# What is your definition of PVP?

**URL:** <https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-your-definition-of-pvp/439399>\
**Category:** General Discussion\
**Created:** [February 12, 2024, 6:33am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-your-definition-of-pvp/439399 "2024-02-12T06:33:13Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 2

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**Author:** ![Wesfahrn](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wesfahrn/32/392292_2.png) [@Wesfahrn](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wesfahrn)\
**Post date:** [February 12, 2024, 8:00am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-your-definition-of-pvp/439399/22 "2024-02-12T08:00:25Z")

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Okay then i guess claiming most people dont do PVP is propaganda and claiming most people PVP is not. Good talk 🙂

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**Author:** ![Calamity\_Unleashed](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/calamity_unleashed/32/413414_2.png) [@Calamity\_Unleashed](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Calamity_Unleashed)\
**Post date:** [February 12, 2024, 8:00am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-your-definition-of-pvp/439399/23 "2024-02-12T08:00:38Z")

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> [@Wesfahrn](#):
>
> You can judge the results and comments for yourself, the opposite of propaganda?

Nope.

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**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\
**Post date:** [February 12, 2024, 8:10am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-your-definition-of-pvp/439399/24 "2024-02-12T08:10:28Z")

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Personally I’m a big fan of the definition laid out by the contemporary Dracvladian school of player interaction. “PvP” specifically means any combat engagement between mutually-consenting combatants in a sanctioned area of space (e.g. null-sec). Anything outside of this purview is relegated to the concept of non-sanctioned “PK” (player-killer/ing) niche grief-play.

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**Author:** ![Dyver\_Phycad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dyver_phycad/32/358575_2.png) [@Dyver\_Phycad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dyver_Phycad)\
**Post date:** [February 12, 2024, 9:08am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-your-definition-of-pvp/439399/25 "2024-02-12T09:08:38Z")

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Denying people fun in their space and the usage of their space.

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**Author:** ![Iceacid\_Frostpacker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/iceacid_frostpacker/32/505689_2.png) [@Iceacid\_Frostpacker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Iceacid_Frostpacker)\
**Post date:** [February 12, 2024, 9:20am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-your-definition-of-pvp/439399/26 "2024-02-12T09:20:05Z")

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Congratulations the first time I actually agree and see your message!

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**Author:** ![Uriel\_the\_Flame](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/uriel_the_flame/32/490165_2.png) [@Uriel\_the\_Flame](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Uriel_the_Flame)\
**Post date:** [February 12, 2024, 9:34am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-your-definition-of-pvp/439399/27 "2024-02-12T09:34:05Z")

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Everything.

😏 🍿 :dealwithitparrot:

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**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\
**Post date:** [February 12, 2024, 12:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-your-definition-of-pvp/439399/28 "2024-02-12T12:06:30Z")

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> [@Wesfahrn](#):
>
> Most people seem to…

Ah, your usual ‘most people’ trick where you spin a bogus narrative and argue against your own straw man.

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**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\
**Post date:** [February 12, 2024, 12:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-your-definition-of-pvp/439399/29 "2024-02-12T12:11:00Z")

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> [@Wesfahrn](#):
>
> I know some of you are going to argue that mining, industry and selling and buying on the market is PVP

Certain people generally only claim this when you use numbers and data to prove that actual PvP is a relatively small portion of EVE. Then they dust off the “everything is PvP” argument. Of course, these are generally the same people that complain that CCP has “neutered” PvP, and that “carebears” are “afraid” of PvP, but logical consistency isn’t really what they’re about.

PvP was originally just the short form for “PvP _combat_”. You can re-define “player vs player” to suit any current circumstance, but lacking an adjusted definition, it refers to **combat** only, not markets or mining or posting insulting references to one’s ancestry.

So ganking, ambushing, fleet battles, all PvP. If there’s weapons and damage involved between players, it’s PvP.

Some players, like myself, in some circumstances, refer to “real” PvP: that’s to differentiate actual combat from slaughtering sheep. Because for one thing, when one of the targets doesn’t even have a weapon, that’s not “combat”. However it’s still unquestionably PvP, just not something one should be overly bragging about their “combat” skills, or how tough and dangerous they are.

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**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\
**Post date:** [February 12, 2024, 12:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-your-definition-of-pvp/439399/30 "2024-02-12T12:20:58Z")

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> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#):
>
> Some players, like myself, in some circumstances, refer to “real” PvP: that’s to differentiate actual combat from slaughtering sheep. Because for one thing, when one of the targets doesn’t even have a weapon, that’s not “combat”.

