# War decs should cost 10m additional isk for each outgoing war **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [March 14, 2020, 1:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763 "2020-03-14T13:29:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jonah_gravenstein/32/386819_2.png) [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jonah_Gravenstein)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 11:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763/326 "2020-03-14T23:49:52Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > You literally don’t I do, otherwise known as argumentum ad numerum, using the popularity of a premise as evidence for truthfulness; not that you can use this particular fallacy in the way that you’re using it. I have made no premise or proposition with which I would need to do this, I simply used a word, in a context, that is in line with the way that English is used by people who speak English. > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > At no point you even try to address my point What point? All you’ve done is misunderstand the use of the word defend and the context it was used in. > So you are the one trying to cover his mistakes with fallacies. Pot meet kettle. ---
**Author:** ![QuakeGod](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/quakegod/32/480339_2.png) [@QuakeGod](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/QuakeGod)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 11:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763/327 "2020-03-14T23:50:27Z")
Anderson, just give up. Absolutely no one agrees with you. You are out there in left field by yourself… ---
**Author:** ![Scipio\_Artelius](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scipio_artelius/32/408264_2.png) [@Scipio\_Artelius](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scipio_Artelius)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 11:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763/328 "2020-03-14T23:51:09Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > You claiming that since you understand him, then he is right, is an appeal to popularity. We are not saying he is right, just that we understand what he was referring to. Whether he is right is a separate thing, based on our own biases either way, but that doesn’t change our understanding of his use in context. > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > You understanding him does not invalidate my point. In this case, where you claim that is no other context in which it can be used, it does. Like or not, the evidence is there and you are wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 11:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763/329 "2020-03-14T23:51:39Z")
That’s challenge mode to her. Its actually fun to spar as long as you don’t let any emotion except enjoyment drive your dancing fingers. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 11:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763/330 "2020-03-14T23:53:38Z")
> [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](#): > > I simply used a word, in a context, that is in line with the way that English is used by people who speak English. And my point was that this usage made no sense in that context, to which you answered “but people understand me” as if this was an argument about the validity of your usage. I literally told you that, just because it makes sense in the general case, does not mean it is correct in the specific context. > [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](#): > > What point? All you’ve done is misunderstand the use of the word defend and the context it was used in. The point where I explain why this usage is incorrect. > [@Scipio\_Artelius](#): > > Whether he is right is a separate thing It’s not, he literally claimed that his usage was proven correct by the fact that you understood him. Yet you all avoided my point to engage in a appeal to popularity. > [@Scipio\_Artelius](#): > > Like or not, the evidence is there and you are wrong. Literally none. ---
**Author:** ![Tintallei\_Sharan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tintallei_sharan/32/373000_2.png) [@Tintallei\_Sharan](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tintallei_Sharan)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 11:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763/331 "2020-03-14T23:54:00Z")
What the ■■■■ was I doing trying to speak about the OP post, I should have checked what was going on in the last posts here! ---
**Author:** ![QuakeGod](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/quakegod/32/480339_2.png) [@QuakeGod](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/QuakeGod)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 11:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763/332 "2020-03-14T23:54:22Z")
It’s Anderson. EVERY thread end up this way… ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 11:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763/333 "2020-03-14T23:54:37Z")
I’m truly sorry that you walked in here to see Anderson’s pants on the floor and me leaning in to see her massive epeen right up close. ---
