# What's Holding This Game Back? **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [February 1, 2022, 10:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/whats-holding-this-game-back/348098 "2022-02-01T22:53:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Algathas](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/algathas/32/397229_2.png) [@Algathas](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Algathas)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2022, 3:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/whats-holding-this-game-back/348098/47 "2022-02-02T15:06:04Z")
> [@Cilla\_Cybin](#): > > The range of DPS between a noob equipped and skilled ship Dps isn’t the end all of everything in a fleet. There are plenty of roles a noob can fit into. You get torn up because you basically saying a noob is useless unless they have max dps, and they have to wait to do anything until they have achieved that. One part of what is holding the game back is people like you. ---
**Author:** ![Allisane\_Tergeryen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/allisane_tergeryen/32/305211_2.png) [@Allisane\_Tergeryen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Allisane_Tergeryen)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2022, 3:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/whats-holding-this-game-back/348098/48 "2022-02-02T15:10:01Z")
You can’t blame new players for why the game has had nearly a decade of decline. We literally just got here. It physically can’t be our faults. ---
**Author:** ![Aisha\_Katalen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aisha_katalen/32/387724_2.png) [@Aisha\_Katalen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aisha_Katalen)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2022, 3:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/whats-holding-this-game-back/348098/49 "2022-02-02T15:12:07Z")
I always react to people linking it. It’s a great way to figure out who my alts are. (Don’t do it, for the newbies). ---
**Author:** ![Jumpdrive](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jumpdrive/32/285032_2.png) [@Jumpdrive](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jumpdrive)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2022, 3:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/whats-holding-this-game-back/348098/50 "2022-02-02T15:21:18Z")
Yes, but it’s a matter of perspective. The fewer skillpoints a player has, the more important getting more skillpoints becomes. Advanced toons can only diversify to different activities or different ships with even more skills. That’s the perspective where the more serious detractors come from. Selling skills, one way or the other, is CCPs main source of income. Omega is continued access to previously acquired skills, plus skill generation. I doubt many players feel much need to spend their PLEX dollars on skins or apparel, when they are just being represented by small triangles, most of the time. Paid progression systems will always remain fundamental to the very existence of MMOs. It’s the smelly fertilizer that makes the whole thing go. This is also why new blood will be pandered to, especially in the case of EVE online. ---
**Author:** ![Allisane\_Tergeryen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/allisane_tergeryen/32/305211_2.png) [@Allisane\_Tergeryen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Allisane_Tergeryen)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2022, 3:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/whats-holding-this-game-back/348098/51 "2022-02-02T15:26:48Z")
In the alternative, I bought plex and never used it because the store options were all lame. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2022, 6:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/whats-holding-this-game-back/348098/52 "2022-02-02T18:21:22Z")
> [@Jumpdrive](#): > > Reason: mixing massive multiplayer with roll-playing game mechanics was never a great combination anyway and later on real alternatives arrived, the closest competitors being MOBAs. > Most PVP-orientated gamers nowadays play MOBAs, Hero shooters or just stick to plain old multiplayer RTS and FPS games. What? I’m pretty sure the entire MOBA market consists of a single Asian AI hive mind. MOBA games definitely don’t represent the PvP-oriented gamer demographic. You can’t even tell apart playing against other players or really intelligent bots in those games. MOBAs are the games all of my wardec targets went to play when I showed up to their home systems in an Atron, after whining in local about “griefing” for three hours. Most people I’ve known in EVE who were _actual_ PvPers went over to various survival games and other PvP MMO games like Albion. > [@Cilla\_Cybin](#): > > The range of DPS between a noob equipped and skilled ship and a fully trained and equipped one can be a factor of 4 or 5. That’s especially true with all the Tech II weapons and skills. My first Algos had a DPS of just 70…I can now get an Algos to over 300 DPS. Four months of skills…that still are nowhere near complete. Stop it with your asinine lies already; this is _literally_ mathematically impossible. You are misleading people by comparing a special-use case with a ship using 2 drones against a ship using 5. Under normal circumstances, fully maxing out your damage doesn’t even **double** it over someone who’s been playing for 6 hours. And comparing it to someone who’s been playing for about a week, there’s only a ~39% difference. ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/8/8/9/8899a557cf1600bb7dac3105b303a4abc55985b8.png) ---
