort of thing one endures lightly, and as such, they may well be extremely loyal to their new employer, as they where willing to lose so much for it. > > The exception to this rule, of course, are those who are _bribed_ into serving another nation. Obviously, one can never trust those people. The same goes for moral crusaders, who crusade for a set of moral virtues, rather then a real, tangible cause. For what will they do once their chosen cause doesn’t fit their morals anymore? > > Still. It’s not always that grim. Traitors are cowards, Ms. Vuld! In majority of cases behind every treason there’s a lesser crime, consequence of which the traitor was trying to evade. Traitors, who think their superiors gave them illegal orders are cowards, who was afraid to risk to arrest their commander or were afraid to commit suicide to show their commander they were wrong. Traitors, who receive the money, run from the consequence of collaboration with the enemy. So called “moral crusaders”, who betray real people for some moral nonsence and empty ideals are just too dumb to realize the risk. Most likely they are cowards as well, since they always could have talked to their superior officer if they had any concerns about ideals. For example, if any of my crewmembers would approach me and tell me that gallente ideals are not evil - of course I will chastice him. Of course, I will issue him a punishment - just because everyone must bear consequences of their words. But at the same time I will listen to him and address any of the points he will bring, taking a role of a teacher and a guide - I am responsible for them. If a person has a problem with morals he most likely won’t be able to solve it by himself, he would NEED to ask questions and to get answers. On the other hand, he will be punished for speaking up. He must show courage to speak up and accept the punishment. If he just runs away, afraid to tell about his doubts - he’s a coward. Such people don’t deserve to wear military uniform. They are a disgrace. ---
**Author:** ![Isha\_Vuld](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/isha_vuld/32/470113_2.png) [@Isha\_Vuld](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Isha_Vuld)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2019, 8:13am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/3474 "2019-06-10T08:13:23Z")
> [@Diana\_Kim](#): > > It only means they have genetic affinity to that, will they develop it or not depends on the person, of course. I can´t argue with this, though I would bring up “culture” as just as important as genetics. how we are raised has a massive role in how we are shaped. It would not be folly to say, for example, that Brutor have a “cultural affinity” for fighting, because that is true. Our upbringing stimulates that. And when I look at myself in the mirror, it’s hard to deny that I have a “genetic affinity” for combat and heavy labour. And reaching the top shelf. But I also want to bring up that aside from the most generic of traits, genetics can be very random. We inherit all manner of talents and shortcomings from our parents that is not racially bound at all. Level of intelligence, particular talents, tics, and so forth. The odds of any person perfectly aligning with their “racial stereotype” are quite low, but I find the culture they are raised in is a much more reliable indicator of what kind of person they will become. > [@Diana\_Kim](#): > > Traitors are cowards, Ms. Vuld! In majority of cases behind every treason there’s a lesser crime, consequence of which the traitor was trying to evade. True. But I think those who switch sides because they genuinely believe in your cause should get a pass, though I am aware those are extremely rare. ---
**Author:** ![Valerie\_Valate](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/valerie_valate/32/386231_2.png) [@Valerie\_Valate](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Valerie_Valate)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2019, 11:55am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/3475 "2019-06-10T11:55:18Z")
This attack by Omir Sarikusa’s lot on Pator shows what a spinning bow tie extravaganza the Covenant has become. It is a colossal galactopolitical mistake, as it unambiguously delineates the Covenant as as unequivocal enemy of the Republic, as opposed to the pseudo potential ally that some thought it would be - see Mabnem as an example of when the Minmatar thought the Covenant was a potential ally against the Amarr Empire. But now Omir has blown it and everyone hates the Covenant now. Great move, ya big butte. ---
**Author:** ![Valerie\_Valate](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/valerie_valate/32/386231_2.png) [@Valerie\_Valate](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Valerie_Valate)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2019, 12:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/3476 "2019-06-10T12:01:58Z")
Also I’m posting here because I don’t want to ■■■■ up Elsebeths thread with Sani Sabik politics baloney, because unlike Omir Sarikusa, I am not a colossal butte. ---
**Author:** ![Lunarisse\_Aspenstar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lunarisse_aspenstar/32/478487_2.png) [@Lunarisse\_Aspenstar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lunarisse_Aspenstar)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2019, 12:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/3477 "2019-06-10T12:12:31Z")
A bit troubled by a lot of ‘overflagging’ of late. Agree or disagree, there’s nothing about most of the posts in this thread that should be flagged: [Triglavian management plan (1)](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/triglavian-management-plan-1/165333). if disagreement is enough there’d be nothing to read. And the IGS debate always winds… ---
**Author:** ![Jade\_Blackwind](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jade_blackwind/32/197719_2.png) [@Jade\_Blackwind](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jade_Blackwind)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2019, 12:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/3478 "2019-06-10T12:25:07Z")
> [@Valerie\_Valate](#): > > This attack by Omir Sarikusa’s lot on Pator shows what a spinning bow tie extravaganza the Covenant has become. It is a colossal galactopolitical mistake, as it unambiguously delineates the Covenant as as unequivocal enemy of the Republic, as opposed to the pseudo potential ally that some thought it would be - see Mabnem as an example of when the Minmatar thought the Covenant was a potential ally against the Amarr Empire. But now Omir has blown it and everyone hates the Covenant now. Great move, ya big butte. Well, everyone hated the Covenant anyway even before this, most Minmatar just kinda didn’t care. Now they do. ---