**Author:** ![Scipio\_Artelius](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scipio_artelius/32/408264_2.png) [@Scipio\_Artelius](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scipio_Artelius)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 11:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763/334 "2020-03-14T23:55:05Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > Literally none. That I understood his meaning in the context he used it is literal proof that there is some evidence. That also shows that “literally none” is incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 11:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763/335 "2020-03-14T23:57:32Z")
> [@Scipio\_Artelius](#): > > That I understood his meaning in the context he used it is literal proof that there is some evidence. It’s not a proof that his usage is correct in the context. I did not claim that you did not understand him. I claimed that the way he used the term “defend” was incorrect in the context. So your “evidence” that you understand him is irrelevant, unless it made his usage correct, that is that my point about the correction was wrong, therefore your “evidence” is just an appeal to popularity. ---
**Author:** ![R-0-B-0-C-O-P](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/r-0-b-0-c-o-p/32/474175_2.png) [@R-0-B-0-C-O-P](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/R-0-B-0-C-O-P)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 11:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763/336 "2020-03-14T23:57:45Z")
Howdy. Member of the evil P I R A T here (was in VMG prior). Let’s get some facts straight here: - I started doing Wardecs solo and in small groups 5-10 people back in 2013-2014. Back then there were plenty of smaller groups that were manageable for defenders to take on. Sure there’s always been groups that interdicted at trade hubs and pipes but there was actually hunting and stalking back then. Today that is virtually non-existent. - The changes requiring a structure to declare war obviously did NOT have the intended outcome that the CSM and CCP stated. It was said that NOW there was an objective to FIGHT over. That there was a place to hit the evil highsec Wardec guys back instead of them just tucking tail and running. Since the war HQ changes we’ve seen a very small handful of actual fights happen. I think our war HQ was pooped on maybe once? The Nullsec dominated CSM was totally onboard with being able to have a mechanic to throw their N+1 fleets at in the event they actually wanted to bother with coming to Highsec. - The pre existing war dec groups merged not because of war costs but because we knew that we were going to be more vulnerable to the N+1 fleets that would be thrown at us in an attempt to end the war HQ. I personally was very excited at the thought of being able to actually have something to brawl and slug it out over against my fellow mercenaries, but I totally understand grouping up to help fend off the Nullsec menace. - I would wager that most of the structures we take down belong to some guy whose main lives in Nullsec or some idiot that’s trying to setup a market hub where we don’t want him to. Most new player groups have adopted to the meta of having your structure in an Alt corp and abusing the ACL settings. - We get asked to blow structures up on behalf of smaller industrial groups frequently. The small-time industrialist with a feud against his neighbor is asking us to fight on his behalf. - I am 100% positive that Highsec wars have contributed to players quitting. Hell I know I myself have made plenty quit this terrible game. The question I want to pose is how many other horrible variables were factors in that as well? How many people have quit the game due to terrible CEOs not leading or teaching new players? How many people have quit the game after a terrible NPE? How many people have quit the game after naively losing a ship in Lowsec? (Last bit of data I looked at showed that more new players lost ships in Lowsec than to Highsec wars) The CSM asked CCP to present data surrounding wardecs but we were never really privy to the information and data given to the CSM? How do we know that this data takes into consideration the points listed above and many others not listed? The point I’m trying to make that despite CCP having a whole season focused around improving Highsec war and making the NPE better, things haven’t really improved. Wars are in a worse position than before. - Their changes and the CSMs lobbying made all the Mercs band together under one alliance. - Upwell structures are NOT a good content generator. - People continue to bitch and moan about wars despite being given the opportunity for immunity AND and method to target a war HQ to end those wars and be immune for 2 weeks. It’s almost as if CCP has a habit of making changes to areas of the game without consulting the players that participate in that content first. Instead they’d prefer to glean on biased information from a Null controlled CSM. So again I will ask like the many others here have… What will increasing the cost of wars (again) do you benefit this activity? ---
**Author:** ![QuakeGod](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/quakegod/32/480339_2.png) [@QuakeGod](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/QuakeGod)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 11:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763/337 "2020-03-14T23:59:37Z")
![Robocop](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/b/8/b882a207dee1ad118bbae9143d9465d26fb536e0.gif) ---