**Author:** ![Adm\_Malkaviano](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/adm_malkaviano/32/496610_2.png) [@Adm\_Malkaviano](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Adm_Malkaviano)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2022, 6:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/whats-holding-this-game-back/348098/53 "2022-02-02T18:42:43Z")
For some reason “Gain over noob” is enjoyable to read. @Etch_Masuka vets can be toxic, avoid them, you need to understand skill queue is part of the way CCP monetizes the game, it’s a barrier. @Allisane_Tergeryen no it’s not newbies fault, mostly it’s vets fault and CCPs for listening to them. Just enjoy the game. @Destiny_Corrupted opt-out of pvp will favor bots too much. ---
**Author:** ![Minmatar\_Citizen\_90926914](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/minmatar_citizen_90926914/32/306944_2.png) [@Minmatar\_Citizen\_90926914](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Minmatar_Citizen_90926914)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2022, 6:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/whats-holding-this-game-back/348098/55 "2022-02-02T18:55:42Z")
I can only speak for myself. What holds it back for me is…When I fail, I can’t find the info why through playing the game. I need to watch a video, and learn that I really stood no chance, and that I need so and so to compete, but to get so and so I need tons of money. With tons of money. I risk losing it all. So to get better, I need to risk lots of money. To risk lots of money if I die I want to learn why I died, and what I could have done better. I could be wrong, but I feel like this game snowballs in the wrong way for people wanting to get into the pvp or at least being able to defend themselves ---
**Author:** ![Allisane\_Tergeryen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/allisane_tergeryen/32/305211_2.png) [@Allisane\_Tergeryen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Allisane_Tergeryen)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2022, 7:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/whats-holding-this-game-back/348098/56 "2022-02-02T19:09:58Z")
I feel this in my bones. It feels better to not play than to lose what I’ve gained so far. I can see the EVE icon right now. Probably won’t open it. I’d only be prey for someone who has a decade’s worth of acquisitions and sp, then spend my whole play time trying to make up for that loss. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2022, 7:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/whats-holding-this-game-back/348098/57 "2022-02-02T19:31:22Z")
> [@Allisane\_Tergeryen](#): > > It feels better to not play than to lose what I’ve gained so far. You have an irrational/pedestrian view of risk. In EVE, it’s most often the case that increasing your risk will lead to disproportionately-larger income. For example, you can risk a 1-million-ISK Venture to make 1 million ISK per hour mining, or you can risk a 30-million-ISK mining barge to make 20 million ISK per hour. The level of risk (not the financial impact) for either is effectively the same, but the latter multiplies your profits by 20. Per these figures, if you lose 1 ship every 10 hours, then you make .9 million ISK per hour using the Venture, but would make 17 million ISK per hour using the mining barge, _after_ the losses are taken into consideration. Even if you lost a barge every 2 hours, you’d still make over 5x as much money per hour as you would by using a Venture and losing 1 every 10 hours! You could structure and improve your gameplay to the extent that minor losses wouldn’t even register for you mentally, but instead insist on getting caught in the mental trap of irrational loss aversion. Imagine someone offers for you to wager $1 for a chance to win $2,000, with the odds of winning being 1 in 100, but you choose to keep that dollar because you’re so terrified of losing even such an insignificant sum of money that you wouldn’t take this amazing opportunity to wager it in a transaction that’s **massively** stacked in your favor. **This** is why “caebears” in EVE are so silly. ---
**Author:** ![Aisha\_Katalen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aisha_katalen/32/387724_2.png) [@Aisha\_Katalen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aisha_Katalen)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2022, 7:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/whats-holding-this-game-back/348098/58 "2022-02-02T19:33:06Z")
> [@Minmatar\_Citizen\_90926914](#): > > I could be wrong, but I feel like this game snowballs in the wrong way for people wanting to get into the pvp or at least being able to defend themselves EVE is competitive, partly in the isk/ship/SP department but mostly in the knowledge&preparation department. Newbies can do just fine in most play styles including PVP but only if they put in the effort to learn and to accept that there’s always a bigger fish and to adjust your ship choices and play styles to that. It’s never going to be easy and it’s never going to be rage free but it CAN work well **IF** you put in the effort. ---
