# War decs should cost 10m additional isk for each outgoing war **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [March 14, 2020, 1:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763 "2020-03-14T13:29:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 33
**Author:** ![Mazooki](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mazooki/32/189503_2.png) [@Mazooki](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mazooki)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 5:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763/715 "2020-03-16T17:26:03Z")
![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/4/8/483e3cf8646ea082f880525553d78685fc3be791.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![QuakeGod](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/quakegod/32/480339_2.png) [@QuakeGod](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/QuakeGod)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 5:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763/716 "2020-03-16T17:26:20Z")
As it should be. If it weren’t, we wouldn’t still be playing it after 17 years… ---
**Author:** ![Mazooki](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mazooki/32/189503_2.png) [@Mazooki](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mazooki)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 5:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763/717 "2020-03-16T17:47:07Z")
“Many of us who overcame EVE’s learning cliff have become part of the NPE problem” > **[Eroding the Learning Cliff — NevilleSmit.com](http://nevillesmit.com/blog/2015/3/31/eroding-the-learning-cliff)** > > Since its early days, more than a decade ago, EVE Online has cultivated a reputation for being hard to learn and difficult to master, by design. In fact, CCP Games proudly proclaimed this as an advertising tagline, "EVE is hard", in marketing... ---
**Author:** ![QuakeGod](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/quakegod/32/480339_2.png) [@QuakeGod](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/QuakeGod)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 6:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763/720 "2020-03-16T18:20:05Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > CCP need to find a way to encourage wardeccers to take on challenging targets rather than fodder. EVE is a competitive game. The idea is to not let the other guy get big enough to challenge you in the first place… ---
**Author:** ![Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jonah_gravenstein/32/386819_2.png) [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jonah_Gravenstein)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 6:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763/721 "2020-03-16T18:33:02Z")
I haven’t seen Malcanis’ Law posted in this thread yet, so here it is. Malcanis’ law states that “Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of ‘new players’, that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.” This is as true today as it was when Malcanis first posted it. Richer, older players have both the wealth and knowledge to take advantage of any changes that aim to help “new”\* players; including the proposal contained in this thread to make small structures ineligible for war. \*_For varying definitions of new._ ---
**Author:** ![Lugburz](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lugburz/32/486230_2.png) [@Lugburz](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lugburz)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 6:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763/722 "2020-03-16T18:35:01Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > “earth is flat” is an opinion Hey man, the flat earth society has members around the globe! ---
**Author:** ![Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jonah_gravenstein/32/386819_2.png) [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jonah_Gravenstein)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 7:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763/723 "2020-03-16T19:08:18Z")
Nice juxtaposition 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Vals\_Loeder](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vals_loeder/32/192416_2.png) [@Vals\_Loeder](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vals_Loeder)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 7:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763/724 "2020-03-16T19:32:54Z")
> [@Tingz\_Tongz](#): > > imho it should also be secure for new players to toy around with structure stuff in high sec. It should not. You can go to the test server to play with it. ---
**Author:** ![R-0-B-0-C-O-P](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/r-0-b-0-c-o-p/32/474175_2.png) [@R-0-B-0-C-O-P](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/R-0-B-0-C-O-P)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 7:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763/725 "2020-03-16T19:37:18Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Again that argument is meaningless because you could say that about any situation. It’s the “I’m not hitting you, I’m jsut swinging my arms. It’s your choice to be standing there.” argument. Sorry. This is Eve Online. It’s a harsh world where the reality is that it’s your responsibility to take your success, defeats, gains, and losses and own them. The advantage new players have is theres 17 years of other players mistakes, successes, and other experiences in between to learn from. Eve Online is a well documented game in this way, so it’s hard to believe that a new player joins and isn’t aware he’s going to be faced with challenging tasks and that it’s up to him to overcome them. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > And therein lies the fundamental difference of opinion we hold which I think will not be solved in any discussion. The stats suggest that “trial by fire” results in a signficantly reduced retention rate, but you feel your feelings about it are more important than that fact. And that’s fine, you’re free to hold whatever opinion you want. I think it produces a better quality player. I care about that more. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Not at all. I wouldn’t stand a chance against a professional darts player in a game for darts, that’s not defeatism, it’s just reality. Why would industrial players, mission runners and rookies stand a reasonable chance against players who specialise in war mechanics? In most cases they won’t. - Is combat pvp the only solution? - I would say you can hire mercs but changes that all of you guys supported pushed them to stop competing and join together (which I predicted would happen). Looks like you screwed yourself here, sorry. - Find others in similar situations and find a way to try and overcome. - Cry to CCP that just one more need will do it. I have a bright and shining example of industrial players not being whiney, accepting their situation, and getting results: We were recently contracted by a group of industrialists to destroy the War HQ of a single guy multiboxing a pretty serious combat fleet. This guy has allegedly been terrorizing a specific area / constellation and trying to push industrialists out so that he alone can take advantage of the areas resources. The group of industrialists together collected enough money to hire us, and we’ve already taken the shield timer of his war HQ. He even put up a fight over his HQ shield timer which was very impressive if I’m honest. Eve Online was made for gamers like this. Players that can create content and not just be entitled sponges. Sure sometimes you’re the content of others, but it never has to stay that way. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > In what way? Their data showed that players in corps who were the targets of war decs immediately dropped in activity and that activity didn’t recover once the war finished. Are you sure it’s not just you not wanting to believe it and thus projecting your own feelings onto it rather than the validity of that data? We weren’t given any actual data about that. It came from the CSM. I can’t verify what variables were taken into consideration as well as filtered out. So I choose to rightly so, remain skeptical that CCP did this justice. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Sure, but you lot tend to be very vocal about how you feel any change that you on;t like is not going to work and that CCP should instead make your gamplay I think it’s because we have experience in seeing exactly what happens when some of these stupid ideas go through. Do you not think that I nor my associates have an intimate knowledge of how wars work and what the outcomes will be if you change X, Y, and Z? Sure we’re trying to preserve our gameplay because it’s how we like to play the game within the constraints that CCP gives us. No harm in pointing out bad ideas lol. > [@Vals\_Loeder](#): > > It should not. You can go to the test server to play with it. You make a very good point here. +1 ---
**Author:** ![QuakeGod](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/quakegod/32/480339_2.png) [@QuakeGod](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/QuakeGod)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 7:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763/726 "2020-03-16T19:46:27Z")
The test server is an excellent resource. Take me, for example. I know what type of player I am. I know my skills and limitations. Yes, I can pilot carriers and dreads, but I also know that I would get my rear end handed to me in 5 minutes in low and null. I’m just not a combat player. On the test server I can try out and enjoy those things in relative safety. It comes in handy for many other things as well. If you’ve never deployed a citadel before, you can use the test server to see what all is involved in doing that. You can also do things that you would normally never attempt to do on the live server for fear of ruining your sec status or standings. How hard are the faction police to kill? What happens when I use a certain module in high sec? Can a certain module even be used in high sec? Things like that. ---
**Author:** ![QuakeGod](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/quakegod/32/480339_2.png) [@QuakeGod](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/QuakeGod)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 7:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763/728 "2020-03-16T19:56:40Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > So then you think zero new players is a good idea? All new players should be immediately stomped into the ground and not allowed to grow? From day one, every new player that has ever played EVE has been stomped into the ground at some point, yet here we still are 17 years later. Those that adapt keep playing. Those that don’t go elsewhere… ---
**Author:** ![QuakeGod](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/quakegod/32/480339_2.png) [@QuakeGod](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/QuakeGod)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 8:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763/729 "2020-03-16T20:03:03Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > When most veteran players started the game was far simpler and there were far fewer player created obstacles to overcome. That is not even close to being true. Ganking used to be MUCH more prevalent. There was no crime watch. No combat and log off timers. Nothing to keep you from being bumped for eternity until you gave up and logged out. No new player agents that help you with millions of ISK and multiple ships. No training queue. We had to log in every single day and start skills or else they wouldn’t train. New players have it a hundred times easier than vets ever did… ---
**Author:** ![QuakeGod](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/quakegod/32/480339_2.png) [@QuakeGod](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/QuakeGod)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 8:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763/731 "2020-03-16T20:04:33Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > In reality, if CCP wants EVE to survive it has to improve the game for new players They already have. Many, many times… ---
**Author:** ![R-0-B-0-C-O-P](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/r-0-b-0-c-o-p/32/474175_2.png) [@R-0-B-0-C-O-P](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/R-0-B-0-C-O-P)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 8:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763/732 "2020-03-16T20:11:32Z")
> [@QuakeGod](#): > > New players have it a hundred times easier than vets ever did… You’re right! I started in 2012. I’ve heard stories If a time when there was no war to 0…I’d say that example alone shows you the difference between then and now. I wonder if warping you 0 was a change that people complained about. Hm. ---
