# VERY Big waste of time and money and hungry people to **URL:** \ **Category:** Mining & Extraction\ **Tags:** null-sec, modules, community\ **Created:** [January 5, 2023, 7:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/very-big-waste-of-time-and-money-and-hungry-people-to/390656 "2023-01-05T19:33:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![TiberianSun371AlexW](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tiberiansun371alexw/32/510819_2.png) [@TiberianSun371AlexW](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/TiberianSun371AlexW)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2023, 7:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/very-big-waste-of-time-and-money-and-hungry-people-to/390656/41 "2023-01-10T19:21:30Z")
> [@ULYSSE\_NADOR](#): > > furious at anom’s waste Because that ore is something you don’t get and _the corp doesn’t get either_. It just goes poof. I sympathize if you were using the A crystals since they are comparable to the pre-nerf t2s. Essentially, they are “default cystals” If you actually bought the B crystals, you deliberatly chose to be wasteful and rather than the corp being mean out of necessity, you kind of brought that verbal lashing on yuorself. ---
**Author:** ![ULYSSE\_NADOR](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ulysse_nador/32/291953_2.png) [@ULYSSE\_NADOR](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/ULYSSE_NADOR)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2023, 8:56am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/very-big-waste-of-time-and-money-and-hungry-people-to/390656/42 "2023-01-11T08:56:06Z")
I mean : Please CCCP can you do a update for that ? * * * Half life 2 \< Like the guy said : Freeman you have a job to do. A good guy in a very ( very ) dangerous place, can make lot of money. wake up freeman, wake up and go in fleet ! \> ---
**Author:** ![Renard\_Paaltomo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/renard_paaltomo/32/253165_2.png) [@Renard\_Paaltomo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Renard_Paaltomo)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2023, 6:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/very-big-waste-of-time-and-money-and-hungry-people-to/390656/43 "2023-01-11T18:19:33Z")
It was an incredibly bad change on something that didn’t need to be changed. I can’t understand why anyone would say this can’t be walked back. That’s ridiculous. I liken this whole thing to if players who just did mining got together, and decided on changing the mechanics of gate camping with CCP’s blessing, while ignoring all input from gate-campers. ---
**Author:** ![Syzygium](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/syzygium/32/516281_2.png) [@Syzygium](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Syzygium)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2023, 6:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/very-big-waste-of-time-and-money-and-hungry-people-to/390656/44 "2023-01-11T18:36:51Z")
> [@Renard\_Paaltomo](#): > > I can’t understand why anyone would say this can’t be walked back. CCP doesn’t WANT it to be walked back, because they think it is a better game design than it was before. And I can mostly follow their thoughts: Before it was simply the aim for the maximum yield and basically nothing else played any role. Now you have to decide: the faster you mine (ore per second), the less total amount you will get (total ore in the roids minus waste). And in return, they doubled the total amount of ore available in space. There is really little to complain about? ---
**Author:** ![Azazod](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/azazod/32/336190_2.png) [@Azazod](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Azazod)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2023, 8:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/very-big-waste-of-time-and-money-and-hungry-people-to/390656/45 "2023-01-11T20:20:18Z")
If you don’t like their rules, leave the group. ---
**Author:** ![Gerard\_Amatin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gerard_amatin/32/481361_2.png) [@Gerard\_Amatin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gerard_Amatin)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2023, 9:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/very-big-waste-of-time-and-money-and-hungry-people-to/390656/46 "2023-01-11T21:20:58Z")
> [@Syzygium](#): > > There is really little to complain about? I agree with you (and CCP) that residue was a good change for the game. I’ll still complain about the fact that T2 mining equipment has no low waste option equal to T1 waste, which makes T2 inferior to T1 in certain situations. There is no other part of the game where T2, which requires many extra skills, is inferior to T1 in anything but price and availability. ---
**Author:** ![TiberianSun371AlexW](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tiberiansun371alexw/32/510819_2.png) [@TiberianSun371AlexW](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/TiberianSun371AlexW)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2023, 2:29am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/very-big-waste-of-time-and-money-and-hungry-people-to/390656/47 "2023-01-12T02:29:53Z")
> [@Gerard\_Amatin](#): > > The current situation feels as if someone trained into T2 hybrid guns, has trouble hitting small fast targets no matter what T2 guns and ammo setup they use, and when they ask about it they get told that T1 guns always have better tracking than T2, even better tracking than the ‘best tracking’ T2 ammo and that all their training time for T2 guns was useless to fight small fast targets, because everyone uses T1 guns to hit them. > > It’s not encouraging people to train T2. > > Yes, I understand that CCP wants a tradeoff between yield and waste, but that tradeoff is still there for all the different T2 crystals. All they need to do to fix this issue is to make the lowest waste crystals (which is type A I) have equal waste as T1. That’s a perfect analogy. However I don’t think they should add waste to t1 modules, just make AII crystals… not waste? ---
