# What is Causing EVE to Die? **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [November 29, 2024, 7:27am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580 "2024-11-29T07:27:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 44
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2025, 3:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/1056 "2025-01-21T15:15:38Z")
> [@Chewytowel\_Haklar](#): > > If the issue is most people play in high sec and they’re leaving cause all they want to do is rat in safety and mine then perhaps the game gave them the wrong impression. Well, that _isn’t_ the issue. But perhaps you should play a bit, and in high sec, not surrounded and protected by your 100+ Goon fleets and blue donut umbrella. Also, judging from your KB… perhaps you should risk something larger than sub-10 million ISK T1 ships before you start start assuming that “total destruction is the future of EVE”. Because that really _would_ result in destruction. Of EVE and CCP. > [@Chewytowel\_Haklar](#): > > Out with the old and in with the new. Yes, but the “old” is “easy safe destruction in high sec” and the “new”, well, CCP’s never quite gotten around to inventing that yet. But they need to. > [@Chewytowel\_Haklar](#): > > This game lives or dies not based on the pve content but the content created by the players and their willingness to take part in it. The pve is a mere vehicle for pvp content. It’s an oft-repeated statement by kill-junkies, but it turns out to be completely untrue. Multiple, proven examples show that when PvP is more highly encouraged or threatened, player participation drops. When PvP is cut back, player participation increases. It would be far more accurate to say “PvP is the nuisance most EVE players are willing to put up with or work around, in order to accomplish their PvE goals.” ---
**Author:** ![Zaera\_Keena](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zaera_keena/32/449938_2.png) [@Zaera\_Keena](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zaera_Keena)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2025, 3:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/1057 "2025-01-21T15:32:08Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > With all the flagging Oh that will be Mr Freespeach You are free to say whatever you want aslong as you agree with him… ---
**Author:** ![Glenduil](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/glenduil/32/501812_2.png) [@Glenduil](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Glenduil)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2025, 3:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/1058 "2025-01-21T15:45:32Z")
> [@Zaera\_Keena](#): > > You are free to say whatever you want aslong as you agree with Zaera… fixed it for you ---
**Author:** ![Zaera\_Keena](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zaera_keena/32/449938_2.png) [@Zaera\_Keena](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zaera_Keena)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2025, 3:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/1059 "2025-01-21T15:49:13Z")
Clever boy - your training is going very well. ---
**Author:** ![Gloria\_Exercitus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gloria_exercitus/32/509735_2.png) [@Gloria\_Exercitus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gloria_Exercitus)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2025, 3:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/1060 "2025-01-21T15:53:54Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > This is a key issue in the challenges EVE faces in keeping members. High-sec cowards grabbing cheap and easy kills with no risk constantly try to push the discussion towards “If you don’t PvP (but they really mean ‘gank’) your opinion is invalid”, “EVE is all about the PvP”, “high sec kills are vital to the economy”, and “without easy high sec PvP your PvE would be worth nothing”. > > All false, all proven wrong many times. Gosh…this is absolutely textbook setting up of straw man and then demolishing it. > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > EVE can and should be harsh and challenging. And that is textbook speaking with forked tongue. Whining about how harsh EVE is with one fork of tongue…whilst stating it ‘should’ be harsh with the other. ---
**Author:** ![Gloria\_Exercitus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gloria_exercitus/32/509735_2.png) [@Gloria\_Exercitus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gloria_Exercitus)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2025, 4:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/1061 "2025-01-21T16:03:42Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > It would be far more accurate to say “PvP is the nuisance most EVE players are willing to put up with or work around, in order to accomplish their PvE goals.” And having one killboard loss in 2017 makes you an expert on PvP ? Heck, I mean I’ve reached the top of Botley Hill…850 feet…in my car. I am quite sure that qualifies me to climb Everest and K2 on a skateboard. ---
**Author:** ![Zaera\_Keena](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zaera_keena/32/449938_2.png) [@Zaera\_Keena](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zaera_Keena)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2025, 4:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/1062 "2025-01-21T16:34:27Z")
Don’t forget to get the number of a nepalese carry out for your meals. They accept GPS coordinates for delivery. ---
