# What has happened to this game? **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [July 25, 2021, 9:55am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-has-happened-to-this-game/321226 "2021-07-25T09:55:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Gerard\_Amatin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gerard_amatin/32/481361_2.png) [@Gerard\_Amatin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gerard_Amatin)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2021, 9:58am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-has-happened-to-this-game/321226/173 "2021-07-26T09:58:20Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > I’t not necessarily about beating them, but in most MMOs the aim is getting to the same end game position. In EVE, that’s impossible. A new player now will never achieve what many veterans have. Correct, because by the time the new player has caught up (which is possible) they won’t be a ‘new player’ anymore. I see no issue with that. After playing for a few years I’m slowly transiting from new player to veteran player. I can fly a lot of T2 and T3 subcaps now and recently even a couple of capitals. Some more years and this one-time-newbie can fly pretty much everything. New players can achieve what veteran players have, but it will take them time (or money) to do so and by the time they have caught up in SP, ISK and player skill they’re not new players anymore. And that’s OK. The game has been designed in such a way that new players have time to gain player skill in effective yet cheap ships while training SP to fly the more expensive ships. Even better, because EVE is designed in such a way that it doesn’t take long to specialise in _one specific thing_, a newbie can fly specific ships at a similar level to specialised veterans in a much shorter time. The only benefit of the veteran is that they can fly a lot of things well, while a specialised newbie can fly only one or a couple things well if they go this route. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2021, 10:29am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-has-happened-to-this-game/321226/175 "2021-07-26T10:29:33Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Whataboutism detected. Yep. Asking people to support their claims with evidence rather than anecdotal whining is ‘whataboutism’. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2021, 10:33am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-has-happened-to-this-game/321226/177 "2021-07-26T10:33:50Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > pointing at another random player He was talking to me, and i replied to him. You are the ‘random player’. ---
**Author:** ![Gerard\_Amatin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gerard_amatin/32/481361_2.png) [@Gerard\_Amatin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gerard_Amatin)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2021, 10:34am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-has-happened-to-this-game/321226/178 "2021-07-26T10:34:00Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > You’ll never catch up. Most of the rich veterans are rich veterans because they capitalised on changes that came through with expansions that are unlikely to be seen again. So what does new players stop from capitalising on upcoming changes? The game is still undergoing massive changes, as we can see from the effect of for example scarcity and the industry changes on the game. As long as CCP keeps developing the game as they do now, players (inculding new ones) will be able to capitalise on those changes to make ISK. And trillions of ISK aren’t even needed to enjoy the game. With ‘only’ billions of ISK you can fly the majority of ships EVE has to offer and any player can make billions of ISK if they spend some time. Even new players. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Congratulations? I could start a new character right now and withing half an hour be able to fly everything. That’s the difference between a newbie and a veteran. Newbies can do so as well, but they’ll be missing the player skill to keep those expensive ships alive. As I see it, a newbie is lacking in a few things compared to veterans in EVE: 1. SP 2. ISK 3. player skill and knowledge You can buy the first two if you’re willing to spend more money on the game. But a newbie will still miss the player skill and knowledge to make good use of that SP and ISK. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > At the end of the day though, if you enjoy the game, great, but I honestly don’t see the appeal when compared with a plethora of games that cost a fraction of the price and aren’t running on decade legacy code that the developers are too scared to touch. EVE is no longer an old MMO with potential to revitalise it’s a game fixated on milking P2W mechanics and microtransactions. I agree, enjoying the game is great. Sounds like you’re not just a veteran but a _bitter_ veteran at that. “Newbies cannot catch up” “I see no appeal to the game” “no longer an old MMO with potential” blah blah blah New players can transition into a bitter vet day one if they listen to you. No need for SP, ISK or player skill and knowledge! All that’s needed for a newbie to become a veteran is an unhealthy dose of bitter pessimism! ---
**Author:** ![DeMichael\_Crimson](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/demichael_crimson/32/514115_2.png) [@DeMichael\_Crimson](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/DeMichael_Crimson)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2021, 10:44am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-has-happened-to-this-game/321226/179 "2021-07-26T10:44:15Z")
You’re wasting you time, I’ve already stated on multiple occasions that the stats in the CCP Rice presentation are flawed and set up to portray a specific result. However Daichi Yamato and a few others here refuse to see it because that will negate their claim of High Sec Suicide Ganking on new players promotes player retention. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2021, 11:04am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-has-happened-to-this-game/321226/181 "2021-07-26T11:04:20Z")
