# Utari's Puppies (Formerly Off-Topic Thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [June 21, 2017, 6:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128 "2017-06-21T18:18:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![Tannia\_Ambrye](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tannia_ambrye/32/410653_2.png) [@Tannia\_Ambrye](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tannia_Ambrye)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 6:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/541 "2018-01-22T18:01:30Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > No. She has, in fact, specifically refused to do so on the grounds that it might inconvenience her mistress. I appreciate your input Ms. Arrendis, but I think it’s important that Ms. Jenneth answer the question. That said, a loyal retainer, I think, would feel obligated to help her mistress do well even if it means inconveniencing either or both of them to achieve that goal. If the person Ms. Jenneth swore loyalty to is as decent a person as some say, she may appreciate Ms. Jenneth’s efforts even if they can sometimes be inconvenient at times. ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 6:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/542 "2018-01-22T18:03:34Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > But at least you don’t deny that you only feel empathy toward those you have to personally deal with. To the degree that might be true, Arrendis, it’s not something limited to me. It’s pretty easy to feel empathy for people you can see; harder, to feel it for people you know exist, but who remain abstract as a kind of faceless sea of “humanity.” It’s ordinary to have trouble mustering deep feeling for an abstraction. It’s one of the reasons flags, images of rulers, and other symbols people can form an attachment to are so useful for nation-states: turning the abstract into something a little more concrete. It’s also why charitable concerns will show you pictures of people you might be helping, children especially, as part of their marketing. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 6:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/543 "2018-01-22T18:59:08Z")
> [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > To the degree that might be true, Arrendis, it’s not something limited to me. Is that supposed to make it ok? You’re just one of the unthinking, cud-chewing herd? > [@Tannia\_Ambrye](#): > > I think it’s important that Ms. Jenneth answer the question. Don’t hold your breath. ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 7:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/544 "2018-01-22T19:08:11Z")
Sure, I guess. I don’t really claim I’m better than the people around me, or aspire to be more than human. The easiest way to stand out in the Totality is to make a big splash that hurts a lot of people. I’d rather be someone small. Really, if you despise the people around me, I might be a little offended if you don’t despise me, too. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 7:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/545 "2018-01-22T19:38:56Z")
> [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > The easiest way to stand out in the Totality is to make a big splash that hurts a lot of people So instead, support the status quo… that hurts a lot of people. ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 8:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/546 "2018-01-22T20:15:51Z")
Are you qualified to fix the world, Arrendis? I’m not. “Utopia Instigation” wasn’t one of the skills my predecessor left me, and it seems to have dropped off the market. The problem with upsetting the status quo is how hard it is to control what happens as a result. The Amarrian error state is … … it seems better to me if they just kind of keep on as they are. (My big try at changing the world wasn’t such a good thing, either.) I’m bored of discussing this with you (again), and we’ve added more than enough posts re-treading this tired old ground, so this’ll be my last response. Think what you like. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 8:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/547 "2018-01-22T20:17:54Z")
> [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > aspire to be more than human And really, let’s just dispense with this crap right now. Nobody’s calling on anyone to be ‘more than human’. You’re not even _being_ human. You’re being a drone, an insect. Human beings are one twig (maybe!) on a much bigger evolutionary tree. That’s obvious just based on the sheer variety of things we can eat that grow on planets we’re not from. All of those myriad species on a few hundred different worlds all having the same amino acid basis? Clear evidence of a common origin, even if we didn’t have the ‘Erf’ legend in dozens of cultures. Within that tree, we’re primates. Primates, more or less across the board, exhibit tendencies toward justice and empathy—especially justice in the sense not of punishment, but of righting ‘wrongs’ and alleviating suffering. It’s one of the behavioral cues that seems to be almost hardwired into the primate brain. So to be human is to be empathetic, to seek justice, to try to alleviate suffering. And yes, it _is_ easy to distance yourself from abstractions, to not think about suffering that isn’t right in front of you. So what? Human society is predicated on the idea of ‘I don’t hurt you, you don’t hurt me’. So people engaging in systemic abuse and harm to others aren’t just hurting their victims, they’re attacking the very underpinnings of society. They’re violating the basic social contract, and in doing so, inviting harm upon themselves. In fact, considering the primate hardwiring toward justice, they’re almost demanding it. So sure, it’s easy to let ourselves engage in behaviors we picked up at earlier stages in