# Utari's Puppies (Formerly Off-Topic Thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [June 21, 2017, 6:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128 "2017-06-21T18:18:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 180
**Author:** ![Diana\_Kim](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/diana_kim/32/382972_2.png) [@Diana\_Kim](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Diana_Kim)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2019, 8:59am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/3634 "2019-07-01T08:59:33Z")
I would be glad to kill him even if I had to kill myself for that too. ---
**Author:** ![Timiko\_Sato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/timiko_sato/32/282419_2.png) [@Timiko\_Sato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Timiko_Sato)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2019, 7:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/3635 "2019-07-01T19:04:17Z")
I want try to explain something for better understanding of our way of life, Mr. Lafisques. The State organize citizens’s life and invests much in it from very beginning. Provide best medicine in the cluster free of charge. Seek persons’s streights and weaknesses. Align to the most suitable position in the society. State give to the citizen all necessary for life, so one can fully concentrate on his work, on contribution to the greater good. And I see it understandable that The State want to have dividends from such investments. This is one of the reasons of strict rules and pressure of some kind. I fully agree, that our system is far from being ideal. Moreover, I understand, that from point of individualism this is nightmare. But we live with it and not so bad. And as our history shows we _can_ make revolution if something will go wrong. So, I think that our model of society and our way of life have full right for existence. Oh, and Ms. Kim described our schools quite wrong. Lessions is not so long, as she pictured, but we have wide range of school clubs and extracurricular activities. So childrens really may be busy all day, but not in schooling only. ---
**Author:** ![Utari\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/utari_onzo/32/378493_2.png) [@Utari\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Utari_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2019, 7:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/3636 "2019-07-01T19:08:47Z")
It must also be noted that the State is huge, encompassing many planets and stations. Not everyone will have exactly the same experiences, and will see them with a different point of view. It’s best to not rely on just one source for your view point. This isn’t invalidating Commander Kim’s statements at all or saying she’s wrong, merely saying that her experiences and interpretations will, naturally, differ from other State citizens and those that grew up there simply due to sheer scale and variations within it. ---
**Author:** ![Kalodote\_Lafisques](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kalodote_lafisques/32/388261_2.png) [@Kalodote\_Lafisques](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kalodote_Lafisques)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2019, 9:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/3637 "2019-07-01T21:47:38Z")
You have been good enough to talk calmly about your state without any insult or aggressive behavior against this being’s person and his country. This being appreciates that. Yes, your state can exist. You have one of infinite existing cultures of the humanity that has pros and cons. The latter, the cons, worried this being, that’s the point. But if you manage to get well at a country like the Caldari State, doing your work without disobeying your superiors, you can live a good life exploiting all the best your state can offer. Remembering the intergalactic definitions: “The state offers the best and the worst of the life to his people”. ---
**Author:** ![Charles\_Cambridge\_Schmidt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/charles_cambridge_schmidt/32/372217_2.png) [@Charles\_Cambridge\_Schmidt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Charles_Cambridge_Schmidt)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 5:01am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/3638 "2019-07-02T05:01:09Z")
can someone tell me i’m pretty please. thanks ---
**Author:** ![Valerie\_Valate](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/valerie_valate/32/386231_2.png) [@Valerie\_Valate](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Valerie_Valate)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 5:37am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/3639 "2019-07-02T05:37:42Z")
You’re pretty, superficial. ---
**Author:** ![Charles\_Cambridge\_Schmidt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/charles_cambridge_schmidt/32/372217_2.png) [@Charles\_Cambridge\_Schmidt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Charles_Cambridge_Schmidt)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 6:44am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/3640 "2019-07-02T06:44:49Z")
wowee ---
**Author:** ![Valerie\_Valate](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/valerie_valate/32/386231_2.png) [@Valerie\_Valate](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Valerie_Valate)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 9:43am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/3641 "2019-07-02T09:43:52Z")
I put in the comma, to suggest that "superficial " is just my pet name for you. ---