**Author:** ![Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jonah_gravenstein/32/386819_2.png) [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jonah_Gravenstein)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2020, 12:01am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763/338 "2020-03-15T00:01:36Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > And my point was that this usage made no sense in that context, It made perfect sense in that context, defending something includes taking measures to lower the chances of something unfortunate happening to it. > to which you answered “but people understand me” as if this was an argument about the validity of your usage. The fact the people understood what I posted and the context in which it was posted somewhat negates your claim that my post made no sense in the context it was posted, because it obviously did make sense to people that are not you. > It’s not, he literally claimed that his usage was proven correct by the fact that you understood him. No I did not, I merely pointed out that people with far more familiarity with English than yourself understood the content and context of what I posted, which incidentally means that it made sense; and that the word defend can be used in different contexts to mean different things. ---
**Author:** ![Scipio\_Artelius](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scipio_artelius/32/408264_2.png) [@Scipio\_Artelius](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scipio_Artelius)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2020, 12:02am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763/339 "2020-03-15T00:02:26Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > It’s not a proof that his usage is correct in the context. You can continue to be incorrect all day and that won’t change. English is a mash of other languages and very bastardised. There are a lot of subtleties in it that don’t require an appeal to popularity for it’s use to be correct. It’s just the language. His use in context was correct. Nothing you can do to change that. The only thing you could do is try to learn a little, but that doesn’t seem likely so far. ---
**Author:** ![Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jonah_gravenstein/32/386819_2.png) [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jonah_Gravenstein)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2020, 12:03am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763/340 "2020-03-15T00:03:41Z")
> [@Scipio\_Artelius](#): > > English is a mash of other language and very bastardised. That’s because it follows other languages into dark alleys, beats them over the head and rifles their dictionary for spare vocabulary. It ganks other langauges. ---
**Author:** ![Namtis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/namtis/32/191261_2.png) [@Namtis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Namtis)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2020, 12:06am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763/341 "2020-03-15T00:06:00Z")
> [@Tintallei\_Sharan](#): > > > [@Namtis](#): > > > > With such a large amount of members, there is surely no problem in them paying higher fees for declaring war? > > Then why do you make this suggestion in the first place? > > You know very well that this won’t stop them, and do nothing besides making them spend a bit more of their ISK. > > All in all you just want to annoy a group of players despite being very much aware that this won’t actually change anything noticeable for the game. They’ll still pay the fee when they feel it’s worth it. They won’t feel it’s worth paying 2 bill to keep war deccing random new player corps or other low value targets. ---
**Author:** ![Namtis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/namtis/32/191261_2.png) [@Namtis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Namtis)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2020, 12:10am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763/342 "2020-03-15T00:10:46Z")
> [@R-0-B-0-C-O-P](#): > > Howdy. Member of the evil P I R A T here (was in VMG prior). Let’s get some facts straight here: > > - I started doing Wardecs solo and in small groups 5-10 people back in 2013-2014. Back then there were plenty of smaller groups that were manageable for defenders to take on. Sure there’s always been groups that interdicted at trade hubs and pipes but there was actually hunting and stalking back then. Today that is virtually non-existent. > > - The changes requiring a structure to declare war obviously did NOT have the intended outcome that the CSM and CCP stated. It was said that NOW there was an objective to FIGHT over. That there was a place to hit the evil highsec Wardec guys back instead of them just tucking tail and running. > > Since the war HQ changes we’ve seen a very small handful of actual fights happen. I think our war HQ was pooped on maybe once? The Nullsec dominated CSM was totally onboard with being able to have a mechanic to throw their N+1 fleets at in the event they actually wanted to bother with coming to Highsec. > > - The pre existing war dec groups merged not because of war costs but because we knew that we were going to be more vulnerable to the N+1 fleets that would be thrown at us in an attempt to end the war HQ. I personally was very excited at the thought of being able to actually have something to brawl and slug it out over against my fellow mercenaries, but I totally understand grouping up to help fend off the Nullsec menace. > > - I would wager that most of the structures we take down belong to some guy whose main lives in Nullsec or some idiot that’s trying to setup a market hub where we don’t want him to. Most new player groups have adopted to the meta of having your structure in an Alt corp and abusing the ACL settings. > > - We get asked to blow structures up on behalf of smaller industrial groups frequently. The small-time industrialist with a feud against his neighbor is asking us to fight on his behalf. > > - I am 