**Author:** ![stefnia\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/stefnia_freir/32/390048_2.png) [@stefnia\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/stefnia_Freir)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2023, 2:38am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/very-big-waste-of-time-and-money-and-hungry-people-to/390656/48 "2023-01-12T02:38:46Z")
Nay you’re wrong, they should double the waste on all crystals. Or triple it, that would definitely be better. Just to watch the spectacle you will show. ---
**Author:** ![Syzygium](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/syzygium/32/516281_2.png) [@Syzygium](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Syzygium)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2023, 6:11am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/very-big-waste-of-time-and-money-and-hungry-people-to/390656/49 "2023-01-12T06:11:01Z")
> [@Gerard\_Amatin](#): > > I’ll still complain about the fact that T2 mining equipment has no low waste option equal to T1 waste, which makes T2 inferior to T1 in certain situations. In which situations you get worse results with T2 than with T1? You will always get more yield with T2 in the same time. CCP isn’t responsible for the alliances rules on mining, thats an artificial limitation the players impose on themselves. Or do I miss something? And your weapon analogy is absolutely true, most experienced players will carry some T1 ammo with them in case they have problems to track with T2 ammo, so even in combat T2 is not always the best solution for _every_ situation. ---
**Author:** ![Gerard\_Amatin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gerard_amatin/32/481361_2.png) [@Gerard\_Amatin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gerard_Amatin)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2023, 7:04am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/very-big-waste-of-time-and-money-and-hungry-people-to/390656/50 "2023-01-12T07:04:49Z")
> [@Syzygium](#): > > And your weapon analogy is absolutely true, most experienced players will carry some T1 ammo with them in case they have problems to track with T2 ammo, so even in combat T2 is not always the best solution for _every_ situation. In this case ammo is only used with T2 ‘weapons’. While T1 ammo wastes less than T2 ammo, T1 ammo still wastes more than T1 modules, so you need to swap _modules_ to T1 modules, which don’t use ammo at all. T1 ammo in T2 guns still makes use of all the skills you trained to improve your T2 guns, but with T1 miners all your T2 mining skills (and there’s many!) are rendered irrelevant while mining. > [@Syzygium](#): > > In which situations you get worse results with T2 than with T1? In the situation that you care about waste; where the available ore is valuable and limited in volume. ---
**Author:** ![Syzygium](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/syzygium/32/516281_2.png) [@Syzygium](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Syzygium)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2023, 8:38am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/very-big-waste-of-time-and-money-and-hungry-people-to/390656/51 "2023-01-12T08:38:48Z")
Ahh. I think I understand what you mean now. So you suggest to take away the base waste-modifier from the modules and move them to the crystals instead? So, lets say (just examples for comparison, no ingame values): a T1 Strip Miner has a yield of 100% a T2 Modulated Strip Miner without a crystal has a yield of 120% (to make its base value better than T1, reflecting the higher skill and fitting requirements?) Then if you add crystals you can boost your yield at the expense of accepting waste? a T2 Modulated Strip Miner with A I crystal has a yield of 140 but adds 20 waste a T2 Modulated Strip Miner with A II crystal has a yield of 160 but adds 30 waste a T2 Modulated Strip Miner with B I crystal has a yield of 180 but adds 50 waste a T2 Modulated Strip Miner with B II crystal has a yield of 200 but adds 70 waste Did I get you right? ---
**Author:** ![Gerard\_Amatin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gerard_amatin/32/481361_2.png) [@Gerard\_Amatin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gerard_Amatin)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2023, 3:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/very-big-waste-of-time-and-money-and-hungry-people-to/390656/52 "2023-01-12T15:34:34Z")
Yes, that’s what I mean. There should be a T2 option that makes use of T2 skills that is a (small) improvement compared to T1, with equal waste to T1. For higher yield crystal options it’s fine to add more waste, as long as there is a low/zero waste option for T2 miners too. ---
**Author:** ![TiberianSun371AlexW](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tiberiansun371alexw/32/510819_2.png) [@TiberianSun371AlexW](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/TiberianSun371AlexW)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2023, 7:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/very-big-waste-of-time-and-money-and-hungry-people-to/390656/53 "2023-01-12T19:35:42Z")
> [@Syzygium](#): > > Then if you add crystals you can boost your yield at the expense of accepting waste? > a T2 Modulated Strip Miner with A I crystal has a yield of 140 but adds 20 waste > a T2 Modulated Strip Miner with A II crystal has a yield of 160 but adds 30 waste Why not have the waste go to 0 with perfect skills with A crystals? One ISD (sadly I can’t find the quote) mentioned A would not just replace the old crystals, but replicate their functionality. ---
**Author:** ![stefnia\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/stefnia_freir/32/390048_2.png) [@stefnia\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/stefnia_Freir)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2023, 9:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/very-big-waste-of-time-and-money-and-hungry-people-to/390656/54 "2023-01-12T21:55:04Z")
because CCP added waste AND doubled the minerals. In effect increasing the yield. ---