**Author:** ![Diana\_Kim](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/diana_kim/32/382972_2.png) [@Diana\_Kim](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Diana_Kim)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2019, 4:27am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/3642 "2019-07-03T04:27:48Z")
> [@Proposals Regarding Wrecks and Cargo Containers Containing Living Persons](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposals-regarding-wrecks-and-cargo-containers-containing-living-persons/158164/15): > > He’s a Navy veteran, from the same planet as me, and a commoner who went completely insane over quite a few issues. That must have been related to someone under him and Minmatar by blood, maybe, a slave crew member during his service. And, yeah, he’s certainly isn’t a Holder of any kind. Aren’t capsuleers considered almost as Holders in the Empire? I had this feeling somehow. ---
**Author:** ![Samira\_Kernher](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/samira_kernher/32/244840_2.png) [@Samira\_Kernher](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Samira_Kernher)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2019, 6:40am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/3643 "2019-07-03T06:40:24Z")
No. We are of an equivalent social class that can interact somewhat freely with nobles and Holders, but that does not make us nobility or Holders. ---
**Author:** ![Utari\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/utari_onzo/32/378493_2.png) [@Utari\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Utari_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2019, 7:00am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/3644 "2019-07-03T07:00:16Z")
Slave ownership rights vary between the Kingdom and the rest of the Empire it must be noted, and there are slight variations over rules governing commoners having custodianship in the different royal regions as well. ---
**Author:** ![Tamiroth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tamiroth/32/277869_2.png) [@Tamiroth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tamiroth)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2019, 9:43am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/3645 "2019-07-03T09:43:44Z")
This feeling mostly comes from two things: First, the Empire, just like the State, is unwilling or unable to enforce the law on “independent” capsuleers beyond sending token Navy and Police squads after them. Things like revoking a license or a clone contract have to go through CONCORD. Most crimes the capsuleers commit do not meet the proper consequences they deserve. In that sense, the capsuleers are allowed much more leeway than any real Holder ever had. Second, there is that horrific thing that I call the “CONCORD slavery”. It is a technical and bureaucratical oversight that arose when SCC was established and the first Neocom versions were programmed. For the purpose of interstellar market and cargo inventory management, there is an unit of cargo designated as “Slaves”, and the system doesn’t care what it really is and whom is it being sold to. When capsuleers connect to the Imperial station markets, the legit Imperial slaves listed for sale are also lumped into this single category. The Imperial slavery system with all its extensive rules and bookkeeping and the “CONCORD slavery” where you just have an unit of digitally tracked cargo intermingle there and it just breaks everything. So in reality that unit of “Slaves” might or might not be a slave at all, and noone cares. I can write off that unit of cargo as destroyed with a single sweep of my finger, and noone would care what happens with that person afterwards either; I can go and push them out of the airlock or give them a billion ISK and sponsor for pilot training, but for the system, the “unit of Slaves” just ceases to exist. However, “freeing” a CONCORD slave that way doesn’t free them if they are an Imperial slave, because all the records are still there. As you see, it’s a horrible mess inviting things like Nauplius and Havohej to happen. A loophole in the market categories does not make them Holders. And this SCC “trade good” should just stop existing, period. ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2019, 10:19am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/3646 "2019-07-03T10:19:34Z")
> [@Tamiroth](#): > > However, “freeing” a CONCORD slave that way doesn’t free them if they are an Imperial slave, because all the records are still there. Just watch me. ---
**Author:** ![Tamiroth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tamiroth/32/277869_2.png) [@Tamiroth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tamiroth)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2019, 10:26am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/3647 "2019-07-03T10:26:54Z")
> [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](#): > > Just watch me. Sure, you can free them de-facto, bring that person to the Republic, get them adopted into a clan or whatever and live the rest of their life as any other free Matari would. But for the Imperial law they’ll remain a slave. ---
**Author:** ![Mizhir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mizhir/32/379234_2.png) [@Mizhir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mizhir)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2019, 10:32am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/3648 "2019-07-03T10:32:51Z")
> [@Tamiroth](#): > > But for the Imperial law they’ll remain a slave. I highly doubt that they are going to book a vacation to the Empire. ---
**Author:** ![Lithara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lithara/32/268412_2.png) [@Lithara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lithara)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2019, 4:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/3649 "2019-07-03T16:01:33Z")
> [@Tamiroth](#): > > But for the Imperial law they’ll remain a slave. Thank the gods Imperial law only matters in the Amarr Empire. The rest of us don’t give a fuuuuuuuuck. ---
