# What is Causing EVE to Die? **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [November 29, 2024, 7:27am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580 "2024-11-29T07:27:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 38
**Author:** ![Cam\_Clarke](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cam_clarke/32/403045_2.png) [@Cam\_Clarke](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cam_Clarke)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2025, 2:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/900 "2025-01-17T14:36:50Z")
This game used to be way better before Crimewatch. ---
**Author:** ![Distaine](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/distaine/32/502653_2.png) [@Distaine](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Distaine)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2025, 2:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/901 "2025-01-17T14:37:07Z")
I learned the most about pvp as a noob by undocking and flying a rifter while not afraid to lose it. Its not hard and not expensive. You just have to put your ego aside and accept that you know nothing yet. ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2025, 2:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/902 "2025-01-17T14:39:27Z")
> [@Argel\_OTF2](#): > > Or I don’t know, just keep defending the game that has declined in player numbers consistently for the last decade I agree with much of what you said in that post, however this point needs some clarification. Nearly **every** game that is over a couple years old is generally declining in numbers. With occasional peaks when new content or changes are released. That’s not really something that can be blamed on any one aspect of the game. And my own personal belief is that the cycle of “here’s a behavior in game that isn’t working well, let’s either **eliminate it** or try to **tie it in a straitjacket** so players can _only_ interact in the way we want” is bad for game development and _particularly_ bad for a game where one of the main selling points is ‘sandbox’ design. Design changes really should be focused on providing more options, more growth progression paths, and risk/reward avenues more keyed to what _actually_ motivates players to play more. Many players prefer high-sec PvE, for instance, because it’s somewhat profitable, it feels productive, and the risks are reduced so they don’t _always_ feel the need to D-Scan every 20 seconds and check out every name in local, etc. That doesn’t mean it should be 100% risk-free, just reduced to reasonable types of risks. And high-sec PvP can exist, but be channeled in ways so that more interesting types of combat occur rather than simply gankers trying to find someone asleep at the wheel, or griefers annoying the hell out of a target hoping to trigger them into shooting back so they can score an easy kill. ---
**Author:** ![Distaine](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/distaine/32/502653_2.png) [@Distaine](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Distaine)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2025, 2:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/903 "2025-01-17T14:40:53Z")
Highsec is its own End-Game. (This is a quote from a certain dev) The mentality that its a place to exist before joining a blue bubble in nullsec is what needs to change also. Oh Kezrai… also people prefer highsec because its subcap combat. I hate bubbles and I hate the hot drop game. ---
**Author:** ![Ivan\_Grzonka](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ivan_grzonka/32/484990_2.png) [@Ivan\_Grzonka](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ivan_Grzonka)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2025, 2:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/904 "2025-01-17T14:43:43Z")
So…the goal is to destroy the blue bubble i guess ? ---
**Author:** ![Distaine](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/distaine/32/502653_2.png) [@Distaine](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Distaine)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2025, 2:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/905 "2025-01-17T14:44:47Z")
I dont care what nullsec does with nullsec… the issue I have with them is how they have helped destroy highsec with their own interests in mind. Most of our PvP is gone because CCP wanted to give null blobs to ability to blob a war hq. This has major side effects that i can talk about with much experience. They said it was to protect the new guys but thats a lie. Its there to ensure complete and total control which is currently in effect. ---
**Author:** ![Gloria\_Exercitus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gloria_exercitus/32/509735_2.png) [@Gloria\_Exercitus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gloria_Exercitus)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2025, 2:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/906 "2025-01-17T14:46:20Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > Nearly **every** game that is over a couple years old is generally declining in numbers. With occasional peaks when new content or changes are released. That’s not really something that can be blamed on any one aspect of the game. Mike Azariah, only last week, questioned the very notion that ‘Eve is dying’. So the entire 'Why is Eve dying ’ rhetoric is actually a classic loaded question in the first place that assumes as a priori that it actually _is_. Im actually consistently seeing _more_ people logged in than in my prior 3 years in Eve. Its not a huge upturn, but it is an upturn. Of course, we then get the ’ oh, that’s just due to more multiboxers’ assertion from those who don’t WANT their ‘Eve Is Dying’ narrative to be false. I suspect a lot of the ‘Eve Is Dying’ crowd are just bored vets _who want an excuse to leave_, and who choose that one. I mean, no point playing a ‘dying’ game, is there. ---
**Author:** ![Distaine](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/distaine/32/502653_2.png) [@Distaine](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Distaine)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2025, 2:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/907 "2025-01-17T14:49:59Z")
Ive monitored the economic changes and seen the active player counts in Jita and Amarr plus my own channels for years. My businesses show the activity in major portions of each trade hub. Ive run multi-trillion isk business from north to south for many years. Trust me, Eve is dying and its not just the general decline in gaming which we can do nothing about except make our own game better. This is kinda cheesy… but there’s one way to make the world a better place which works 100% of the time. Make yourself better. I know exactly what a new player in highsec deals with from the beginning to the very top from running your businesses to taking power and walking the path upward. Highsec is in a very bad state. ---
**Author:** ![Gloria\_Exercitus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gloria_exercitus/32/509735_2.png) [@Gloria\_Exercitus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gloria_Exercitus)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2025, 2:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/908 "2025-01-17T14:54:28Z")
I haven’t noticed any changes at Jita, but I have noticed a _lot_ less gankers hanging about outside Dodixie. Three years ago you’d find 30 or 40 people hanging around outside the station. These days you’d be lucky to find anyone other than some die-hard Novus Ordo member. There isn’t actually less ganking ( or suspect hunting ) overall…so its a bit puzzling. ---
**Author:** ![Distaine](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/distaine/32/502653_2.png) [@Distaine](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Distaine)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2025, 2:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/909 "2025-01-17T14:57:58Z")
I remember sitting outside Dodi with my boys at war. There were many small gangs to worry about and even the small indi corps had teeth when they got pushed. People grow balls when they realize its only 4 dudes on single accounts they have to prepare for. War Hqs are the reason you all in highsec had to deal with posers like SRS who only had 5 people using 10 to 15 accounts each as the bottom entry point to real pvp. They paid for it all with a Visa each month and couldn’t do anything but sit on a citadel with mulitiboxed Paladins. **As long as war hqs exist, this will be the entry point to pvp other than ganking.** And just in case you dont read my other posts. Even if you do manage to fight 50 paladins as a base entry level… you still only get to exist by permission from those up the power pyramid. And at the top is nullsec blocks who dont even fkn live in highsec. (if SRS reads this, yeah… I fuked you. From the time you met me to the time you lost everything you had) ---
**Author:** ![Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ax_l_thorne/32/412835_2.png) [@Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ax_l_Thorne)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2025, 3:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/910 "2025-01-17T15:15:23Z")
@Kezrai_Charzai Still waiting for that proof… > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > Otherwise all the proven facts stated by professional devs say that unrestricted PvP leads to a relatively small number of players driving a huge number of players out of the game. Where is it? Oh you claimed it’s buried somewhere above. But the onus is on you to provide it every single time you use it as evidence for your claims. And besides, how hard is it for you to copy and paste a link? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Argel\_OTF2](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/argel_otf2/32/388676_2.png) [@Argel\_OTF2](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Argel_OTF2)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2025, 3:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/911 "2025-01-17T15:45:02Z")
I think that’s entirely fair. Truth is I think there’s a better balance than what I suggested. I don’t have all the answers, but the idea of progressive amounts of safety needs to be reflected more so that new players are not driven out. ---
**Author:** ![Argel\_OTF2](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/argel_otf2/32/388676_2.png) [@Argel\_OTF2](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Argel_OTF2)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2025, 3:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/912 "2025-01-17T15:48:30Z")
> [@Gloria\_Exercitus](#): > > Which totally makes my point. You **don’t** care about protecting the Eve that has existed for almost 22 years. You want to convert it into a completely different game…whilst all along _pretending_ that you care about the game. > > Frankly, if people with your mindset are leaving the game…it can only be _good_ for its preservation. So stop poisoning the well and go play Farmville. The EVE that has existed for 22 years will not exist in any meaningful sense in 10 years time unless it attracts new players. At that point you will question why it went wrong, and the opportunity will be gone. For you, EVE is about the ability to gank. That is not the sole reason that people start playing EVE. They know they can play a few roles, they know there’ll be piracy to some degree, but they also leave in droves after experiencing the game’s reality. It is ludicrous that the suggestion of simply rebalancing where ganking can occur provokes such anger from people who like I said, cannot see the damage they do to new players. ---
**Author:** ![Gloria\_Exercitus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gloria_exercitus/32/509735_2.png) [@Gloria\_Exercitus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gloria_Exercitus)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2025, 3:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/913 "2025-01-17T15:49:00Z")
> [@Distaine](#): > > if SRS reads this Yes, I remember SRS. I think I took part in some battles to destroy them because they were just wantonly wiping out too many stations in highsec…or something like that. ---
