# What is Causing EVE to Die? **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [November 29, 2024, 7:27am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580 "2024-11-29T07:27:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Uriel\_Murk\_Udoria](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/uriel_murk_udoria/32/421974_2.png) [@Uriel\_Murk\_Udoria](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Uriel_Murk_Udoria)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2024, 10:30pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/144 "2024-12-13T22:30:59Z")
Dying cause of ‘pro’ Eve players trying to be e famous. Especially on the forum. ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2024, 10:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/145 "2024-12-13T22:56:22Z")
> [@Gloria\_Exercitus](#): > > That’s the source of most of the forum arguments. Actually the source of most forum arguments is the attitude of people who demand that _other_ players should play the game in ways that benefit or entertain themselves. “_ **I** _ enjoy the game _this_ way, therefore everyone else should too.” And who refuse to accept that other players have valid reasons to play in other ways, and/or that CCP may have valid reasons to develop the game in other directions. It’s even moreso the case when these same people try to deny all the facts and history, not only of EVE but of 30+ years of MMO gaming. And when they don’t understand game design or player motivations. But of course, a lot of it is just people who want drama and someone to argue with. After all, if the game isn’t providing adequate conflict for you, you can always try to stir some up on the forums. ---
**Author:** ![Aisha\_Katalen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aisha_katalen/32/387724_2.png) [@Aisha\_Katalen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aisha_Katalen)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2024, 11:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/146 "2024-12-13T23:12:27Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > is the attitude of people who demand that _other_ players should play the game in ways that benefit or entertain themselves. But you’re doing the exact same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2024, 11:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/147 "2024-12-13T23:20:54Z")
> [@Aisha\_Katalen](#): > > But you’re doing the exact same thing. In what way? I don’t say people shouldn’t gank, or shouldn’t blow up other people, or shouldn’t wardec. I only point out when CCP and players are engaging with these things in ways that actually harm the game. Or at least, do not encourage more players to play more. Wardecs aren’t working now, and never have, actually. You and others say “Hey the current system _forces_ megablobs to gang up on weak targets”, but in fact that’s what wardecs have _always_ done, for the most part. And in fact that’s exactly what was happening _before_ the current system was implemented, and CCP published the numbers on that. And if I had to guess, I’d suspect that CCP put the current system in place hoping that wardecs would sort of quietly fade away and be less of a problem. That’s not exactly what I’d call an optimal solution. CCP could do better, but only by really understanding how game mechanics impact player behavior, and how things could be structured to make things more engageable. And by **not** ignoring what 30 years of MMO history and the death of nearly all the “hardcore full loot PvP MMO” attempts over the years are telling them. **If you code a game that people don’t want to play, they won’t play it.** It’s that simple. If you want a game that has _some_ hardcore elements and still maintains interest to the non-hardcore crowd, then you’d better shove aside the wishful thinking that “we’ll just _force_ the non-PvPers to accept PvP” and do some serious creative thinking. ---
**Author:** ![Aisha\_Katalen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aisha_katalen/32/387724_2.png) [@Aisha\_Katalen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aisha_Katalen)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2024, 11:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/148 "2024-12-13T23:27:48Z")
“the numbers go down for reasons that suit my narrative, not that I have any facts on this. I really care about those numbers because it helps me defend my preferred play styles, that’s not virtue signalling nor gas lighting at all. Won’t you think of the newbies”. Got it. ---
**Author:** ![Zaera\_Keena](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zaera_keena/32/449938_2.png) [@Zaera\_Keena](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zaera_Keena)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2024, 11:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/149 "2024-12-13T23:50:33Z")
> [@Aisha\_Katalen](#): > > think of the newbies Veteran alts ---
**Author:** ![Aiko\_Danuja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aiko_danuja/32/481237_2.png) [@Aiko\_Danuja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aiko_Danuja)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2024, 11:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/150 "2024-12-13T23:54:59Z")
What’s it like to dedicate your EvE career to writing these long essays about how CCP better do something about PvP or else? ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2024, 12:18am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/151 "2024-12-14T00:18:14Z")