our development—preying on one another, being indifferent to suffering as long as _we_ get to remain comfortable. But don’t mistake that for ‘just being human’. _Ants_ can follow orders and contribute to the collective, too. And I’ll wager you a bet that a sparefaring civilization of 2-meter ants, constantly expanding, trying to absorb everyone else, or wiping out those who won’t work for the hive, only stopping when they encounter military power they _can’t_ just overwhelm… that’d be looked at as monsters, not ‘people’. So don’t go trying to paint this as saying you’d have to ‘aspire to be more than human’. Maybe instead, you could trying actually _being human_, instead of just a drone. > [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > Are you qualified to fix the world, Arrendis? I’m not. Fix it? I dunno. _Try_? Yeah. I’m qualified to give it my best shot. Here, lemme give you my qualifications, maybe you’ll find they apply to you, too! 1. I’m alive. 2. I live in this universe. Yep, that’s basically all it takes to have the right _and responsibility_ to try. > [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > I’m bored of discussing this with you (again) I’ve noticed you get that way when you start running low on deflections, yeah. ---
**Author:** ![Tannia\_Ambrye](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tannia_ambrye/32/410653_2.png) [@Tannia\_Ambrye](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tannia_Ambrye)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 8:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/548 "2018-01-22T20:46:36Z")
> [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > (My big try at changing the world wasn’t such a good thing, either.) I don’t think anybody is asking you to do something “big.” Some of the most important things we’ll do in life are small, seemingly trivial even, but can have lasting impact that can change lives and alter history. Rescuing Minmatar slaves from Mr. Nauplius is big, but doesn’t fix the problem. While I’m glad that you do it, you balk at even trying to influence… It’s Ms. Aspenstar that you’ve sworn loyalty to, right? At any rate, you balk at the suggestion of trying to influence her on the issue of slavery. How do you know that she doesn’t want you to give your views on slavery among the Amarr, or even offer advice? Your position is a bit unique, maybe there’s a reason that she chose you and it wasn’t just to “rescue” you. Maybe she needs, no wants, you to nudge her in the right direction from time to time? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 8:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/549 "2018-01-22T20:53:46Z")
> [@Tannia\_Ambrye](#): > > Rescuing Minmatar slaves from Mr. Nauplius is big, but doesn’t fix the problem. That’s just it: she rescued slaves from Napkins because _he shoved them in her face_. He made her feel uncomfortable, and he wouldn’t stop. As long as she can ignore a problem, she will. ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 9:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/550 "2018-01-22T21:37:23Z")
“Influence” is a tricky thing in my situation, Ms. Ambrye. In a funny way, it might be easier if I were a member of the Imperial Rite. Then at least, even if I weren’t of exactly high status, my voice would at least be that of a believer. Instead, I’m a heathen, which means everything I have to say about Amarrian society and faith is sort of presumed to be ignorant and wrong. The Pax Amarria preaches spreading of the faith through persuasion, and I’m definitely a target for eventual conversion in that way. But … as targets for such a thing go, I’m a little tough: I’m from the clerical caste of my own society, and religiously trained, and if I’m being exposed to the Amarr, the Amarr are also being exposed to me a bit. I’m sure there are people, particularly those who put more faith in the time-tested methods of converting a captive audience, who look at the situation and frown, wondering what terrible corrupting notions I might be filling the directrix’s head with. Me doing stuff like that-- actively trying to change stuff in a society where I’m not even properly a member-- could be a real problem. When Arrendis talks about “inconvenience,” that might make it sound like a small thing, but … … in the end, I’m not here to change the Amarr. That’s not my duty or role. And if I tried, it wouldn’t probably work out very well for any of us. (That doesn’t stop me from finding some of the changes the Amarr seem to be making, themselves, really encouraging.) ---
**Author:** ![Aldrith\_Shutaq](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aldrith_shutaq/32/378618_2.png) [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aldrith_Shutaq)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 9:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/551 "2018-01-22T21:58:42Z")
Is this officially another “grr Amarr and people who tolerate them” thread yet? ---
**Author:** ![Kalaratiri](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kalaratiri/32/477189_2.png) [@Kalaratiri](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kalaratiri)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 10:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/552 "2018-01-22T22:01:39Z")
No, it’s Off Topic, it says so right in the title ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 10:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/553 "2018-01-22T22:02:19Z")
