# War decs should cost 10m additional isk for each outgoing war **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [March 14, 2020, 1:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763 "2020-03-14T13:29:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 32
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 4:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763/693 "2020-03-16T16:50:04Z")
> [@Mazooki](#): > > Imagine 10 times the amount of player targets and 10 times the money making options in the game. How does removing PvP add more player targets? > 10 times more buddies for mining, pvp, trading, mission running etc. \*\*\*\* that nonsense. Why the hell would I want 10 times more people competing with me and flooding the markets with excess production? I want _fewer_ people mining, mission running, etc, so I can make more money doing those things. ---
**Author:** ![QuakeGod](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/quakegod/32/480339_2.png) [@QuakeGod](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/QuakeGod)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 4:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763/694 "2020-03-16T16:52:11Z")
If small player structures are so limited in their capabilities, then why bother spending the billions of ISK to own and fuel one? Just use an NPC station for those same functions for free… ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 4:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763/695 "2020-03-16T16:55:30Z")
Vanity ---
**Author:** ![Algathas](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/algathas/32/397229_2.png) [@Algathas](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Algathas)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 4:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763/696 "2020-03-16T16:57:47Z")
Even if a supposed structure had absolutely no services or “benefits” they still should be eligible to be destroyed. Why? Because they have the benefit of docking and storing items. So, your “small corp” now can mine with impunity and dock up whenever a red enters system and be invincible in your “small structure”. So a competing corp can never force you out because your structure is invincible and you have perfect intel. The exception of course is NPC stations. But you want to set up in a system without a NPC station (“Claim it”) and then be immune to war. All player structures should be targets for PVP period. End of story. ---
**Author:** ![Black\_Pedro](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/black_pedro/32/257285_2.png) [@Black\_Pedro](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Black_Pedro)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 4:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763/697 "2020-03-16T16:58:09Z")
> [@Mazooki](#): > > Its up to CCP if they want to be another 15 years a niche game with the same players numbers, or if they follow WoW and at least 10 fold the player numbers. > > Those defending highsec and wardec gankers are shooting themself in the foot. > Imagine 10 times the amount of player targets and 10 times the money making options in the game. > > 10 times more buddies for mining, pvp, trading, mission running etc. > > Lets see if CCP wants to be the same in 15 years as in the last 15 years or if they want to grow. > If they dont evolve, who knows if the game still exists in 10 or 20 years. Carebear apologists have promised that Eve would be flooded with new players if the game was just made safer and easier for the last 17 years, despite no evidence that this works. In fact, the same promises and predictions were made for these latest war changes which gutted the mechanic and made new players completely immune from it and guess what? Again, no flood of new players to the game. I don’t know why people keep trying to claim there are massive amounts of players wanting to play a 17-year old space game devoid of any conflict. It’s easy to claim they are there to support your personal preference, but there is no evidence they exist. There are however, plenty of people who have shown an interest in playing a competitive, virtual war/economy simulator game. Maybe if CCP actually focused on making that core gameplay better, instead of pandering to the safe bears yet again, activity might increase? Seems worth a shot to me. ---
**Author:** ![Namtis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/namtis/32/191261_2.png) [@Namtis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Namtis)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 5:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763/699 "2020-03-16T17:00:56Z")
> [@Merin\_Ryskin](#): > > > [@Namtis](#): > > > > With massively broken war dec system resulting in your group having a 97% ratio of kills to deaths. > > The system was not broken. The issue was that idiot highsec perma-victims ignored the principles of how to succeed in EVE, mindlessly flew into Jita despite being at war, and never bothered to do anything to organize opposition against the aggressors. CCP massively overreacted to something that was not a problem and already had existing solutions that people should have been using. > > > As I said, small structures can’t run markets. Small structures cannot compete with larger structures refine efficiency, so even if they do offer an industrial service, it will only be basic and never the best. > > If small structures are so inefficient and useless then why do you need one? Just don’t deploy one of these useless structures and you won’t be a legal war target. > > The reality of course is that you don’t think they’re useless, you’re just making a dishonest argument in an attempt to get the benefits of structure ownership while retaining immunity to most PvP. The group of players you refer to as ‘perma victims’ to CCP are lost customers, chased out of the game by other customers. Whom, instead of moving onto bigger targets, permanently pick on targets in hisec, where the odds are stacked so vastly in their favour that they easily win the vast majority of encounters without even losing a single ship. Player housing, real estate, in whatever form it takes, is always a popular draw of mmorpgs. In EVE, if a player wishes to try this stuff out, he becomes war eligible. To massively make this issue worse we have large groups of elite veteran pvpers who made it into a playstyle to issue hundreds and thousands of decs (in any 2 month period) on such players in hisec. If these elite pvp groups don’t actually pick on these players, then tell me what is the problem with the change suggested? Since if they don’t attack such players it won’t matter to them if non competitive small structures are no longer war eligible. ---