**Author:** ![Glenduil](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/glenduil/32/501812_2.png) [@Glenduil](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Glenduil)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2025, 5:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/1063 "2025-01-21T17:11:25Z")
Wait… did you just compare pvp in high sec (the easiest no risk pvp of any game I’ve ever played) to climbing mount everest? Lol!!! 😆 That’s funny!!! ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2025, 5:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/1064 "2025-01-21T17:15:43Z")
> [@Gloria\_Exercitus](#): > > _Actual_ member count for Wrecking Machine is 67…only 13 of whom have logged in more recently than a month ago. Look, I get that numbers and reading comprehension aren’t really your thing. And I think it’s very brave of you to continue to struggle with these things despite your many challenges. So I’ll try to keep this very simple so you can follow along. The post you’re referring to is talking about wardec numbers. Wrecking Machine conducts wars as an alliance, not as a stand-alone corp. So we count the members of the corps in the _alliance_, not of one corp. You even point this out yourself - although you seem to miss the meaning of it (typical of you): > [@Gloria\_Exercitus](#): > > Wrecking Machine is itself an amalgam of 15 or so corps. > [@Gloria\_Exercitus](#): > > The point being that simply presenting ‘385 members’ is _wrong_. So here’s the membership of the alliance that fights the wars: 16 Common Ground 56 Belt Raider Inc. 10 Permaband 15 Absolute Order III 7 Comfortably.Numb 4 South Pacific 12 Forsaken Fortress 67 Absolute Order IX 183 Dark-Rising 15 UK Freedom Fighters * * * 385 members in alliance There, you see how that works now? You’re welcome! > [@Gloria\_Exercitus](#): > > You totally fail to take into account Gosh, it’s almost like it’s not worth tracking and categorizing every kill from 6 groups across 10 years. If only I had thought to point out that the data wasn’t reliable and was only an indicator of the general scope of the issue… Oh wait! I did! > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > Keep in mind these aren’t great numbers - membership changes, padding kills, MTU kills etc. But it gives an idea of the scope of the issue. You really do need to work on your ability to understand and follow more than one sentence at a time. Or, frankly, even complete sentences by themselves, as you showed with the whole “both parties profit” mis-read. You keep trying your very hardest to prove actual facts ‘wrong’, and only succeed in showing how little grasp you have of EVE workings. You disagreed with my conclusion that one happy ganker = dozens to hundreds of unhappy targets. So you should make your case, and back it up with numbers, that the average high-sec ganker and wardec members participate in fewer than a dozen cheap easy kills. Otherwise, it sure looks like part of “what’s causing EVE to die” is that tiny fraction of the player base that’s only happy when they’re “mining salt” from easy targets in the starter area of the game. ---
**Author:** ![Chewytowel\_Haklar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/chewytowel_haklar/32/420292_2.png) [@Chewytowel\_Haklar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Chewytowel_Haklar)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2025, 5:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/1065 "2025-01-21T17:58:35Z")
I can see the salt is still flowing and here I was fearing the end of EVE Online. Looks like everything appears to be in functioning order. ---
**Author:** ![Gloria\_Exercitus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gloria_exercitus/32/509735_2.png) [@Gloria\_Exercitus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gloria_Exercitus)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2025, 9:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/1066 "2025-01-21T21:38:12Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > Look, I get that numbers and reading comprehension aren’t really your thing. Ah…your textbook example of straw man is now followed by a textbook example of ad hominem. > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > The post you’re referring to is talking about wardec numbers. Wrecking Machine conducts wars as an alliance, not as a stand-alone corp. So we count the members of the corps in the _alliance_, not of one corp. And now you’re trying to tell me how many members there are in a group I’ve flown with 100 times _and you’ve never flown with at all_. This is similar to your lecturing everyone about PvP despite only having one kb record in 2017. In _fact_, the most recent ‘pending tears’ list for WM, which covers 3 months of activity, has just 31 members in it. Fleets in the past year have been lucky to have 20 members in them. I know…_I was there_…you