> [@Aisha\_Katalen](#): > > the numbers go down for reasons that suit my narrative, not that I have any facts on this. I understand. You assumed I was talking about nerfing PvP, even though I never said anything about that. Then you assumed I was trying to get CCP to change EVE to ‘my way’ of play, but you couldn’t find anywhere I did that, either. So instead you resorted to pulling a completely imaginary statement out of the air to represent my argument, one which is laughably wrong. This is blatant straw-manning of the cheapest variety. But it’s OK. I realize people get defensive when their errors are pointed out publicly. No biggie. As for facts, not sure how you missed it, but there was an entire round of talks and dev blogs in 2018-2019 where CCP discussed just how bad the wardec numbers looked for player retention. They **also** pointed out exactly what I stated above - that PvP in MMOs almost always results in a very small number of nonconsensual-PvP players targetting and victimizing a much larger number of casual or PvE players. To the detriment of the game. Since you seem to have missed all that, here are some links for you: [CSM 13 Winter Summit](https://assets.ctfassets.net/7lhcm73ukv5p/4tSKkWWjRe0yagAAYgOUYC/99b4c9be6477bafab52de5b85b786ff5/CSM_13_Winter_Summit_Minutes.pdf) You may want to start with page 8, which starts off with this header: **In the EVE Leadership meeting the CSM was presented with numbers resulting from research into the state of war declarations in EVE and those numbers quite starkly showed how asymmetric the situation is, and how war declarations allow a small number of players to negatively affect a huge number of people, with low risk. These numbers may be discussed further by CCP at a later date.** More facts. straight from CCP: > **[War, War Sometimes Changes | EVE Online](https://www.eveonline.com/news/view/war-war-sometimes-changes)** > > Check out this dev blog for more information on the next stage in the overhaul of the war declaration system! More discussion of the value of full-loot PvP in MMOs, with numbers included: [![](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/7/5/4/7543bc02c32e97d537e4fb13ccc2793d6953dd96.jpeg "Why Hardcore Full Loot PVP MMO's Fail") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34RPwDfLpKg) (See the 2nd comment, by ashwynnnewkirk, for a very accurate assessment of the trend of full-loot PvP in MMOs) And for multiple opinion statements referencing the historical trends of full-loot PvPs: [https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/x7vyd5/why\_does\_nobody\_make\_a\_world\_pvp\_mmorpg\_anymore/](https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/x7vyd5/why_does_nobody_make_a_world_pvp_mmorpg_anymore/) What it amounts to, is that yes, I have actual facts, numbers and references to back up my opinion. You have made-up statements with nothing at all behind them. I understand that your preference is for PvP to be made as accessible as possible in EVE, and that’s fine. But your notions are simplistic and won’t work, and they won’t work in the same ways that 30 years of attempts at hardcore PvP MMOs have **shown** they won’t work. If people want various PvP mechanics to work in EVE, they need to get past trying to _force_ the 3/4 of the player base that _isn’t_ PvP oriented into (losing) PvP. And start thinking of new ways and options to give them some desire to participate, rather than just leaving the game. ---
**Author:** ![Gloria\_Exercitus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gloria_exercitus/32/509735_2.png) [@Gloria\_Exercitus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gloria_Exercitus)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2024, 12:30am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/152 "2024-12-14T00:30:01Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > Actually the source of most forum arguments is the attitude of people who demand that _other_ players should play the game in ways that benefit or entertain themselves. > > “_ **I** _ enjoy the game _this_ way, therefore everyone else should too.” > > And who refuse to accept that other players have valid reasons to play in other ways, and/or that CCP may have valid reasons to develop the game in other directions. That is totally self-contradictory nonsense. If other players have valid reasons to play in other ways, that _includes_ impinging on those who want to play the game ‘my way’. Ironically the very people demanding that '_other_ players should play the game in ways that benefit or entertain themselves ’ are the ones going out of their way to curtail the options of other players. You have the whole thing totally bass ackwards. ---
**Author:** ![Zaera\_Keena](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zaera_keena/32/449938_2.png) [@Zaera\_Keena](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zaera_Keena)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2024, 12:36am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/153 "2024-12-14T00:36:57Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > Then you assumed I was…Bla Bla Bla… > . > So Instead you…Bla Bla Bla > . > As for facts…Bla Bla Bla > . > Since you seem to…Bla Bla Bla ![](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/e/8/5/e8582d552090a046215fa6503cf8115695dd9e1d.gif) ---
**Author:** ![Aisha\_Katalen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aisha_katalen/32/387724_2.png) [@Aisha\_Katalen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aisha_Katalen)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2024, 12:37am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/154 "2024-12-14T00:37:46Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > You may want to start with page 8 That’s 2018, when they already fcked up the whole wardec system. It got changed the first time around 2011-2012, THAT is when they should have done it right but didn’t. Also, just because “numbers go down” doesn’t mean it shouldn’t happen because this whole idea of “we have to make the game for everyone” is silly, no one makes games like that. You use it because it suits you, don’t even pretend otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Gloria\_Exercitus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gloria_exercitus/32/509735_2.png) [@Gloria\_Exercitus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gloria_Exercitus)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2024, 12:39am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/155 "2024-12-14T00:39:40Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > Wardecs aren’t working now, and never have, actually. _Most_ of my overall 1500 kills, and around 10 billion ISK in loot, come from wardecs. What’s ‘not working’ about that ? The system works. The discussion was about wardecs being made easier for smaller corps and even individuals and thus facilitating more PvP. ---
**Author:** ![Zaera\_Keena](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zaera_keena/32/449938_2.png) [@Zaera\_Keena](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zaera_Keena)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2024, 12:43am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/156 "2024-12-14T00:43:14Z")
> [@Gloria\_Exercitus](#): > > _Most_ of my overall 1500 kills… come from wardecs You sure about that ? Were you not an F1 Monkey ---