And there you go, Tannia. Do you see the common thread she adheres to? > [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > It’s pretty **easy** to feel empathy for people you can see; **harder** , to feel it for people you know exist, but who remain abstract as a kind of faceless sea of “humanity.” > [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > The **easiest** way to stand out in the Totality is to make a big splash that hurts a lot of people. > [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > The **problem** with upsetting the status quo is **how hard it is** to control what happens as a result. > [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > In a funny way, it might be **easier** if I were a member of the Imperial Rite. Napkins made it **hard** for her to ignore the things he was rubbing her nose in. So she reacted to them. She’s not going to rouse herself to do something, even if she feels she _should_, as long as it’s **easier** to just get along. After all, if she didn’t think those changes she’s seeing were a good thing, they wouldn’t be ‘encouraging’. So she clearly believes the changes _should_ be made… she’s just not willing to take any risks, to make any effort, to help those changes along. > [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](#): > > Is this officially another “grr Amarr and people who tolerate them” thread yet? We could segue over complaining about your hair being wasted on a _guy_ if you prefer. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Jev\_North](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jev_north/32/100533_2.png) [@Jev\_North](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jev_North)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 10:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/554 "2018-01-22T22:09:51Z")
It’s **easy** to randomly highlight occurrences of the words **easy** and **hard** with little regard for context and argument, far more so than actually helping people. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 10:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/555 "2018-01-22T22:10:56Z")
It is. Fortunately, the context in this case was entirely applicable. But nice try. ---
**Author:** ![Tannia\_Ambrye](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tannia_ambrye/32/410653_2.png) [@Tannia\_Ambrye](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tannia_Ambrye)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 10:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/556 "2018-01-22T22:16:53Z")
> [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](#): > > Is this officially another “grr Amarr and people who tolerate them” thread yet? Nah. I don’t growl at people, except if they try to share my food. That’s a big, “Nope!” Actually, I think the Amarr are on the right path in their current social evolution. I was just wondering if Ms. Jenneth could have a role to play in helping it along, however small. It seems to me that maybe the person she works for might have hired her for more than Ms. Jenneth’s loyalty, but her unique insight and perspective. Ms. Jenneth seems to disagree, however. ---
**Author:** ![Aldrith\_Shutaq](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aldrith_shutaq/32/378618_2.png) [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aldrith_Shutaq)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 10:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/557 "2018-01-22T22:17:32Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > We could segue over complaining about your hair being wasted on a guy if you prefer. 😛 Yes, let’s. Men have every right to have nice hair too! It’s not wasted on me, it’s shameful that everyone else is not blessed with such luxurious locks. If I could I’d give my hair to everyone in the cluster I would, but unfortunately only my hair care products and techniques can do that. That said, Vesper does have a habit of being morally complacent at times. It bothers me too, Arrendis, but not as much as it does you now that she is mostly non-violent and cultuvating a connection to fellow decent human beings. Just because those human beings are Amarr does not give you the right to rub her nose in the dirt, however. You should have been saying all of this when she nearly went off the dark end, as I did. ---
**Author:** ![Tannia\_Ambrye](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tannia_ambrye/32/410653_2.png) [@Tannia\_Ambrye](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tannia_Ambrye)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 10:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/558 "2018-01-22T22:22:41Z")
Yes, I see the common thread Ms. Arrendis. I can’t help but feel that Ms. Jenneth is hiding more from herself than anything else though. Which is too bad, Ms. Jenneth is clearly formidable when she chooses to be and I suspect that’s what scares her. But listen to me psychoanalyze. I should stop, I’m not qualified. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 10:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/559 "2018-01-22T22:47:55Z")
> [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](#): > > Men have every right to have nice hair too! It’s not wasted on me, it’s shameful that everyone else is not blessed with such luxurious locks. It is _completely_ wasted on you. 😛 > [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](#): > > You should have been saying all of this when she nearly went off the dark end, as I did. And when was that, Aldrith? When I first encountered Aria Jenneth, she was posting her journal entries of visiting other states already… I think she was in the Federation at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Kalaratiri](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kalaratiri/32/477189_2.png) [@Kalaratiri](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kalaratiri)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 10:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128/560 "2018-01-22T22:49:54Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > And when was that, Aldrith? He probably means us. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128.md?page=26) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/utaris-puppies-formerly-off-topic-thread/5128.md?page=28)