**Author:** ![Tamiroth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tamiroth/32/277869_2.png) [@Tamiroth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tamiroth)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2019, 4:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/3650 "2019-07-03T16:29:12Z")
> [@Lithara](#): > > Thank the gods Imperial law only matters in the Amarr Empire. The rest of us don’t give a fuuuuuuuuck. On one hand, you as well as Mizhir are absolutely correct. If the freed one keeps a low profile and just lives their new life without “booking a vacation to the Empire”, whatever the Imperial law thinks of them doesn’t matter. On the other hand, I don’t give it either about whatever a Sani Sabik Goon thinks about the Imperial law. ---
**Author:** ![Havohej](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/havohej/32/325132_2.png) [@Havohej](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Havohej)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2019, 7:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/3651 "2019-07-03T19:03:47Z")
> [@Tamiroth](#): > > Havohej Implying the people I enslaved were purchased from SCC regulated markets. ---
**Author:** ![Melisma\_Ramijozana](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/melisma_ramijozana/32/168474_2.png) [@Melisma\_Ramijozana](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Melisma_Ramijozana)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2019, 7:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/3652 "2019-07-03T19:34:05Z")
> [@Proposals Regarding Wrecks and Cargo Containers Containing Living Persons](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposals-regarding-wrecks-and-cargo-containers-containing-living-persons/158164/35): > > I honestly prefer coffee. Sorry, I’m out of coffee. Can I substitute whoopass? Look. I get that you’ve had some great conversations with Diana Kim. I also get that you’re naturally inclined to look for the best in people, and that you are always open to considering the other side of an argument. And yes, for my part, this is personal. And what hurts me is that _you know why,_ because you were sitting right there. _There is never a justifiable reason to take innocent lives._ So there’s a serial killer on the wreck? How does that justify killing the person or people on there with him? This is _space_ we’re talking about. Even if he somehow pulls off a miraculous escape, his capture isn’t worth the lives that would be lost in the process, and the families that would be destroyed in the same strike. I know that personally. So do you. And here’s the thing: This isn’t a subjective viewpoint. It’s an objective one. _All lives have value._ That’s why capsuleers of all different stripes are coming together on this matter. It’s also why you only see monsters like Nauplius and Diana Kim raising objections to it. “Commander Kim isn’t a monster. It’s her job.” It’s no one’s job to kill civilians. It’s no one’s job to commit race crimes. It’s no one’s job to be petty for no reason, _when she has the opportunity to be real._ The fact that Kim is espousing a view that is objectively held as vile by society is nothing that would surprise anyone that’s spent time here on IGS. The fact that you’re supporting her is nausea-inducing. Constantin, you do realize that when she refused to acknowledge me at the writing contest dinner, that that was a direct act of sabotage? That she did so as a way of undermining my success, merely because I am Matari? It may not have been as obvious as Vaari throwing a fit, but it’s no less pervasive. It’s the suggestion that my race makes me smaller than her, unfit to wear the medal around my neck (or carry the puppy in my arms). It’s the implication that I’m not fit to sit next to nobility. It is. _Racism._ And it happened right in front of you. So why the ■■■■ do you think it’s appropriate to continue to look for the best in that creature, when she couldn’t even rise to the opportunity in that moment? When she weaponized her racism against someone who you, assumedly, consider a friend? To bring it back on topic, and a bit less personal, _why,_ after witnessing said racist act, would you continue to assume that Kim is making an argument against saving lives for the sake of the demands of her job? The rest of us see clearly what you refuse to acknowledge: Her hatred for Gallente and Matari pervades her _every word._ She has no good intentions. She wants to destroy those she views as her foes, who have committed no crime against her, but are simply _different_ from her. Supporting someone as vicious, empty, and hateful as that isn’t a call to your own virtue. It’s an exposition of your own naïveté. > [@Proposals Regarding Wrecks and Cargo Containers Containing Living Persons](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposals-regarding-wrecks-and-cargo-containers-containing-living-persons/158164/32): > > For being an Archbishop, your hesitance in this matter is not only disappointing, but telling. Quoted here because I couldn’t ■■■■■■■ say it better myself, except maybe to add that for being a _man,_ as you put it, or being a friend, as I did, is just as ruinous. ---
**Author:** ![Charles\_Cambridge\_Schmidt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/charles_cambridge_schmidt/32/372217_2.png) [@Charles\_Cambridge\_Schmidt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Charles_Cambridge_Schmidt)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2019, 7:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/3653 "2019-07-03T19:46:26Z")
Ooooh, I am swooning. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128.md?page=179) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128.md?page=181)