> [@DeMichael\_Crimson](#): > > You’re wasting you time, I’ve already stated on multiple occasions that the stats in the CCP Rice presentation are flawed and set up to portray a specific result. However Daichi Yamato and a few others here refuse to see it because that will negate their claim of High Sec Suicide Ganking on new players promotes player retention. If you’ve got some better data, let’s see it. Why don’t you deliberately twist the words of the ‘magic moment’ again? > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > People like Daichi will only ever accept information they agree with, regardless of how valid it is. That’s just it. What information are you, OP, DMC or anyone else providing? **Sincere question** : other than baseless accusations of CCP cover ups, pure conjecture and anecdotal whining, what information or ‘facts’ are you offering? ---
**Author:** ![Iceacid\_Frostpacker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/iceacid_frostpacker/32/505689_2.png) [@Iceacid\_Frostpacker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Iceacid_Frostpacker)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2021, 11:07am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-has-happened-to-this-game/321226/182 "2021-07-26T11:07:17Z")
This is my frame of mind after adding in potential loss if or when moving shipments of self mined ore. I have jump clones just waiting with the right implants where I pencil in eve activities where I am fine to produce from those free blueprints. Though I do allow them to build up and also watch the market sell prices of the finished ships before carrying out the day or so to produce, In closing I just want to say that I don’t think I am alone on this. ---
**Author:** ![DeMichael\_Crimson](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/demichael_crimson/32/514115_2.png) [@DeMichael\_Crimson](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/DeMichael_Crimson)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2021, 11:09am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-has-happened-to-this-game/321226/184 "2021-07-26T11:09:30Z")
> [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > Why don’t you deliberately twist the words of the ‘magic moment’ again? 🥱 No words were twisted. The stats on that presentation show there’s an issue and CCP Helmar’s statement of ‘Help them understand why it happened’, ‘Help them to quickly recover from the loss’ and ‘Help them to get revenge’ say’s it all. ---
**Author:** ![Iceacid\_Frostpacker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/iceacid_frostpacker/32/505689_2.png) [@Iceacid\_Frostpacker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Iceacid_Frostpacker)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2021, 11:10am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-has-happened-to-this-game/321226/186 "2021-07-26T11:10:38Z")
Greetings Princess, your petty isk advancement request was approved and will be deposited after restart. Frostpacker apologize for the delay. ---
**Author:** ![Aiko\_Danuja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aiko_danuja/32/481237_2.png) [@Aiko\_Danuja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aiko_Danuja)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2021, 11:11am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-has-happened-to-this-game/321226/187 "2021-07-26T11:11:59Z")
Now that’s how a new player gets ahead in this game! Aiko is going straight to the top! 🚀 ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2021, 11:21am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-has-happened-to-this-game/321226/188 "2021-07-26T11:21:02Z")
> [@DeMichael\_Crimson](#): > > No words were twisted. So you didn’t twist ‘first ship loss’ into ‘ganking’? And you didn’t twist ‘magic moment’ into ‘players quitting’? And I’ve just realised how frequently you do that. In this thread and previous threads. You look so hard for something that validates your view that you so very often misinterpret what is actually being said. Still waiting on your data. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > all I can do is point out the clear failures in logic used by CCP in deciding that a 20 day old player getting rekt in a mining barge then ragequitting doesn’t count as “new player” and other such obvious flaws in what CCP laughingly calls “research”. I wish that was all you do. Or perhaps i wish you were more consistent. You’re more than happy to let people with zero data argue the opposite as fact. Instead you jump on anyone presenting the only data we have. Too much tribalism. ---
**Author:** ![Kylanti\_Hendar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kylanti_hendar/32/385538_2.png) [@Kylanti\_Hendar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kylanti_Hendar)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2021, 11:31am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-has-happened-to-this-game/321226/189 "2021-07-26T11:31:38Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Congratulations? I could start a new character right now and withing half an hour be able to fly everything. That’s the difference between a newbie and a veteran. Good, because a newbie who can achieve all that in half an hour won’t have much reason to stay - will they? ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2021, 11:35am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-has-happened-to-this-game/321226/191 "2021-07-26T11:35:55Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > You only present that data because you agree with it and so you ignore the flaws. I only present that data because it is the **only** data. Like here you are accusing me of denying information because it doesn’t agree with me: > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > People like Daichi will only ever accept information they agree with, regardless of how valid it is. But can you tell me what information i have denied? Can you quote me? Can any of the people that liked the post? @Dracvlad @DeMichael_Crimson > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > It’s got nothing to do with tribalism, it’s to do with having a carebear PvP mechanic that lets a very small group of players farm newbies for “tears” with no serious risk or investment in a game with serious retention issues. And I’m sure you have data to support that. ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2021, 11:37am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-has-happened-to-this-game/321226/192 "2021-07-26T11:37:14Z")
You ignored the flaws because it suits you to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2021, 11:37am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-has-happened-to-this-game/321226/193 "2021-07-26T11:37:42Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > I’t not necessarily about beating them, but in most MMOs the aim is getting to the same end game position. In EVE, that’s impossible. A new player now will never achieve what many veterans have. It takes about 12-18 months to reach peak EVE PvP skills for someone who’s focusing on being competitive, which is roughly equal to the amount of time it takes to become fully proficient in one or two races, outside of some specialty ships. Past that point, once game mechanics are memorized and familiarity with ships and items is established, personal skills are the only deciding factor in conflicts. If you define veterancy as having trillions in your wallet, ownership of a bunch of super-capitals, and a leadership position in a major alliance, well, that’s just _you_. Not all veterans want (or even have) those things. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > In short, there’s all sorts of way to balance what I believe would be a minimal economic impact of the removal of ganking. You can believe it to be as minimal as you want, but fact of the matter remains it’s a quarter to a third of all destruction in the game, which is the game’s sole economic driver. Creating impediments to production isn’t the same thing as driving the economy - it produces a much different set of effects. Fundamentally, you and your buddies are _in the wrong game_. This is Game of Thrones in space, and not a cooperative factory sim. Stuff gets destroyed, replaced, and people fight over the ability to destroy and replace it faster. You’re welcome to stay here if you want, but trying to change EVE into some kind of nu-gamer cooperative PvE experience isn’t going to be a stance that’s universally accepted. Ganking is here to stay, because CCP is aware that your “cure” is worse than the disease. And they don’t need you to tell them how to manage their business. ---
**Author:** ![Aiko\_Danuja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aiko_danuja/32/481237_2.png) [@Aiko\_Danuja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aiko_Danuja)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2021, 11:38am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-has-happened-to-this-game/321226/194 "2021-07-26T11:38:42Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > PvP mechanic that lets a very small group of players farm newbies for “tears” …but this is nonsense… …I’m the new player, and the people I kill have been playing longer than me. Ganking improves new player retention, because it is the mechanic by which new players can DUNK on lazy fat bittervet losers. ---
**Author:** ![DeMichael\_Crimson](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/demichael_crimson/32/514115_2.png) [@DeMichael\_Crimson](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/DeMichael_Crimson)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2021, 11:40am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-has-happened-to-this-game/321226/195 "2021-07-26T11:40:15Z")
> [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > So you didn’t twist ‘first ship loss’ into ‘ganking’? > And you didn’t twist ‘magic moment’ into ‘players quitting’? Wow, talk about being obstinate. First ship loss is the ‘Magic Moment’ of when a new player decides to stay or quit. Helmar’s statements in that presentation say’s it all. Help them understand why it happened. Help them to quickly recover the loss. Help them get revenge. Those statements should give you a clue of what he was referring to. ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2021, 11:42am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-has-happened-to-this-game/321226/196 "2021-07-26T11:42:52Z")
> [@DeMichael\_Crimson](#): > > Help them get revenge. This part is missing by the way, in regards to hisec ganking, just in case gankers decide to misquote and deflect. ---
**Author:** ![Jayce\_Fitzpatrick](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jayce_fitzpatrick/32/383289_2.png) [@Jayce\_Fitzpatrick](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jayce_Fitzpatrick)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2021, 11:42am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-has-happened-to-this-game/321226/197 "2021-07-26T11:42:56Z")
> [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > So you didn’t twist ‘first ship loss’ into ‘ganking’? > And you didn’t twist ‘magic moment’ into ‘players quitting’? I lost the overview of this thread, but I see you are referencing to this argument. > [@Make security status proportional to Concord reaction time](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/make-security-status-proportional-to-concord-reaction-time/315432/48): > > I think, concluding that Hilmar was hinting the 90% loss is due to suicide ganking is a bit of a stretch. [Here](https://youtu.be/Vw67gb6eoYk) is the talk in question. The referenced bit in the timeframe 38:21 - 43:35. So we have all these people. Everyday, 25,000 people trying to be a part of the friendship machine. And just epically failing at it, because we are epically failing at it. I think us CCP, we have the role for the first 7 days, then you guys can help a lot in the what’s to follow. A lot of the new player org… Just leaving the tread here, in case you need it. ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2021, 11:45am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-has-happened-to-this-game/321226/198 "2021-07-26T11:45:03Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > I’ve suggested in the past active defense mechanics that allow anti-gankers to actually be effective so that gankers can’t just multibox a fleet of disposable characters in the second slots of SP farm accounts. If the mechanics aren’t going to be balanced though I fully support just ripping them out because I don’t think anything of particular value would be lost and I fully believe that it would have a positive impact on retention. I like the first part of this because it is exactly what I feel, but removing ganking is perhaps too much for me, though I understand why you say that. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-has-happened-to-this-game/321226.md?page=7) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-has-happened-to-this-game/321226.md?page=9)