**Author:** ![Aiko\_Danuja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aiko_danuja/32/481237_2.png) [@Aiko\_Danuja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aiko_Danuja)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2024, 12:53am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/157 "2024-12-14T00:53:44Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > they need to…start thinking of new ways and options to give [carebears like me] some desire to participate, rather than just leaving the game. You’ve provided no evidence that EvE needs these players. They are free to quit. ---
**Author:** ![Gloria\_Exercitus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gloria_exercitus/32/509735_2.png) [@Gloria\_Exercitus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gloria_Exercitus)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2024, 12:54am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/158 "2024-12-14T00:54:15Z")
Yes but the value of loot ( quantum cores, etc ) would be shared out every month or so. ---
**Author:** ![MB\_ThePhotographer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mb_thephotographer/32/373722_2.png) [@MB\_ThePhotographer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/MB_ThePhotographer)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2024, 1:32am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/159 "2024-12-14T01:32:11Z")
I did a quick search for the statement on Google and found nothing? I know as well as many others here do that, he indeed did say this. So, I would have to ask the help of the forum members to help track down that statement. ---
**Author:** ![Spacetramp\_Drago](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/spacetramp_drago/32/480922_2.png) [@Spacetramp\_Drago](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Spacetramp_Drago)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2024, 8:08am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/160 "2024-12-14T08:08:59Z")
> [@Kaely\_Tanniss](#): > > Typical internet troll. He’s correct, I stopped reading at your first suggestion. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Deveron](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/max_deveron/32/245870_2.png) [@Max\_Deveron](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Max_Deveron)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2024, 10:49am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/161 "2024-12-14T10:49:02Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > If people want various PvP mechanics to work in EVE, they need to get past trying to _force_ the 3/4 of the player base that _isn’t_ PvP oriented into (losing) PvP. Quoting for reference… In my experience these past couple of years…many players, some returning and others trying out the game for the first time… They simply want to ride the coat tails of those operating Corporations or Alliances. They want moons to mine…and there fore upwells…but do not want to do anything to defend them. They want to live in an ISK and/or LP tax free organization…but want SRP programs, Corp insurance policies, some one to pay for Corp Offices and Alliance maintenance fees without coming out of their wallets. They want 24/7 PvP anti-gank patrols on gates, belts, anoms, etc…but dont want to support the ones that might be willing to take part in that. They want stuff cheaper than market…but they do not want to support the programs their Corporations or Alliance have in operation. They want to participate in activities that require Voice Comms…but then refuse to ever sign up to use provided Voice Communication systems, then complain they are somehow being discriminated against. When they get told no, or toe the line… They cry, whine, have a tantrum, act like children, attempt to start coups or rebellions, and/or become the toxic player they accuse others of being. We see this all across the EvE landscape from Highsec to Nullsec, and sometimes the PvPr’s, the real EvE players that are playing day in and day out just get sick of it all. It is not about forcing non-PvP players to do PvP, it is about educating them upon the reality of the game, and that reality is the PvPr’s control the markets and flow of the game itself. Gankers have Industry divisions…yes they mine and build stuff, sometimes those retrievers some are so fond of that they blow up all the time. Wardeccrs have upwells that those whom despise them have no clue they are supporting financially the very ones they hate. or in 1 particular case almost all the PoCo’s in HS. Nullsec has its thing, and its tendrils spread through out the entire game. What a lot of these “players” fail to understand, is that EvE at its very core is a game of War, Politics, and downright economics…things that are deep rooted from EvE’s very first years of operation. These non-PvPr’s need to understand this, otherwise in one way or another they are just a cog in the grand scheme of things and will be treated as such. No one seriously says you cant play this game solo, or casually. But then such are on the outside still looking in wondering why they are not having any fun. There is no Right way to play EvE, but there is a Wrong way to play. ---
**Author:** ![Smarter\_ThanU](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/smarter_thanu/32/436079_2.png) [@Smarter\_ThanU](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Smarter_ThanU)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2024, 11:00am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/162 "2024-12-14T11:00:03Z")
> [@Gloria\_Exercitus](#): > > What’s ‘not working’ about that ? Ask the people that lost 10b to sensless WD’s. Oh wait, they probably quit… ---
**Author:** ![Zaera\_Keena](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zaera_keena/32/449938_2.png) [@Zaera\_Keena](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zaera_Keena)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2024, 11:04am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/163 "2024-12-14T11:04:01Z")
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