# What is Causing EVE to Die? **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [November 29, 2024, 7:27am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580 "2024-11-29T07:27:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 40
**Author:** ![MB\_ThePhotographer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mb_thephotographer/32/373722_2.png) [@MB\_ThePhotographer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/MB_ThePhotographer)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2025, 12:56am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/946 "2025-01-18T00:56:27Z")
> [@Glenduil](#): > > and then you need to be prepared when those actions occasionally clash. Thank you for proving my point. > [@Aallin\_Gicquet](#): > > So I am a little confused as to how you think it is deceptive? It does not warn you of the risk. It used to be I, and many others would insult you for not knowing this. But EVE has woke players now who show up and they think they can go anywhere and do what they like, then shed salt tears (my personal favorite 😏 ) about getting popped/not being able to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Gloria\_Exercitus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gloria_exercitus/32/509735_2.png) [@Gloria\_Exercitus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gloria_Exercitus)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2025, 2:15am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/947 "2025-01-18T02:15:27Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > UO developers said unrestricted PvP was driving players away Who cares what they said. This isn’t UO. You really must be desperate for ‘quotes’ if you have to trawl through obscure references in other games…and even your EVE quotes are _7 years ago_. > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > CSM responded by saying the numbers were “so stark” it justified immediate removal of wardecs from the game. At which point Brisc Rubal ( who said that…again I emphasise 7 years ago ) stopped having anything more to do with wardecs ? He did…didn’t he ?? > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > EVE’s best year ever for player logins was 2013 So what ? The best year for Chateaux Margaux was 1990…every year since is still some of the best wine in the world. > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > So, the **net result** of full PvP is “players leaving in droves” Gosh…you strain at a gnat and swallow a camel…as the Biblical saying goes. You somehow manage to work out some grandiose claim like pulling a rabbit from a hat…out of practically no relevant or timely or useful information whatever. And once again you are using ‘argumentum verbosium’ and shoving in everything but the kitchen sink. Just toss in a bunch of ‘facts’…_quite literally word salad_…and out pops some claim that only in your mind can be derived from said ‘facts’. I am reminded of O’Brien desperately trying to convince Winston Smith that 2+2 = 5 ---
**Author:** ![Gloria\_Exercitus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gloria_exercitus/32/509735_2.png) [@Gloria\_Exercitus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gloria_Exercitus)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2025, 2:24am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/948 "2025-01-18T02:24:23Z")
> [@Mr\_Epeen](#): > > At least you changed the words. It was a good point, worth repeating. ---
**Author:** ![Cam\_Clarke](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cam_clarke/32/403045_2.png) [@Cam\_Clarke](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cam_Clarke)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2025, 2:24am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/949 "2025-01-18T02:24:51Z")
Yo Bladewise. Been like what, 11 years? Pretty sick that you’re still around after all this time, far as I know everyone else from SN moved on, largely as a result of CCP’s policies that are contributing to EVE’s demise. Edited to be more on-topic because someone still hates SN after all these years and flagged this. ---
**Author:** ![Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ax_l_thorne/32/412835_2.png) [@Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ax_l_Thorne)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2025, 3:02am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/950 "2025-01-18T03:02:49Z")
> [@Gloria\_Exercitus](#): > > Just toss in a bunch of ‘facts’… To be fair, they are facts. They may no longer apply to, _today_. EvE did have a hayday. A pinnacle at which the most players had ever logged in. But that number has reduced, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that the game is dying. She’s trying to dupe people into believing that a correlation is the same as causation. A perfect example of this kind of trickery is the ice cream causes murder example. Murder rates go up in the summer time. Ice cream rates also increase in the summer time. Therefore the increase in ice-cream sales increase murder rates. Failing to take into account that there just might be a third factor at play here. Heat. Now she’s going to claim, after reading this that the third party here is ganking. But that can’t be because she made the claim that the primary source of the game dying is ganking, so there isn’t some sort of third party at play here like, lack of interest. Lack of available time, age of the game, saturation of games on the market. None of that exists, and none of that could possibly factor into it, unless some learned hack, releases some study that isn’t at all biased, nor takes into a broad sampling range says otherwise. I mean at some point in time, they will pull the plug on the severs, and people like Kezari will throw her hands in the air and proclaim, “I was right! EvE was dying! See, it all came true! Completely and totally convinced that it was all the signs they claimed were there, unaware that, things just naturally die. Seasons come and go. But they will hark that it was all the gankers fault, then move onto the next PvP orientated game, claim that it’s not, foul up the forums with cherry picked and out dated “facts” and cry how mean pvpers ruin things, until that game is shut down. It’s very much like the parasitic life cycle of malaria. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Deveron](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/max_deveron/32/245870_2.png) [@Max\_Deveron](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Max_Deveron)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2025, 3:17am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/951 "2025-01-18T03:17:51Z")
> [@Sojourner\_Sa\_an](#): > > none of the original founders are with the game you forgot about HIllmar, the CEO…he is still running the store. ---
**Author:** ![Sojourner\_Sa\_an](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sojourner_sa_an/32/426480_2.png) [@Sojourner\_Sa\_an](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sojourner_Sa_an)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2025, 5:25am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/953 "2025-01-18T05:25:19Z")
Hilmar’s been around for a very long time, but just going by the wiki article on CCP Games I don’t believe he’s one of the three original founders, not that I know them personally or know much about the company other than that. ---
**Author:** ![Eloken\_Toralen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/eloken_toralen/32/401714_2.png) [@Eloken\_Toralen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Eloken_Toralen)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2025, 6:47am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/955 "2025-01-18T06:47:01Z")
> [@Bladewise](#): > > No the optimal strategy for defeating wardecs is looking at the attackers killboards, see what their intentions are, see what ships they’re bringing, and ■■■■■■■ wipe the floor with them when they come for you citadel. Citadel? Back then there were no citadels, there was not war HQ, it was %100 pure greif and statation games. > [@Bladewise](#): > > Expecting it to be anything else is pure entitlement. Entitlement was expecting the existing system where 5 groups were declaring over %50 of the wars with a 100:1 kill ratio would contine forever. > [@Bladewise](#): > > If it were any other way all your PvE ventures would be literally worthless Yet with the current ‘no structure no wars’ mechanic we would have been able to do what we were doing without the inconvenience and still get as much value from an activity as any other group. > [@Bladewise](#): > > One of the oldest and most emblematic communities was lost. > [@Bladewise](#): > > It was a MASSIVE nerf to content and removed more playstyles than probably any other singular change. Nothing stopping people from fighting in low sec or null, plenty of suspects out there to this very day. > [@Bladewise](#): > > NOBODY TAKES FIGHTS THEY’RE NOT SURE THEY’RE GONNA WIN. There are a number of 31337 PvP U tubers who seem to find a congo line of n00bs thinking their kestrel is just the thing to take on a faction fit orthrus who might disagree. > [@Bladewise](#): > > Without shades of gray, content would never happen. Null has no shades and it has plenty of places where nothing happens. > [@Bladewise](#): > > They literally will just go play league of legends my dude. Y’all are killing the game with this entitled mentality. World of Tanks actually, even with the odd teir mismatches the sides were at lease event. Games that refuse to adapt to the market will not last, especially not games that put the incumbents into an indomitable position from which they can piss all over the new people with impunity. > [@Bladewise](#): > > The PvP nerfs started in 2016 and haven’t stopped since. I must have blinked and missed it. The Skyhook robbery mechanic was a huge but temporary boost to PvP, though really became a victim of its own success. The null groups got exhausted with the constant pinging, despite its very unique mechanic that forced the agressor to make a commitment rather than just be another nano kitey crapfest like the ESS. > [@Bladewise](#): > > Except you always seem to ignore the fact that your PvE would be worthless without large amounts of destruction. That assumes one is a seller, and not a buyer. A monthly spend of $15 gets quite a lot of spaceships, easily double that of 5 years ago since prices are not indexing with PLEX inflation. There isn’t a PvP player in the land who would say no to things costing less… > [@Bladewise](#): > > Y’all are leeches. You inflate the currency and offer little to no real content in return. The collosal failure of blackout indicates otherwise. > [@Bladewise](#): > > It’s WHY suicide ganking was so effective. It wasn’t that it was OP. It was that y’all are clueless about how the mechanics work and there are WAY more of you than is sustainable for a PvP-mmo. and > [@Bladewise](#): > > These nerfs only happened because CCP is ■■■■■■■ clueless as to what is good for this game. PvE players whine like crazy about it and since CCP is ■■■■■■■ clueless they’re like “sure, why not It was OP for people using a menagarie of alpha accounts to pull off ganks, otherwise CCP wouldn’t have locked red safety behind omega status. If “ya’ll” weren’t such a greedy bunch a modicum of restraint wouldn’t