weren’t. > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > Gosh, it’s almost like it’s not worth tracking and categorizing every kill from 6 groups across 10 years. If only I had thought to point out that the data wasn’t reliable and was only an indicator of the general scope of the issue… > > Oh wait! I did! I must have missed it in my desire to escape the endless spew of logically fallacious nonsense that erupts from your keyboard…and your notion that ‘general scope’ includes asserting that WM kills is 58,000 but not mentioning that almost half of that is lowsec solo kills by one member…lol ! Gosh…if you can get stuff only 50% right then you really ought to be an economist ! You just trot out ‘data’ with no real nuance whatever, and you think one line of lawyerspeak allows you to endlessly use said ‘data’ as factual. Never mind that when the nuances _are_ applied your ‘data’ is actually way off reality. > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > You disagreed with my conclusion that one happy ganker = dozens to hundreds of unhappy targets Oh for God’s sake. EVE is _full_ of people with way more kills than losses. That is the very nature of the frikin game ! If you’re gonna prevent anyone ever being unhappy then the servers might as well be switched off now. ---
**Author:** ![Gloria\_Exercitus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gloria_exercitus/32/509735_2.png) [@Gloria\_Exercitus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gloria_Exercitus)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2025, 9:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/1067 "2025-01-21T21:43:09Z")
> [@Glenduil](#): > > Wait… did you just compare pvp in high sec (the easiest no risk pvp of any game I’ve ever played) to climbing mount everest? Lol!!! 😆 > > That’s funny!!! It _would_ be funny…if Genduil’s Everest attempt had even reached base camp 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Aiko\_Danuja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aiko_danuja/32/481237_2.png) [@Aiko\_Danuja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aiko_Danuja)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2025, 9:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/1068 "2025-01-21T21:44:21Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > High-sec cowards grabbing cheap and easy kills with no risk 🙄 ---
**Author:** ![Glenduil](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/glenduil/32/501812_2.png) [@Glenduil](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Glenduil)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2025, 9:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/1069 "2025-01-21T21:53:59Z")
I have never been to Everest. I have been to China though as well as a great many other countries around the world. ---
**Author:** ![Zaera\_Keena](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zaera_keena/32/449938_2.png) [@Zaera\_Keena](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zaera_Keena)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2025, 10:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/1070 "2025-01-21T22:03:40Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > happy ganker = dozens to hundreds of unhappy targets Actually this is not true. Gankees generally say GF in local after a gank and thank their ganker for taking the time out of their busy schedule to gank them. The ganker then offers the gankee a mining permit and advice on how not to be ganked in future, referring them to the New Halaima Code of Conduct. As Aiko Danuja so rightly states, they are liberated from their worst instincts. In this way, they can be molded into actual people, worthy of joining the community of EVE. By being ganked and introduced to the New Halaima code of conduct, they are provided with purpose, dignity, structure, order, guidance, leadership, and submission. Conclusion : Happy Ganker = dozens to hundreds of **happy** targets. ---
**Author:** ![Gloria\_Exercitus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gloria_exercitus/32/509735_2.png) [@Gloria\_Exercitus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gloria_Exercitus)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2025, 10:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/1071 "2025-01-21T22:21:48Z")
> [@Zaera\_Keena](#): > > As Aiko Danuja so rightly states, they are liberated from their worst instincts. In this way, they can be molded into actual people, worthy of joining the community of EVE. Well, there may be some tongue in cheek there, but in a sense it is actually true. Being ganked as a noob was the best thing that happened to me. But that is often something one can only see retrospectively. I very much doubt I’d have survived 3 years as a miner…I’d be bored stiff _and would most definitely have left by now_. Ganking shifted my path and saved me. And that is something people like Kezrai totally fail to grasp. She’s under a mentality where every gank causes people to leave, and none cause people to stay. Which is totally false. ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2025, 11:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/1072 "2025-01-21T23:37:10Z")