**Author:** ![Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jonah_gravenstein/32/386819_2.png) [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jonah_Gravenstein)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 8:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763/733 "2020-03-16T20:13:13Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > The problem is that following that law, you should never try to improve the game for new players I disagree, Malcanis’ law merely states that which CCP appear to fail to take into account when they make changes to improve the lot of new players; specifically that richer and older players will leverage those changes in unforeseen ways to the detriment of the people the changes are tailored towards. I have no problems with CCP improving the new player’s lot, I just wish that they’d think it through before they do so in order to minimise the chances of older players taking advantage. ---
**Author:** ![Wadiest\_Yong](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wadiest_yong/32/426921_2.png) [@Wadiest\_Yong](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wadiest_Yong)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 8:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763/734 "2020-03-16T20:19:36Z")
A very simple solution for any rookie’s problems is to join a corp/alliance run by an older player. That’s the best chance anyone can have to actually learn how to play and continue playing EvE. This excuse of “The Survival of EvE” to try to slip in changes would hurt the game in a major way. That would make EvE a less than mediocre game compared to others out there, with even less customer loyalty, less income and less of a future. If new players are so desperate for changes in a game they barely know, quite frankly, maybe they’re not the target audience of EvE and should find their recreation elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Codename\_Shadow\_Broker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/codename_shadow_broker/32/407527_2.png) [@Codename\_Shadow\_Broker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Codename_Shadow_Broker)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 8:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763/735 "2020-03-16T20:21:02Z")
You need to learn the game mechanics to avoid wardecs. ---
**Author:** ![QuakeGod](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/quakegod/32/480339_2.png) [@QuakeGod](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/QuakeGod)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 8:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763/738 "2020-03-16T20:36:14Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > And they need to do more. Just One More Nerf ™ ---
**Author:** ![Wadiest\_Yong](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wadiest_yong/32/426921_2.png) [@Wadiest\_Yong](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wadiest_Yong)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 8:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763/739 "2020-03-16T20:38:51Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > No it’s not. It’s a game where a bunch of veterans who joined the game when it was easy Oh yes it is. Denying it won’t make it truth. The reason why the game was never a mega seller was exactly that, it was tough as nails and complicated. Who kept playing ? The ones that liked understanding intricate mechanics, were creative with them and came up with sometimes ingenious solutions AND accepted the game’s rules as a unique opportunity. The game always was - and is - harsh by design - check Hilmar’s interviews of last summer, talking about the harsh and dangerous environment, and how he wants it be even more dangerous. What makes the game dangerous ? Its players, their networks, their creativity. And it’s the fact that players together overcome obstacles that makes them enjoy the game, create friendships and keep coming back for more. Further trimming the freedom we have in the game would be a devastating blow to the game itself. Yes, it’s a hard game to get into. Yes, the UI is complicated. Indeed, there is no “manual” (there was in the past, player made), ccp even “lost” the tutorial videos in February. If you can’t deal with existing mechanics, you stand no chance at all against the creativity of human opponents. ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 8:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763/740 "2020-03-16T20:39:26Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Why should we not? If EVE is to continue it need to retain new players as well as veterans. We shouldn’t care because the players in question are poorly suited to EVE and aren’t likely to stay very long anyway. It’s utter stupidity to compromise on the things that make EVE unique and secure its primary customer base in a desperate effort to make some new customers stay a few days longer before they encounter different adversity and quit. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763.md?page=32) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/war-decs-should-cost-10m-additional-isk-for-each-outgoing-war/225763.md?page=34)