# What should the Republic do regarding the unrest in Amarr/Khanid? **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [December 14, 2018, 11:55am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-should-the-republic-do-regarding-the-unrest-in-amarr-khanid/126918 "2018-12-14T11:55:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Valerie\_Valate](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/valerie_valate/32/386231_2.png) [@Valerie\_Valate](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Valerie_Valate)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 2:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-should-the-republic-do-regarding-the-unrest-in-amarr-khanid/126918/22 "2018-12-14T14:47:14Z")
> [@Teinyhr](#): > > > [@Valerie\_Valate](#): > > > > destruction to the Republic worlds. > > Which would be responded in kind. Well, yes. My point was, with the current situation, the Imperial Navy can do nothing except grr and swing at anchor, because starships are ill-suited to pacifying rioting slaves on planets you wish to keep. Meanwhile the Imperial Army is tied up on suppression campaigns. But should the Republic do something in an official capacity, then suddenly the Imperial Navy has something to do - reprisal raids on Republic space infrastructure, commerce raiding against Republic shipping & their space economy, for example. And the Imperial Army would then be under pressure to end things on the ground quickly, such that offensive ground actions could be undertaken against Republic worlds. So the Republic should officially do nothing. Well, nothing except for condemning those obviously rogue elements who understandably but unsanctionedly are prolonging the planetside insurgencies. Typing slave, is unsanctionedly a word ? Not in the thesaurus you say ? Well, put it in anyway. We’ll create a new word. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 3:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-should-the-republic-do-regarding-the-unrest-in-amarr-khanid/126918/23 "2018-12-14T15:11:43Z")
Tighten sanctions. Open up trade with the State as much as possible. Use political pressure directly and through CONCORD to make slavery an economic anchor, dragging the Empire down. And buy more bullets. ---
**Author:** ![Alizabeth\_Vea](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/alizabeth_vea/32/122884_2.png) [@Alizabeth\_Vea](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Alizabeth_Vea)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 3:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-should-the-republic-do-regarding-the-unrest-in-amarr-khanid/126918/24 "2018-12-14T15:21:41Z")
> [@Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](#): > > Money, Ideology, Coercion, and Emotion. The real MICE acronym is Money, Ideology, CONSCIENCE, EGO. ---
**Author:** ![Khulan\_Ostus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/khulan_ostus/32/111092_2.png) [@Khulan\_Ostus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Khulan_Ostus)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 3:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-should-the-republic-do-regarding-the-unrest-in-amarr-khanid/126918/25 "2018-12-14T15:40:20Z")
Wouldn’t hurt to exploit this chaos for our gain. Not in some dramatic ‘let’s just blow their planets up’ nonsense but I imagine the worlds dealing with this are ripe targets for liberation moves and such to reclaim our bound brothers and sisters. There are ways to twist the knife without going full war. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 3:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-should-the-republic-do-regarding-the-unrest-in-amarr-khanid/126918/26 "2018-12-14T15:48:26Z")
Considering where the worlds in question are (in at least 2 cases, 3 jumps out of Amarr itself), there isn’t much room for ‘liberation moves’ short of full war. ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 3:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-should-the-republic-do-regarding-the-unrest-in-amarr-khanid/126918/27 "2018-12-14T15:53:19Z")
> [@Teinyhr](#): > > There is a simple solution and nobody needs to die, you’d only need to get the Amarr on board. But they won’t because they are the problem. In a similar spirit, the Matari could let go of ties to distant relatives in the Empire and focus on seeing to the needs of those who are already free. But I’m not sure either of these ideas is good for much but scoring points. The thing is, I actually think your Republic’s current stance is a pretty good one for you. Pressure’s kept up, little victories are won here and there, strategies get adjusted to account for events, long games get played by all sides, and history gets made without going and exploding it all. This seems to be an unpopular idea over there, but, I also can’t help but notice that House Sarum’s mighty popular among capsuleers over here. Maybe we’re not sophisticated analysts for policy. Maybe we’re basically a bunch of hammers seeing the whole world as a forest of nails to pound in. Maybe our national leaders would be fools to listen to us. Patience is hard and unsatisfying. That doesn’t make it a mistake. ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 4:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-should-the-republic-do-regarding-the-unrest-in-amarr-khanid/126918/28 "2018-12-14T16:25:31Z")
> [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > Patience is hard and unsatisfying. That doesn’t make it a mistake. Patience when you are slowly losing every day is a mistake, though. Patience is only a virtue when you are waiting to win in the end. ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 4:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-should-the-republic-do-regarding-the-unrest-in-amarr-khanid/126918/29 "2018-12-14T16:36:01Z")