**Author:** ![Gloria\_Exercitus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gloria_exercitus/32/509735_2.png) [@Gloria\_Exercitus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gloria_Exercitus)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2025, 3:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/914 "2025-01-17T15:58:23Z")
> [@Argel\_OTF2](#): > > The EVE that has existed for 22 years will not exist in any meaningful sense in 10 years time unless it attracts new players. It’s not going to attract new players if people keep running around like headless chickens proclaiming ‘the sky is falling down’. > [@Argel\_OTF2](#): > > For you, EVE is about the ability to gank. Nope. I don’t gank that much. For me, Eve is about maintaining a risk environment where nobody is safe anywhere. > [@Argel\_OTF2](#): > > they also leave in droves after experiencing the game’s reality Really ??? All of my early ‘harassment’ in EVE… 1. Ganked within first few weeks 2. Gate camped in lowsec within first few weeks ( in fact on my very first trip to lowsec ) 3. Procurer nerfed by CCP within 2 months of joining…almost made me leave. 4. My first corp ship gate camped on way back from asset safety. How ‘unfair’ ! 5. My 3rd noob alt trounced by NPCs My first few weeks were a saga of loss and frustration that some would ‘protect’ me from as SURELY all that stuff would make me ‘leave the game’. Yet, here I still am, 3 years later, stronger than ever. And if I can do it…anyone can. And that is really all that anyone reading the mountains of waffle on this page needs to know. You can do it. You don’t NEED protecting by those who would ruin the fun and risk of the game. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Deveron](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/max_deveron/32/245870_2.png) [@Max\_Deveron](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Max_Deveron)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2025, 4:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/915 "2025-01-17T16:04:27Z")
comparative examples in economics…hmmm so you want to talk coke… when you should be talking about having a mortgage, on top of the loan payments(eve sub) you are spending your money in Gold(plex) to use the gold to buy a new car every time you crash it or it otherwise breaks… That is the analogy your speaking of…and it makes no sense. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Deveron](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/max_deveron/32/245870_2.png) [@Max\_Deveron](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Max_Deveron)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2025, 4:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/916 "2025-01-17T16:09:10Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > Actually PvE players drive and supply the entire economy and function of all aspects of EVE, not just the PvP. And the real ‘leeches’ here are the high sec PvPers who don’t have the balls to venture into spaces where they might themselves be at risk, ,and instead hang around driving people out of the game in the _starter area_. actually the real leeches are the people that want you to give them free ships give them same or better pay than market give them tax free zone give them free corp offices give them upwell structures to use give them PoCo access to own But when you ask them to give something back in return, like a little more effort, or to gank, or to be able to fight in wardecs… They ballk and call you a dictator, a cult, a whole list of things… those are the leeches and deplorable people. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Deveron](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/max_deveron/32/245870_2.png) [@Max\_Deveron](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Max_Deveron)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2025, 4:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/917 "2025-01-17T16:11:04Z")
> [@Gloria\_Exercitus](#): > > 3 years later 3 whole years… That explains a lot… ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2025, 4:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/918 "2025-01-17T16:18:15Z")
> [@Distaine](#): > > Oh Kezrai… also people prefer highsec because its subcap combat. I hate bubbles and I hate the hot drop game. Agreed, this is definitely an issue. I’ve made several posts on this problem in the past. If I was re-designing that aspect, I’d make high-sec smaller (1.0 to 0.6) and the “fairly safe with some risk” zone, lo-sec a bit larger (0.5 to 0.1) and most of it would be the “no caps no bubbles no cyno, subcap combat zone”. Which would probably benefit FW as well. And only the lowest 0.2 and 0.1 security levels would have capitals, bubbles and cyno as a staging area between low and null. And adding in some new sites and challenges there that need those level of ships. ---
**Author:** ![Gloria\_Exercitus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gloria_exercitus/32/509735_2.png) [@Gloria\_Exercitus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gloria_Exercitus)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2025, 4:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/919 "2025-01-17T16:20:57Z")
> [@Max\_Deveron](#): > > when you should be talking about having a mortgage, on top of the loan payments(eve sub) you are spending your money in Gold(plex) to use the gold to buy a new car every time you crash it or it otherwise breaks… My ISK losses are 0.11% of what I’ve been involved in killing. A thousandth. Of course it all costs money, but I’d call that good value. I pay the subscription in order to kill stuff…and I kill lots of stuff. If I was losing way more than I killed, that would be another matter. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580.md?page=37) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580.md?page=39)