have killed the golden goose. > [@Bladewise](#): > > You mean you try to get PVEers. Show me in the NPE where there is PvP? > [@Bladewise](#): > > You don’t have PvPers. Well, its not like cornflakes come out of the box with milk already added? > [@Bladewise](#): > > You might have people willing to PvP IF THEY HAVE TO. Actually most of those currently PvP because they want to, or at least want to learn. > [@Bladewise](#): > > But you don’t get players logging on every day looking for real content. The EU-TZ I play with are a pretty bloodthirsty bunch, always the same charaters logged in but it is getting depressing with the number of 100MN nano stabbers trying to rob the ESS and just cloaking/fillamenting away. Though I do dislike the nano kitey folk that hang off the ESS grid just as much, sure its ‘PvP’ but is it really when they can run away faster than sonic the hedgehog ? ---
**Author:** ![Eloken\_Toralen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/eloken_toralen/32/401714_2.png) [@Eloken\_Toralen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Eloken_Toralen)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2025, 6:54am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/956 "2025-01-18T06:54:40Z")
> [@Argel\_OTF2](#): > > I mean this is it, in a nutshell. The first person makes a reasonable point that is not really about what anyone thinks is ‘right’ or ‘wrong’, just the factual idea that **if other people turn the game into something a person does not want to play, and there is no way to avoid it, then these players leave and go and play something else.** This benefits nobody, even the gankers, who ultimately lose targets. _Bless_ > [@Argel\_OTF2](#): > > This is why EVE is dying, because they invested all of their energy in pleasing a bunch of people every other game would have understood immediately can never be sated, save by sacrificing new players at the altar of their fragile psyches. The likes of this guy and @Gloria_Exercitus have no interest in the game’s future. _Preach_ > [@Argel\_OTF2](#): > > If it were me I would turn highsec into a fully weapons free zone, Heavily incentivise play in Low and Null for rewards that even low-level capsuleers could easily harvest, make it easier to get there while not getting gate camped, and make it so that every ship could only be targeted by 1x scram. I was with you up to 1x scram. Warp Core stabalizers being limited to 1 per ship is kinda crappy, but a 1x scram limit would mean +2 bonused ships would be uncatchable. How aboue just make scrams and other electronic warfare subject to RNG like ECM? > [@Argel\_OTF2](#): > > I’d then make it so that insurance effectively replaced the ship properly (all covered parts delivered back to a station of choosing, increasing levels of insurance to cover high cost modules). Maybe for losses in high sec, less so for low/null, but hey if CCP ups the cost of platinum insurance for this kind of service and people pay, why not right ? > [@Argel\_OTF2](#): > > Or I don’t know, just keep defending the game that has declined in player numbers consistently for the last decade. Oh they would totally prefer to see the whole ship sink, then they will just repeat the same behaviour in a new environment and kill that one too. ---
**Author:** ![Eloken\_Toralen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/eloken_toralen/32/401714_2.png) [@Eloken\_Toralen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Eloken_Toralen)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2025, 6:58am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/957 "2025-01-18T06:58:30Z")
> [@Glenduil](#): > > Troublemakers being “Anyone who dares fly into Null space”. Anyone not blue, most Null groups grow of of their Emo phase quickly. ---
**Author:** ![Spring\_Sky](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/spring_sky/32/447439_2.png) [@Spring\_Sky](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Spring_Sky)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2025, 7:35am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/958 "2025-01-18T07:35:43Z")
You mean to tell me there’s no goth baddies in null-sec? That’s it I’m staying in highsec forever. @Eloken_Toralen ---
**Author:** ![Zaera\_Keena](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zaera_keena/32/449938_2.png) [@Zaera\_Keena](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zaera_Keena)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2025, 11:45am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/959 "2025-01-18T11:45:32Z")
> [@MB\_ThePhotographer](#): > > being able to do so. Yes, but they pay a sub, so CCP must bend over backwards for them. ---
**Author:** ![Aiko\_Danuja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aiko_danuja/32/481237_2.png) [@Aiko\_Danuja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aiko_Danuja)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2025, 1:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/962 "2025-01-18T13:40:39Z")
Your opinion of the game would be more relevant if there were any evidence whatsoever that you actually play the game at all. ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2025, 1:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/963 "2025-01-18T13:40:42Z")