100% positive that Highsec wars have contributed to players quitting. Hell I know I myself have made plenty quit this terrible game. The question I want to pose is how many other horrible variables were factors in that as well? > > How many people have quit the game due to terrible CEOs not leading or teaching new players? > > How many people have quit the game after a terrible NPE? > > How many people have quit the game after naively losing a ship in Lowsec? (Last bit of data I looked at showed that more new players lost ships in Lowsec than to Highsec wars) > > The CSM asked CCP to present data surrounding wardecs but we were never really privy to the information and data given to the CSM? How do we know that this data takes into consideration the points listed above and many others not listed? > > The point I’m trying to make that despite CCP having a whole season focused around improving Highsec war and making the NPE better, things haven’t really improved. Wars are in a worse position than before. > > - Their changes and the CSMs lobbying made all the Mercs band together under one alliance. > - Upwell structures are NOT a good content generator. > - People continue to ■■■■■ and moan about wars despite being given the opportunity for immunity AND and method to target a war HQ to end those wars and be immune for 2 weeks. > > It’s almost as if CCP has a habit of making changes to areas of the game without consulting the players that participate in that content first. Instead they’d prefer to glean on biased information from a Null controlled CSM. > > So again I will ask like the many others here have… What will increasing the cost of wars (again) do you benefit this activity? Even pirat member admits the current war system is bad. Worse than before even. All mercs banding together is not a good situation. Increase cost of wars at least reduces the number of wars against low value targets. It is madness to spend 2 bill to declare war for a week against some noob corp who will yield no good kills. Dramatically increase the costs of war to scale with the number of players in a corp/alliance. This seems like the most simple and effective method to to cut back on mercs banding together like that. If they all band together, the cost of maintaining 100 wars will be enormous. The base cost to declare war stays the same, 100m. Anything above 10 in a corp and the price increases by X isk per player. Calculated by the average number of players online in a corp during past 30 days. A 500 man corp should pay a lot of isk to issue a war dec. Another option In case they try to circumvent the fee structure, by making a new corp every week to issue the wars with just one player in the corp for the cheapest war fees and then having everyone join once the wars are issued: The system will check daily the number of players in the corp. If it is higher than the amount paid for, issue news war bills to account for the increased costs of active wars, that needs to be paid within 24 hours or all wars are cancelled. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2020, 12:13am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763/343 "2020-03-15T00:13:25Z")
> [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](#): > > defending something includes taking measures to lower the chances of something unfortunate happening to it. Except that, as was my point, this definition does not apply to structure, for which you can do … nothing about if people want to destroy it. So when I tell you to apply “don’t anchor what you can’t defend” to your ships, it implies to use the same meaning for your ship that you use for the structure. > [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](#): > > The fact the people understood what I posted and the context in which it was posted somewhat negates your claim that my post made no sense It does not, that’s an appeal to popularity. Hence why I told you. > [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](#): > > that my post made no sense in the context it was posted, because it obviously did make sense to people that are not you. Unrelated. It’s not about them understanding you, it’s about your usage being in contradiction with the context. Just because they understand your usage, does not mean that it is correct in the context you use it. like just because I understand “true is false”, does not mean that this affirmation makes sense. > [@Scipio\_Artelius](#): > > You can continue to be incorrect all day and that won’t change. And you can continue to be incorrect all night. ---
**Author:** ![Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jonah_gravenstein/32/386819_2.png) [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jonah_Gravenstein)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2020, 12:13am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763/344 "2020-03-15T00:13:43Z")
> [@R-0-B-0-C-O-P](#): > > How many people have quit the game due to terrible CEOs not leading or teaching new players? > > How many people have quit the game after a terrible NPE? > > How many people have quit the game after naively losing a ship in Lowsec? I would hazard a guess at far more than quit due to the playstyle that you and your friends follow. ---
**Author:** ![QuakeGod](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/quakegod/32/480339_2.png) [@QuakeGod](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/QuakeGod)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2020, 12:13am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763/345 "2020-03-15T00:13:44Z")
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