> [@Gloria\_Exercitus](#): > > She’s under a mentality where every gank causes people to leave, and none cause people to stay. Which is totally false. Well, you get all your other facts wrong, so it’s no surprise you got this one wrong as well. But you might try quoting me on these things you _think_ I’m saying. Because your reading comprehension and EVE understanding leaves quite a bit to be desired. Here’s a small example: > [@Gloria\_Exercitus](#): > > _Actual_ member count for Wrecking Machine is 67 I literally already rolled out the whole set of numbers for you, and you _still_ tried to deny it. Here’s a hot tip for you: Wrecking Machine is an alliance of 12 corps. **One** of those corps is Absolute Order IX, which you’re a member of. **Absolute Order IX** is a single corp, with **67** members. Wrecking Machine is an **alliance** , with 385 members. Are you seeing the difference now? > [@Gloria\_Exercitus](#): > > And now you’re trying to tell me how many members there are in a group I’ve flown with 100 times _and you’ve never flown with at all_. If you could get _anything_ right at all, even something as simple as the difference between your corp, and **the alliance** your corp is _in_, then I wouldn’t need to tell you these things. Please, just take a small break from all this frantic flailing around you’re doing trying to prove simple, black and white facts wrong… and take a breather. Take the time to read and think about the things you’re saying. You’ll find that the issues about what is driving players away from EVE become much clearer once you’re able to understand a few simple facts. And basic math. And, you know, words. ---
**Author:** ![Gloria\_Exercitus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gloria_exercitus/32/509735_2.png) [@Gloria\_Exercitus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gloria_Exercitus)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2025, 12:11am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/1073 "2025-01-22T00:11:49Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > Are you seeing the difference now? No…because you are _utterly dishonest_ with the way you mis-represent data. You add up the numbers as if every member were taking part in every fleet…when even at the height of the Finanar war when AO joined WM there were not 385 man WM fleets. Most of those ‘385 members’ are not even active any more ( hey…it doesn’t suit your biased narrative that PvP-ers also leave EVE, does it ). The average fleet has been around 20-30 members…usually the same people. In fact _most_ of the ‘members’ don’t take part in any WM fleets. The fact that a person happens to be in the alliance does NOT mean they take part in WM station bashing activities. That’s the bit _you_ singularly fail to grasp. Once again…I have _been_ on these fleets…_.you haven’t_. I was on a fleet recently where we struggled to get 6 members. Perhaps you can explain where the other 379 were ! And then there’s the matter of ‘kills’…where you dishonestly present ’ 738,000 much less happy targets ’ as the sum of all the kills of those alliances. **That could not be more dishonest !** It totally ignores the fact that a huge portion of the kills of those alliances is in lowsec and other PvP that has nothing to do with highsec ganking or bashing. In fact that is precisely what all those WM and other members that never join the highsec fleets are doing. You also _totally fail to grasp_ that any activity my WM alt does for AO In lowsec or null will _also_ be recorded as a Wrecking Machine ‘kill’…even though it wasn’t a WM operation…as that alt never leaves WM. No…you didn’t think of that did you. You just added up every single ‘kill’ of those alliances and presented it as if every single one was ganking or station bashing. You are obsessed with presenting raw ‘data’ as if it proved some point. Again and again it is pointed out to you that your raw data does not represent what you think it does. But you just blindly carry on regardless. ---
**Author:** ![MB\_ThePhotographer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mb_thephotographer/32/373722_2.png) [@MB\_ThePhotographer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/MB_ThePhotographer)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2025, 1:17am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/1074 "2025-01-22T01:17:15Z")
Wow! I thought I would get a long winded explanation of the history of the game? I guess it’s a worn out subject at this point. ---
**Author:** ![Bladewise](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/bladewise/32/394387_2.png) [@Bladewise](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Bladewise)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 5:22am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/1075 "2025-01-23T05:22:39Z")
They made plenty of mistakes. I mean simply having a web alt for your freighter is enough to stop basically all ganks. Even at that, like you say, not carrying too expensive of a cargo would do it too. In the case of literally every other ship you can simply MWD+cloak to avoid getting ganked. I say all that to say: If you’re getting ganked in HS, it is 100% your own fault. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580.md?page=43) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580.md?page=45)