It’s not clear to me that you’re actually losing, though, Else. It might be pretty easy to feel like you’re losing when what you’re actually doing is getting frustrated. Of course if you accept Miz and Arrendis’s suicidally moralistic argument that the Empire’s a pit of utter atrocity that must be ended at once and at all cost, you really do lose, every day. Miz doesn’t claim to be much of a strategist, though. (I won’t say the same of Arrendis, but I’m also not sure she fully believes her own rhetoric.) What’s it they say about brilliant tactics with no strategy? “The slowest way to lose?” This isn’t a conflict that’ll be helped a lot by getting highly tactical and crying “FOR THE FUTURE!” while losing track of any realistic path for getting there. ---
**Author:** ![Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mizhara_del_thul/32/486150_2.png) [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mizhara_Del_thul)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 4:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-should-the-republic-do-regarding-the-unrest-in-amarr-khanid/126918/30 "2018-12-14T16:39:53Z")
> [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > that the Empire’s a pit of utter atrocity that must be ended at once and at all cost Oooph, so close and yet swing and a miss. You are perfectly well aware that the argument is not that the Empire must end. It’s that it must be changed, and that isn’t going to happen from within, when everything within it is designed to maintain the status quo at absolutely all cost to the point of including the rest of the universe in it. That it is a pit of utter atrocity is not in question though. That is inescapable fact. Literal trillions held as slaves, woman. You are not so deficient that you can honestly argue that isn’t an atrocity. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 4:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-should-the-republic-do-regarding-the-unrest-in-amarr-khanid/126918/31 "2018-12-14T16:41:07Z")
> [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > Maybe we’re not sophisticated analysts for policy. Maybe we’re basically a bunch of hammers seeing the whole world as a forest of nails to pound in. Or _maybe_… and I know this is crazy talk… we’re _human beings_, and we have different strengths and weaknesses, instead of being some kind of homogenized paste you spread on the inside of a pod. Some of us are better as hammers, some of us are actually better as analysts. > [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > Of course if you accept Miz and Arrendis’s suicidally moralistic argument that the Empire’s a pit of utter atrocity that must be ended at once and at all cost, you really do lose, every day. I’ve never claimed the Empire must be ended at all cost. I’ve said that there is no scenario where they’re not an existential threat to literally everyone else, so long as their divine mandate exists. I’ve said they’re corrupt to the core, and evil. I’ve said it would be _good_ if what they are now were utterly destroyed. I’ve even said that at times it feels like it’d be preferable to just start the damned war already. But ‘at all cost’ is an _extremely_ broad set of carte blanche to issue. Which is kinda why I’ve not only said that there isn’t much room for ‘liberation’ in Thebeka and Alkabsi short of full-on war, but also that the Republic _shouldn’t_ use this as a pretext for war, _in this very thread where you’re presenting me as having some other position_. ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 4:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-should-the-republic-do-regarding-the-unrest-in-amarr-khanid/126918/32 "2018-12-14T16:43:25Z")
> [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > It’s not clear to me that you’re actually losing, though, Else. It might be pretty easy to feel like you’re losing when what you’re actually doing is getting frustrated. The reasoning is this: The Militia wars are, essentially, a war of attrition. Resources are used in it, by capsuleers in space, and by groundside too when extended space control makes it possible, to “win” systems and to establish control of the warzone. In a war of attrition, even if both sides lose equally, the smaller side loses more _relative to what they have_. The power balance shifts, slowly but certainly. And the Republic is much, much smaller than the Empire. Like Arrendis and Miz, I am not saying “we must fight at any cost”. But as things stand, we will have to fight, some time. And every day we stay in the status quo makes us less likely to win in the end. So let it burn. Because it _will_ burn, and the later it starts, the worse it will be. ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 5:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-should-the-republic-do-regarding-the-unrest-in-amarr-khanid/126918/33 "2018-12-14T17:01:38Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Or _maybe_ … and I know this is crazy talk… we’re _human beings_ , and we have different strengths and weaknesses, instead of being some kind of homogenized paste you spread on the inside of a pod. Some of us are better as hammers, some of us are actually better as analysts. Maybe. But I’m not sure I trust my own insight as to the way forward not to get larded with stuff I’d kind of like to do anyway. There’s some stuff that keeps popping up in my head I kind of have to keep squashing. Maybe that’s just me. > [@Arrendis](#): > > I’ve never claimed the Empire must be ended at all cost. I’ve said that there is no scenario where they’re not an existential