**Author:** ![Isha\_Vuld](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/isha_vuld/32/470113_2.png) [@Isha\_Vuld](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Isha_Vuld)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2019, 12:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/3479 "2019-06-10T12:29:41Z")
> [@Lunarisse\_Aspenstar](#): > > A bit troubled by a lot of ‘overflagging’ of late. Agree or disagree, there’s nothing about most of the posts in this thread that should be flagged: [Triglavian management plan (1)](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/triglavian-management-plan-1/165333). > > if disagreement is enough there’d be nothing to read. And the IGS debate always winds… I agree. Don´t flag down posts you don´t like, people! Keep it fair. ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2019, 12:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/3480 "2019-06-10T12:50:26Z")
> [@Jade\_Blackwind](#): > > most Minmatar just kinda didn’t care. Now they do. Quoted for truth. ---
**Author:** ![Kalodote\_Lafisques](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kalodote_lafisques/32/388261_2.png) [@Kalodote\_Lafisques](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kalodote_Lafisques)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2019, 1:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/3481 "2019-06-10T13:15:54Z")
The messages (at least those of this being) have been reported as “Off-topic”. ---
**Author:** ![Valerie\_Valate](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/valerie_valate/32/386231_2.png) [@Valerie\_Valate](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Valerie_Valate)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2019, 2:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/3482 "2019-06-10T14:27:14Z")
> [@Jade\_Blackwind](#): > > Well, everyone hated the Covenant anyway even before this, most Minmatar just kinda didn’t care. Now they do. Well you know what they say. Better to remain silent and be thought neutral possible hostile, than to bomb someone’s homeworld and remove all doubt. ---
**Author:** ![Constantin\_Baracca](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/constantin_baracca/32/170074_2.png) [@Constantin\_Baracca](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Constantin_Baracca)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2019, 3:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/3483 "2019-06-10T15:13:03Z")
To be fair, it isn’t as if they were ever really in the business of making friends. It’s sort of antithetical to their theological philosophy. ---
**Author:** ![Jade\_Blackwind](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jade_blackwind/32/197719_2.png) [@Jade\_Blackwind](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jade_Blackwind)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2019, 3:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/3484 "2019-06-10T15:55:22Z")
> [@Constantin\_Baracca](#): > > To be fair, it isn’t as if they were ever really in the business of making friends. It’s sort of antithetical to their theological philosophy. It’s Omir. If he ever could see something in the Republic, it’s a resource to be manipulated against the Empire and a potential pool of converts and slaves. Apparently, he’s convinced that this raid changes little. Or Sanguina is right and this is a Triglavian style “proving”, and hatred, rage and desire for vengeance is exactly what Omir seeks to inspire. He wants to gouge the Matari into action. ---
**Author:** ![Melisma\_Ramijozana](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/melisma_ramijozana/32/168474_2.png) [@Melisma\_Ramijozana](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Melisma_Ramijozana)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2019, 5:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/3485 "2019-06-10T17:15:50Z")
It’s a Diana Kim-led topic that dissolved into childish bickering. Nothing has ever been more on-topic. ---
**Author:** ![Melisma\_Ramijozana](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/melisma_ramijozana/32/168474_2.png) [@Melisma\_Ramijozana](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Melisma_Ramijozana)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2019, 5:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/3486 "2019-06-10T17:21:07Z")
> [@Jade\_Blackwind](#): > > He wants to gouge the Matari into action. And he has, albeit perhaps not the sort of action he wanted. Unless it was a very diplomatic appeal to the Tribal Council that he was wanting. Oh, capsuleers will be more interested in killing blooders, but that’s not a cluster-altering change. And we were already suspicious of the Kingdom. So aside from that massive bulk of kredits he’s cashing, and probably some thousands of our people as slaves, I’m not sure what extra he came away with. ---
**Author:** ![Diana\_Kim](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/diana_kim/32/382972_2.png) [@Diana\_Kim](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Diana_Kim)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2019, 5:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/3487 "2019-06-10T17:36:32Z")
> [@Melisma\_Ramijozana](#): > > It’s a Diana Kim-led topic that dissolved into childish bickering. Nothing has ever been more on-topic. It’s amusing how a person who brings the most childing bickerings in topics dares to blame others in childish bickering. You would explode a hypocrisy-o-meter if an ethics police would ask you to speak into a tube 🤣 ---
**Author:** ![Constantin\_Baracca](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/constantin_baracca/32/170074_2.png) [@Constantin\_Baracca](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Constantin_Baracca)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2019, 5:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/3488 "2019-06-10T17:51:42Z")
It’s part of the theology. The stronger the resistance you overcome, the stronger the blood’s potency (or so I understand it). So by taking so many, especially so many young and prime warriors, from the untouchable heart of the Republic, what they took has immeasurable value to them. To us, it is callous, cruel, and wasteful, but to them, this is the pinnacle of their religious achievement. ---
**Author:** ![Kalodote\_Lafisques](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kalodote_lafisques/32/388261_2.png) [@Kalodote\_Lafisques](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kalodote_Lafisques)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2019, 6:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/3489 "2019-06-10T18:16:37Z")
It’s part of “we started to talk about other arguments than the original”. Don’t start to complain here too! [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128.md?page=171) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128.md?page=173)