**Author:** ![Xeux](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xeux/32/428022_2.png) [@Xeux](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xeux)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2023, 11:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/very-big-waste-of-time-and-money-and-hungry-people-to/390656/55 "2023-01-12T23:36:15Z")
They also doubled the tears at the same time. ---
**Author:** ![Hink\_Yaken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/hink_yaken/32/247042_2.png) [@Hink\_Yaken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Hink_Yaken)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2023, 12:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/very-big-waste-of-time-and-money-and-hungry-people-to/390656/56 "2023-01-13T12:52:55Z")
Which is by far the best part of the patch. ---
**Author:** ![Buggs\_LeRoach](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/buggs_leroach/32/376676_2.png) [@Buggs\_LeRoach](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Buggs_LeRoach)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2023, 3:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/very-big-waste-of-time-and-money-and-hungry-people-to/390656/57 "2023-01-13T15:34:52Z")
> [@Gerard\_Amatin](#): > > There is no other part of the game where T2, which requires many extra skills, is inferior to T1 in anything but price and availability. except fitting , cap use , range , tracking , exp. velocity … you not trolling ? ---
**Author:** ![Gerard\_Amatin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gerard_amatin/32/481361_2.png) [@Gerard\_Amatin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gerard_Amatin)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2023, 4:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/very-big-waste-of-time-and-money-and-hungry-people-to/390656/58 "2023-01-13T16:56:29Z")
> [@Buggs\_LeRoach](#): > > except fitting , cap use , range , tracking , exp. velocity … you not trolling ? I was talking about the performance of the modules. But yea, you’re right. T2 do demand more from a player’s fitting and capacitor skills. Tracking and explosion velocity are nice examples of what I’m talking about: T2 ammo has tradeoffs and choices. T2 ammo can be better in some parts (more damage), but worse in other parts (tracking, or explosion radius) than other types of ammo. Generally T2 is very specialised, so while can pick one type of ammo for high tracking, the other for high range, and T1 is somewhere in between. For example take Torpedos. T1 ammo: medium damage, medium range, medium explosion radius T2 rage: high damage, lower range, big explosion radius T2 javelin: low damage, high range, medium explosion radius As you can see, T1 is nicely in between and no matter the stat you care about, there’s a T2 option that’s better, although T1 can still be useful as a cheap mix. That is a good balance. It allows players to swap downsides and upsides on the fly by switching ammo, and while T1 is a more balanced option, there’s always a T2 option that’s _better_ depending on the factor you care about. This is not the case for mining crystals. There is no T1 ammo, there’s just T1 mining equipment, and it’s more efficient (less waste) than any T2 option. T1 mining isn’t in between high yield (type B) and high efficiency (type A) crystals, instead, type A crystals are in between T1 and type B. This means that if a person wishes to specialise in efficient low waste mining, there is no optimal T2 option. This means players cannot make use of their T2 skills at all if they want to efficiently mine, but have to use T1 equipment. This isn’t the case for T2 torpedo launchers: T2 launchers, no matter the choice of ammo, are always going to deal more damage than T1 because of a higher rate of fire and because they can make use of the specialization skills. For mining lasers, the game discourages players to train or use T2 in those situations. And that’s bad design, in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Randy\_Rachel\_Gallavant](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/randy_rachel_gallavant/32/375354_2.png) [@Randy\_Rachel\_Gallavant](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Randy_Rachel_Gallavant)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2023, 3:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/very-big-waste-of-time-and-money-and-hungry-people-to/390656/59 "2023-01-16T15:39:45Z")
The low waste option with improved yield is the ORE Strip Miner. Faction is often better than T2, and this is one of those cases. Yes, it is expensive because you don’t get to have your pie and eat it too without paying extra. You’re already mining a R32/R64 moon in friendly space under a cap umbrella with Rorqual boosts, and now you’re asking for CCP to buff your playstyle even more by reducing the isk you put on field. If you want to use your T2 skills then go mine Bistot anoms, Gneiss in a wormhole, or Bezdnacine in Pochven. T2 doesn’t need to be the best answer for every single situation. ---
**Author:** ![Renard\_Paaltomo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/renard_paaltomo/32/253165_2.png) [@Renard\_Paaltomo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Renard_Paaltomo)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2023, 6:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/very-big-waste-of-time-and-money-and-hungry-people-to/390656/60 "2023-01-17T18:14:02Z")
Nice trolling type comment. Let me clarify something. 1. Unlike me, the majority of you who support this change I believe don’t do much mining. 2. I essentially left this game after the change in 2021. 3. If anyone from CCP is wondering, that means around $1,000 USD didn’t go into your coffers. 4. I’ve come back briefly over the holidays, but will return to tabling this game until the next holiday season. Maybe meaningful positive changes will happen by then. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/very-big-waste-of-time-and-money-and-hungry-people-to/390656.md?page=2) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/very-big-waste-of-time-and-money-and-hungry-people-to/390656.md?page=4)