threat to literally everyone else, so long as their divine mandate exists. I’ve said they’re corrupt to the core, and evil. I’ve said it would be _good_ if what they are now were utterly destroyed. I’ve even said that at times it feels like it’d be preferable to just start the damned war already. Fair enough. It can be hard not to see your position and Miz’s as … … hard to distinguish. Especially since you seem perfectly happy to accept … … I’ll concede there’s a little daylight between you and that poor fool, though. Just, eventually all the demonization starts feeling kind of samey, you know? > [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](#): > > In a war of attrition, even if both sides lose equally, the smaller side loses more _relative to what they have_ . The power balance shifts, slowly but certainly. And the Republic is much, much smaller than the Empire. Whether that’s significant, though, depends on a lot of other factors, including whether the two sides do in fact lose equally and also how significant the losses are relative to the full pools of resources available. To me it seems like your long-term strategic issues have less to do with the pendulum war and more to do with relative spending on military versus infrastructure. Isn’t your current leader kind of famously hawkish regarding the Empire? I wonder if that’s what’s kept Malaetu Shakor from following through in the ways you seem to badly want him to. I’d expect such a person to have a more thorough understanding of the realities in play than we can get. And apparently whatever those realities are have given him cause for caution. ---
**Author:** ![Samira\_Kernher](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/samira_kernher/32/244840_2.png) [@Samira\_Kernher](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Samira_Kernher)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 5:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-should-the-republic-do-regarding-the-unrest-in-amarr-khanid/126918/34 "2018-12-14T17:17:00Z")
> [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > I wonder if that’s what’s kept Malaetu Shakor from following through in the ways you seem to badly want him to. He doesn’t have any power anymore. Converting the Republic into a tribal nation was one of his big goals, but that goal entailed him losing all political power he had. Anything that will happen, will be by the decision of the chiefs on the tribal council. ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 5:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-should-the-republic-do-regarding-the-unrest-in-amarr-khanid/126918/35 "2018-12-14T17:18:13Z")
… huh. So he’s just a figurehead who does stuff like attend Imperial coronations? Else? Confirm? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 5:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-should-the-republic-do-regarding-the-unrest-in-amarr-khanid/126918/36 "2018-12-14T17:36:05Z")
> [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > There’s some stuff that keeps popping up in my head I kind of have to keep squashing. Like what? You never know, you might have something in there with potential. > [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > So he’s just a figurehead who does stuff like attend Imperial coronations? The Sanmatar’s executive power is limited to more or less representing the decisions of the Tribal Council, and being one of the people who can talk to them directly. He _could_ take the reins of central power again in an emergency, but doing so, as I understand it, triggers either an immediate vote of no-confidence or flat out removes him from the position after a set interval. I forget which. ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 5:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-should-the-republic-do-regarding-the-unrest-in-amarr-khanid/126918/37 "2018-12-14T17:54:48Z")
> [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > Else? Confirm? Hard to say actually, what with how the Tribal Council is arranged as is. It is not exactly transparent. ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 6:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-should-the-republic-do-regarding-the-unrest-in-amarr-khanid/126918/38 "2018-12-14T18:15:56Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Like what? You never know, you might have something in there with potential. I try not to put trying to be a decent person in tension with keeping promises and not making idle threats, Arrendis. Revenge is cyclical. If I’m my best self, I’ll be one who breaks the cycle, not just another turn of the wheel. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 6:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-should-the-republic-do-regarding-the-unrest-in-amarr-khanid/126918/39 "2018-12-14T18:18:06Z")
More often than not, Aria, the technical term for the person who breaks that cycle is ‘casualty’. ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 6:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-should-the-republic-do-regarding-the-unrest-in-amarr-khanid/126918/40 "2018-12-14T18:20:06Z")
I’m aware, and I’m fine with that. My life’s not so important. There are things I’d rather make you kill me than let you do without having to. ---
**Author:** ![Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/veikitamo_gesakaarin/32/314638_2.png) [@Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Veikitamo_Gesakaarin)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 7:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-should-the-republic-do-regarding-the-unrest-in-amarr-khanid/126918/41 "2018-12-14T19:13:14Z")
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