> [@Gloria\_Exercitus](#): > > as most of them are **absolute** statements, which means I only have to find ONE counter example to disprove you. Gosh, if _only_ I had thought ahead, and put in some sort of qualifier statement, knowing that there’s always some idiot comes along saying “Hey you made statements about wide trends but I have one specific counterexample in mind so everything you said is therefore wrong”. Oh wait, I did! > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > In general, of course. And I guess you struggled with the proper quote you got wrong too: > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > People only PvP when they both profit from it and are almost guaranteed a win And that’s the one you used as your “counter-example” to “prove my **absolute** statements” wrong. But oh look, you got _that_ wrong too! > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > In general, of course. There are players who say they don’t _care_ about profit, they just want a ‘good fight’, and they cover all their income needs with a few Plex purchases or whatever. Well, don’t worry. It was obvious from the moment you started typing that you were going to chicken out. I guess a high-sec ‘PvP’ ‘warrior’ with a killboard full of weak targets couldn’t really be expected to _risk_ 5 bill in a fair fight. That would be so out of character. ---
**Author:** ![Aiko\_Danuja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aiko_danuja/32/481237_2.png) [@Aiko\_Danuja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aiko_Danuja)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2025, 1:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/964 "2025-01-18T13:41:27Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > a high-sec ‘PvP’ ‘warrior’ with a killboard full of weak targets What kind of targets are on YOUR killboard? 🤔 ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2025, 1:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/965 "2025-01-18T13:48:29Z")
> [@Eloken\_Toralen](#): > > > [@Bladewise](#): > > > > The PvP nerfs started in 2016 and haven’t stopped since. > > I must have blinked and missed it. Yeah man, you did. You missed that Forsaken Fortress nerf where the poor PvPers were forced to go shoot trillions worth of citadels. And that Warp Stab nerf where now they don’t get the thrill of thinking their target might escape. And that Resistance nerf that means the fights are less challenging and over quicker. And Blackout, that was a harsh one too. It’s just nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf. I feel bad for those guys, I really do. ---
**Author:** ![Gloria\_Exercitus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gloria_exercitus/32/509735_2.png) [@Gloria\_Exercitus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gloria_Exercitus)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2025, 1:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/966 "2025-01-18T13:58:57Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > Gosh, if _only_ I had thought ahead, and put in some sort of qualifier statement, knowing that there’s always some idiot comes along saying “Hey you made statements about wide trends but I have one specific counterexample in mind so everything you said is therefore wrong”. And you think that merely adding ‘In general…’ makes your _absolute_ statements _general_ ones ?? > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > And I guess you struggled with the proper quote you got wrong too: Nope…I only _needed_ half the quote…i.e “People only PvP when they both profit…” because in case you’ve never done basic kindergarten maths _both_ includes two people so I only need to make the case for _one_ of them to disprove your statement about both. Duh. > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > a high-sec ‘PvP’ ‘warrior’ with a killboard full of weak targets One of my chars got two kills in null only yesterday. Look…here is total kills, total losses, total ISK killed, total ISK lost…for all my chars. Oh…that’s 2.7 Trillion in case you can’t do big numbers… ![EVE](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/8/0/d/80d9de25bfb814ec348c173018891ace8522e418.jpeg) Meanwhile the char you are posting on has one kill in 2017 and you want to lecture me on PvP warriors ? ---
**Author:** ![Zaera\_Keena](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zaera_keena/32/449938_2.png) [@Zaera\_Keena](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zaera_Keena)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2025, 2:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/967 "2025-01-18T14:18:41Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > where the poor PvPers What happened? You can tell Zaera. Somebody gank your **Ibis** or something? ---
**Author:** ![Aallin\_Gicquet](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aallin_gicquet/32/510703_2.png) [@Aallin\_Gicquet](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aallin_Gicquet)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2025, 6:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/968 "2025-01-18T18:15:16Z")
![download](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/d/c/3/dc3745421b84a524083b0fcea539353779760313.png) ---
**Author:** ![MB\_ThePhotographer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mb_thephotographer/32/373722_2.png) [@MB\_ThePhotographer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/MB_ThePhotographer)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2025, 1:03am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/971 "2025-01-19T01:03:18Z")
> [@Ax\_l\_Thorne](#): > > It’s very much like the parasitic life cycle of malaria. You do have a way with words good Sir! 🤣 > [@Zaera\_Keena](#): > > CCP must bend over backwards for them. I still blame the whales, but that’s just me. > [@Max\_Deveron](#): > > you forgot about HIllmar, the CEO…he is still running the store. Is that helping? [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580.md?page=39) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580.md?page=41)