**Author:** ![QuakeGod](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/quakegod/32/480339_2.png) [@QuakeGod](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/QuakeGod)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 5:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763/700 "2020-03-16T17:02:03Z")
CCP could make high sec 100% pvp-free and safe and carebears would still complain. They would also want low-sec, null-sec, and wormholes changed. Their argument would be that they are being “shut out of content” because they are getting killed while exploring in wormholes, and can’t explore null-sec because of gate camps and bubbles… ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 5:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763/701 "2020-03-16T17:02:56Z")
Its like what whitey did to Jazz ---
**Author:** ![Algathas](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/algathas/32/397229_2.png) [@Algathas](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Algathas)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 5:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763/702 "2020-03-16T17:03:01Z")
> [@Namtis](#): > > non competitive All player structures are competitive by their very nature. ---
**Author:** ![Karak\_Terrel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/karak_terrel/32/373453_2.png) [@Karak\_Terrel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Karak_Terrel)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 5:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763/703 "2020-03-16T17:04:26Z")
> [@Namtis](#): > > The group of players you refer to as ‘perma victims’ to CCP are lost customers, chased out of the game by other customers. Those “perma victims” are crying in this forums for over a decade for changes in their favor. If they would quit because of it we would have probably noticed it by now. ---
**Author:** ![Namtis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/namtis/32/191261_2.png) [@Namtis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Namtis)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 5:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763/704 "2020-03-16T17:05:15Z")
Oh they noticed. ---
**Author:** ![Namtis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/namtis/32/191261_2.png) [@Namtis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Namtis)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 5:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763/705 "2020-03-16T17:10:27Z")
> [@Algathas](#): > > > [@Namtis](#): > > > > non competitive > > All player structures are competitive by their very nature. Some more so than others. The idea is that the smallest structures are the least competitive and if claiming territory or moons it would make them war eligible anyway. A player in his battleship, or any ship, is competitive. Competing with other players much of the time. Does that means he should be war eligible? No, he’s not. You have to draw the line somewhere. The smallest structures are the least competitive. As long as you’re made still war eligible for claiming moons and such, they cannot compete with larger structures so their competitiveness is limited. ---
**Author:** ![R-0-B-0-C-O-P](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/r-0-b-0-c-o-p/32/474175_2.png) [@R-0-B-0-C-O-P](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/R-0-B-0-C-O-P)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 5:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763/706 "2020-03-16T17:10:34Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > And still none of that means that individuals get to “opt in”. The choice to remain with a group that is eligible lies on each player. No one is forcing anyone to join or stay with a group that’s eligible. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Your argument is basically that you don’t think that veteran players pretying on weak easy targets is something that should be discouraged No I don’t think it’s an issue. Trial by fire! > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > defending side have no chance to actually put up a reasonable defense. I see a defeatist here. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > You say that but you’re using a lot of emotive languages yourself, such as when you accuse other players of “crying”. The data provided by CCP has historically shown that wars cause drastic drops in player activity. I’ve not yet seen any data to suggest that has changed. I believe that the data that CCP presented was flawed in that there are a myriad of variables in why a new player would quit this game. Sure wars didn’t help but have we seen a rise in concurrent player count? No. We were very vocal about predicting this change wouldn’t result in an uptick in player count and new players yet the changes went through as is with no following balances passes. ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 5:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763/707 "2020-03-16T17:10:44Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > While I understand that position, it’s not going to help with retention. I fail to see the problem. Why should we care about retaining players who refuse to take responsibility for their own safety and insist on treating EVE as a mindless PvE farming game? Player count is not the only thing that matters. > [@Namtis](#): > > The group of players you refer to as ‘perma victims’ to CCP are lost customers, chased out of the game by other customers. So? EVE is not a game for everyone. If you can’t cope with adversity and loss then why should I care if you quit? > where the odds are stacked so vastly in their favour that they easily win the vast majority of encounters without even losing a single ship. The odds are only stacked in their favor because useless highsec perma-victims refuse to use the tools they already have. The targets of highsec wars could easily use their sheer numbers to fight back effectively, but they refuse to do so because they reject the fact that EVE is a PvP game and quit any time they’re expected to overcome adversity. > Player housing, real estate, in whatever form it takes, is always a popular draw of mmorpgs. That’s nice. EVE is a game where you earn things and real estate is a reward for successful PvP. If you want a free house with no risks then go play WoW. > If these elite pvp groups don’t actually pick on these players, then tell me what is the problem with the change suggested? The problem is that it is yet another case of “just one more nerf to PvP” because highsec perma-victims refuse to use any of the tools they already have. It’s very clear that the only acceptable state is removing all PvP from highsec, and the demand for nerfs will continue until that is achieved. So no. No more nerfs. Use the tools you already have and stop whining. ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 5:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763/709 "2020-03-16T17:12:19Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Unless it’s for combat PvP players, then apparently you believe in as many free lunches as possible. The “free lunches” are fully capable of not being that, we don’t need to nerf PvP again just because they refuse to do so. ---
**Author:** ![QuakeGod](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/quakegod/32/480339_2.png) [@QuakeGod](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/QuakeGod)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 5:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763/710 "2020-03-16T17:13:27Z")
There’s no free lunch for PvP’ers or gankers either. If you PvP in low and null, you risk losing your ship. If you gank in high you WILL lose your ship. ---
**Author:** ![R-0-B-0-C-O-P](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/r-0-b-0-c-o-p/32/474175_2.png) [@R-0-B-0-C-O-P](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/R-0-B-0-C-O-P)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 5:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763/711 "2020-03-16T17:15:09Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Unless it’s for combat PvP players, then apparently you believe in as many free lunches as possible. Hey you’re or anyone else is more than welcome to come steal my lunch. I have it sitting in the open waving in your face as you starve to death. I’ll let you starve while I enjoy my lunch. 🙂 > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Do you actually own any? The vast majority of POCOs in highsec make very little for the owners. I’ve owned POCOs yes. They are a nice thing to own. ---
**Author:** ![QuakeGod](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/quakegod/32/480339_2.png) [@QuakeGod](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/QuakeGod)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 5:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763/712 "2020-03-16T17:15:17Z")
> [@Merin\_Ryskin](#): > > It’s very clear that the only acceptable state is removing all PvP from highsec, and the demand for nerfs will continue until that is achieved. They won’t be content to stop with just that… ---
**Author:** ![Algathas](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/algathas/32/397229_2.png) [@Algathas](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Algathas)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 5:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763/713 "2020-03-16T17:15:28Z")
> [@Namtis](#): > > A player in his battleship, or any ship, is competitive. Competing with other players much of the time. Does that means he should be war eligible? No, he’s not. At least he can be suicide ganked which is a crappy but needed balancing factor. The battleship SHOULD be war eligible but sadly CCP made a mistake and allowed whiners to be even more safe. Structures can not be removed other than through multiple timers, a ton of damage, etc so they can not be suicide ganked. Thus without war there is no balancing factor and no way to remove them. The smallest structures must have some advantage otherwise you would be happy using the available NPC stations. See, your very words about “least competitive” still means they are competitive and thus need a factor to allow removal. If they have any benefit whatsoever over a NPC station (which they unequivocally do) then they need to have mechanics to destroy them. ---
**Author:** ![QuakeGod](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/quakegod/32/480339_2.png) [@QuakeGod](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/QuakeGod)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 5:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763/714 "2020-03-16T17:23:42Z")
Let me give you one small example here why even the smallest of structures should make you eligible to be war dec’d in high sec. Let’s say you want to mine in a certain system in the Khanid region of space, away from well-traveled areas. This region is known to have systems with plenty of belts, but no stations for 3 or 4 jumps away. So, you decide to anchor a small structure so you no longer have to travel to store, refine, or compress ore. You also have a safe haven for your fleet to align and warp to should a ganker fleet enter the system. You are obviously benefitting from such a structure, even though it has no marketplace, cloning bay, or any other such service. Since there are no NPC stations for several jumps, you have in essence “claimed” that system. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763.md?page=31) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763.md?page=33)