That’s just another straw man in a thread full of straw men. PvP literally means _player versus player_. That does not inherently imply anything about anyone shooting back. If a player takes any action ‘versus’ another player, that is _by definition_ PvP !

You can’t have something real-er than the actual definition. ‘Real PvP’ is a complete oxymoron, as by definition all PvP is ‘real’ PvP.

I wrote this post using ‘ **real** letters of the alphabet’ 🙂

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**Author:** ![Calamity\_Unleashed](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/calamity_unleashed/32/413414_2.png) [@Calamity\_Unleashed](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Calamity_Unleashed)\
**Post date:** [February 12, 2024, 1:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-your-definition-of-pvp/439399/31 "2024-02-12T13:34:47Z")

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> [@Altara\_Zemara](#):
>
> That’s just another straw man in a thread full of straw men. PvP literally means _player versus player_. That does not inherently imply anything about anyone shooting back

I don’t think it’s a strawman. The _v_ in PvP means _against_. When I operate a ship to explore, travel or mine I don’t do those activities _against_ anyone, I’m just traveling/exploring/mining dude, I’m not _against_ anyone when I do those things but the game being what it is, hek, shoot anything that moves and ask questions later, right? F-it, it’s just a game anyway.

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**Author:** ![Wesfahrn](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wesfahrn/32/392292_2.png) [@Wesfahrn](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wesfahrn)\
**Post date:** [February 12, 2024, 1:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-your-definition-of-pvp/439399/32 "2024-02-12T13:35:39Z")

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Cambridge Dictionary definition of Versus

> one team or person competing against another

But i guess it also means something else

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**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\
**Post date:** [February 12, 2024, 1:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-your-definition-of-pvp/439399/33 "2024-02-12T13:51:10Z")

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> [@Calamity\_Unleashed](#):
>
> The _v_ in PvP means _against_. When I operate a ship to explore, travel or mine I don’t do those activities _against_ anyone, I’m just traveling/exploring/mining dude, I’m not _against_ anyone when I do those things but the game being what it is, hek, shoot anything that moves and ask questions later, right? F-it, it’s just a game anyway.

Well, what if the attacker in that scenario is doing it as a preventive measure because they’re concerned that you’ll attack them first? I would say that’s a reasonable concern.

I think that the _real_ issue with the “PvP” in the game is that there’s no way to signal to strangers that you’re a non-combatant. CCP needs to add some kind of feature to the game that would convey this message at a glance. They could add some kind of skin to the game that, for example, has a large decal that clearly labels you as a PvP non-threat:

![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/a/1/e/a1eefda7ebb78e963c6e74d722d8ef9c5fb68f62.png)

Or maybe there could be a large hologram floating above your ship that says **“Don’t shoot, this is a non-combatant vessel!”** They could add something to the overview as well, like a sort of player tag that says “{FRIENDLY}” before the rest of your name.

I bet this would solve most of the issues with the non-real PvP niche PK grief-play in the game. Maybe the problem all along has been that players simply _don’t know_ that they’re not supposed to shoot someone.

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**Author:** ![Uriel\_the\_Flame](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/uriel_the_flame/32/490165_2.png) [@Uriel\_the\_Flame](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Uriel_the_Flame)\
**Post date:** [February 12, 2024, 2:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-your-definition-of-pvp/439399/34 "2024-02-12T14:21:32Z")

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Is this the **`No PvP`** thread? Is it safe for @Iceacid_Frostpacker to mine here without a permit?

😏

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**Author:** ![Wes\_Wyhunnan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wes_wyhunnan/32/409400_2.png) [@Wes\_Wyhunnan](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wes_Wyhunnan)\
**Post date:** [February 12, 2024, 2:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-your-definition-of-pvp/439399/35 "2024-02-12T14:37:26Z")

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> [@Calamity\_Unleashed](#):
>
> When I operate a ship to explore, travel or mine I don’t do those activities _against_ anyone, I’m just traveling/exploring/mining dude, I’m not _against_ anyone when

Yeah but that’s just objectively not true. Let’s say I’m in a large nullsec group, and several other large nullsec groups have decided that they are going to destroy everything I have in an attempt to force me from the game. They produce thousands of battleships, caps, BCs etc and spend months trying to smash everything I have.