**Author:** ![Minmatar\_Citizen\_90926914](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/minmatar_citizen_90926914/32/306944_2.png) [@Minmatar\_Citizen\_90926914](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Minmatar_Citizen_90926914)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2022, 7:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/whats-holding-this-game-back/348098/59 "2022-02-02T19:40:43Z")
The learning part is fine, the problem I have is that I can’t learn through failure in the game itself. or if I can it does not explain well how to learn it. The layers to this game is a double edge sword. For people who are into it, they get a deep rich combat, and enjoyment. However, for people wanting to get into it. That is a barrier, and as much as I enjoy eve, we have many other space options out. So I don’t think a right answer for this. If you dumb it down for new players, you lose the older players who like it. If you keep it the same, people are going to keep being care bears, or just not play as much. The middle ground would be, maybe better tools to learn through failure, but I would not know where to start. I think a game fails when you need video guides. I am only speaking for myself. I don’t want to say this is the problem or that it even is one. I can only say how I feel, and that is it. I’m sure someone picked up this game and had no problems at all learning through playing. I am just not one of them. ---
**Author:** ![Aisha\_Katalen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aisha_katalen/32/387724_2.png) [@Aisha\_Katalen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aisha_Katalen)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2022, 7:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/whats-holding-this-game-back/348098/60 "2022-02-02T19:48:50Z")
> [@Minmatar\_Citizen\_90926914](#): > > for people wanting to get into it. That is a barrier, > [@Minmatar\_Citizen\_90926914](#): > > I think a game fails when you need video guides. Well you have to choose: accept that without extra effort it’s probably always going to be a difficult experience, accept that you want to get in to it and agree to put in that effort or… don’t and quit. EVE is a complex game where not putting in (brain) effort gets punished. If you don’t agree with that or can’t deal with that then you are playing the wrong game. Accept, adjust or stop. Those are your options. ---
**Author:** ![Minmatar\_Citizen\_90926914](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/minmatar_citizen_90926914/32/306944_2.png) [@Minmatar\_Citizen\_90926914](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Minmatar_Citizen_90926914)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2022, 7:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/whats-holding-this-game-back/348098/61 "2022-02-02T19:56:44Z")
I agree with you, but having such a stance is not going to do well from a business stand point, but maybe that is ok also? Either way, you have a hard stance on it and that is fine. As it turns out, most people just don’t play and or use cloaking to get around it if they do. Even the large scale pvp, my just blew up two stations and people are just not fighting even his group was out number, people are playing passive. So from a new player stand point, none of it even looks fun if he has been trying for weeks to get a epic battle going to show me. Overall, from a newish player stand point. Eve so far is showing me very little that makes me want to get into the complex system. Losing without tools or systems to learn from is not a good game. So even with your hardcore stance. That is not going to help the game grow saying accept it is a complex game or don’t play. It would be better on your part to explain why it is worth learning this way. Even watching my friend trying to get some massive battles going, or even him trying to gank in null. It just does not look like it is worth to learn the combat. Just buy cloaking and avoid combat as it seems like the weakest part of the game. ---
**Author:** ![Aisha\_Katalen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aisha_katalen/32/387724_2.png) [@Aisha\_Katalen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aisha_Katalen)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2022, 8:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/whats-holding-this-game-back/348098/62 "2022-02-02T20:00:26Z")
If you don’t like the massive fleet fights and how lopsided they tend to be, don’t be part of a null alliance and seek other play styles that suit you better. Change the scenario, change the rules, change the game. Everything comes form personal effort, that includes picking the right friends but also BEING the right friend. ---
**Author:** ![Minmatar\_Citizen\_90926914](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/minmatar_citizen_90926914/32/306944_2.png) [@Minmatar\_Citizen\_90926914](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Minmatar_Citizen_90926914)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2022, 8:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/whats-holding-this-game-back/348098/63 "2022-02-02T20:09:17Z")
I never seen it so I don’t know how it is. I just know my friend has been trying to get into one for weeks now, and the player base that do it looks like to be a bunch of cowards. Personal effort only matters if it is rewarding, what this game does is say ok to learn or even stand a chance. You need to invest tons of time and isk to learn. Now if you are going to lose said isk or even risk it. You need to be able to learn from your failures in a easy to understand way. The layers of systems makes it hard to do that. It kinda reminds me of the older people shaking a cane and saying, well I took years to learn it and now I can enjoy the game. Put more time and effort into it and you can have fun also? When the younger people are like, ummm why when I have other options that does not require such things. So tell me gramps, what does this game offer me for spending that much time and energy? My point is Risk vs Reward is tainted because the reward I want is knowledge on why I failed, and the game does not really teach that. So the risk vs reward comes in Isk, but if the knowledge part has to come through watching a video, that takes away from the game, and it also makes it harder to learn. A video does not beat hands on learning, and hands on learning requires investment most sane people would not do. And that leads to watching these cowards let stations get blown up and don’t do anything about it. Because investment and time at such a large scale is snowballed in a way that people just don’t want to do risk. ---