So I and my friends make dozens of dangerous jumps through wormholes and bubbled gates deep into enemy territory and destroy an enemy Rorq to try and slow their ship production. A poor, defenseless mining ship with nary a gun equipped, simply playing the game in peace and quiet. Is that the argument that that is NOT PvP?

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**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\
**Post date:** [February 12, 2024, 2:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-your-definition-of-pvp/439399/36 "2024-02-12T14:48:45Z")

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> [@Calamity\_Unleashed](#):
>
> I don’t think it’s a strawman. The _v_ in PvP means _against_. When I operate a ship to explore, travel or mine I don’t do those activities _against_ anyone, I’m just traveling/exploring/mining dude, I’m not _against_ anyone when I do those things but the game being what it is, hek, shoot anything that moves and ask questions later, right? F-it, it’s just a game anyway.

Yes it most definitely is a straw man. If you get a court case of ‘A versus B’ then A is attacking B and that does not automatically mean B is attacking A. So even the court system recognises ‘versus’ as one person being the plaintif or ‘attacker’ and another being the ‘defendant’. If a person gets done on a speeding charge, _it is entirely one sided_…and the defendant railing against the iniquities of capitalism and the Illuminati conspiracy run by shape shifting lizards makes zero difference.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\
**Post date:** [February 12, 2024, 3:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-your-definition-of-pvp/439399/37 "2024-02-12T15:01:39Z")

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> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#):
>
> I think that the _real_ issue with the “PvP” in the game is that there’s no way to signal to strangers that you’re a non-combatant. CCP needs to add some kind of feature to the game that would convey this message at a glance. They could add some kind of skin to the game that, for example, has a large decal that clearly labels you as a PvP non-threat:

Amusing…but you already know that’s nonsense. Undocking is _already_ consent to PvP and always has been. There is simply no such thing as ‘non consensual PvP’ in Eve. Thus there really is no problem to ‘fix’.

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**Author:** ![Max\_Deveron](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/max_deveron/32/245870_2.png) [@Max\_Deveron](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Max_Deveron)\
**Post date:** [February 12, 2024, 3:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-your-definition-of-pvp/439399/38 "2024-02-12T15:40:12Z")

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let me ask you something @Wesfahrn mr mighty agenda seeker and relative ignoramus of EvE as a whole…

If you are mining…and someone like me or my group lands…and mine any rock you are lazing or droning out from under you…and follow you every time you move to a different belt and rinse and repeat…until you leave system…is that or is that not PvP?

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**Author:** ![Vuhdo\_Rin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vuhdo_rin/32/378868_2.png) [@Vuhdo\_Rin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vuhdo_Rin)\
**Post date:** [February 12, 2024, 3:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-your-definition-of-pvp/439399/39 "2024-02-12T15:59:37Z")

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> [@Calamity\_Unleashed](#):
>
> The _v_ in PvP means _against_.

thats correct… and if youre “fighting” AGAINST other market traders because you want to have more controle about a specific part of the market … then it is AGAINST other ppl → PvP !

we all know that “normaly” PvP only means shooting other ppl … but thats per definition not correct because eve has more ways to create “wars” then only your “real” pvp !

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Io\_Koval](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/io_koval/32/282426_2.png) [@Io\_Koval](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Io_Koval)\
**Post date:** [February 12, 2024, 4:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-your-definition-of-pvp/439399/40 "2024-02-12T16:16:25Z")

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> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#):
>
> ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/a/1/e/a1eefda7ebb78e963c6e74d722d8ef9c5fb68f62.png)

I foresee a new entry into people’s bio. This would definitely stop me:

```auto
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.#######@@@@@..@@@...@..@.###.@..*@@...@@@@#######
.#######@@@@@.....@@@@@###%..@@.....(@@@@@@#######
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.........#################################........
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```

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Electric\_Meatball](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/electric_meatball/32/409595_2.png) [@Electric\_Meatball](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Electric_Meatball)\
**Post date:** [February 12, 2024, 4:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-your-definition-of-pvp/439399/41 "2024-02-12T16:32:44Z")

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Well the market hasn’t collapsed in on itself yet so I’m willing to venture out and say enough people PvP to keep things moving.

If no one is blowing stuff up, no one is buying anything, meaning no one can sell anything, meaning no one can build anything, meaning no one needs Ore that’s mined.

The EvE economic apocalypse. So by all means, go blow stuff up, maybe even me sometimes. I’ll take one for the team.

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