**Author:** ![Aisha\_Katalen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aisha_katalen/32/387724_2.png) [@Aisha\_Katalen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aisha_Katalen)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2022, 8:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/whats-holding-this-game-back/348098/64 "2022-02-02T20:14:00Z")
You’re very wrong about this. If you’re eager to learn and be part of a group you could join a decent null block in a matter of days after creation, be given ships for free and be part of the fleet and doing your part in that whole fleet. And if you’re capable of being a likeable person then generally the vets will shower you with goodies and ships and everything. But that takes effort and the will to do something. Sitting back going “eh it all sucks, why can’t this be fun” without any personal effort is not going to work well and wallowing and whining about it brings nothing. As I said earlier: it’s about about the personal choices you make, everything stems from that. ---
**Author:** ![Allisane\_Tergeryen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/allisane_tergeryen/32/305211_2.png) [@Allisane\_Tergeryen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Allisane_Tergeryen)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2022, 8:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/whats-holding-this-game-back/348098/65 "2022-02-02T20:17:43Z")
I am a human being. I am going to have an irrational view of risk. That’s how humans and games work. I can beat every pvp player in the game by not logging in rather than basing my play around them. For me to beat my hunters, my best solution is just to never play they have one less prey. May they starve. I once made 200 million isk to cloak and watch a gate for four hours while corpmates ran incursions. It was the most isk I have ever made in a play session but it was also the most boring session I ever played. Honestly, seeing how the most blingy ships in HS PVE cowering from gankers made me evaluate how silly EVE’s systems of PVP violence are. The game has to feel good enough to succeed at to make playing worth it. ---
**Author:** ![Minmatar\_Citizen\_90926914](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/minmatar_citizen_90926914/32/306944_2.png) [@Minmatar\_Citizen\_90926914](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Minmatar_Citizen_90926914)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2022, 8:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/whats-holding-this-game-back/348098/66 "2022-02-02T20:33:35Z")
I might be old fashion, but when I play mmos, I don’t like accepting gifts from friends. My friend is part of a big group, and has billions of isk, work with goon or whatever and just knows the game well. I ask him question, but don’t ask for isk or ships because I enjoy earning and making my own stuff. I could very well be wrong, but I am speaking from a player who wants to learn at his own pace, and wants the game to give him all the info he needs to learn at said pace. This community is great, well besides this silly hate of pvp and carebears have for each other. Reminds me of my ultima online days, but if this game is going to stay complex and wants players to stick with it. It needs better tools through playing to say hey this is what happens. I will give you an example. The ship Thrasher. It seems to be a shield ship with bonus, but when you look into the stats. It has 10 percent higher stats in em for armor. Many other ships have only 50 instead of 60. So now you go to go on the rabbit hole of, is it better to go armor? Ok in certain pve fights it might be. So what fights? In pvp what does all this mean? Like the layers on layers of things that most people would just shrug and avoid it. Want to know the shocker? I seen people 11 years playing, and don’t know much and avoid the combat in this game. When I ask why, they always say the same thing. Just not fun, or too complex to care. ---
**Author:** ![Aisha\_Katalen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aisha_katalen/32/387724_2.png) [@Aisha\_Katalen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aisha_Katalen)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2022, 8:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/whats-holding-this-game-back/348098/67 "2022-02-02T20:36:56Z")
> [@Minmatar\_Citizen\_90926914](#): > > I am speaking from a player who wants to learn at his own pace, Seems like that is not the case. You want to learn, you say, but you don’t want to have to put in the _effort_ to learn. Also, from what you’ve been saying it becomes more and more obvious you’re not a new player at all. So GL with it all. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/whats-holding-this-game-back/348098.md?page=2) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/whats-holding-this-game-back/348098.md?page=4)