# When hope dies: my fears on the development direction of the game **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [May 13, 2021, 12:12am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/when-hope-dies-my-fears-on-the-development-direction-of-the-game/311067 "2021-05-13T00:12:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Anabella\_Rella](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anabella_rella/32/515671_2.png) [@Anabella\_Rella](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anabella_Rella)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2021, 7:10am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/when-hope-dies-my-fears-on-the-development-direction-of-the-game/311067/284 "2021-05-15T07:10:04Z")
Wow, someone’s drinking Rattati’s kool-aid by the gallon. Nothing CCP’s doing with regards to industry does any of those things. I just looked at the flowchart for building a faction cruiser under the new system vs the old system. It’s ill conceived, unnecessary complexity for the sake of complexity, not interesting game play or “choice”. It’s making industry more tedious and time intensive, that’s it. @Nascent3ch0 and @Ronin_Gabe: As to the bleating of the usual suspects; there are none so blind as those who simply refuse to see. I recommend putting the trolls on your perma-ignore list and continuing with those who actually wish to have thoughtful discourse. ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2021, 8:13am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/when-hope-dies-my-fears-on-the-development-direction-of-the-game/311067/285 "2021-05-15T08:13:24Z")
I love how the poors are crying because they have no clue. And still lashing out at thise who could help them. I wonder who they will be replaced by next season after they quit. If they could actually formulate a coherent strategy I suppose they would be able to form a coherent discussion too. I made 2b while this thread has been running and Ive not been logged in lol. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2021, 8:25am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/when-hope-dies-my-fears-on-the-development-direction-of-the-game/311067/286 "2021-05-15T08:25:42Z")
You know what absolutely makes me **RAGE**? When someone calls me a troll and tells everyone that they have me blocked and that everyone else should block me too. It’s absolutely infuriating because it means that they win and I lose. Reeeee! ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2021, 9:03am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/when-hope-dies-my-fears-on-the-development-direction-of-the-game/311067/287 "2021-05-15T09:03:19Z")
For me its when I point out they are trolling and they take it personally. ---
**Author:** ![Avaelica\_Kuershin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/avaelica_kuershin/32/478139_2.png) [@Avaelica\_Kuershin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Avaelica_Kuershin)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2021, 10:33am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/when-hope-dies-my-fears-on-the-development-direction-of-the-game/311067/288 "2021-05-15T10:33:13Z")
> [@Anabella\_Rella](#): > > I just looked at the flowchart for building a faction cruiser under the new system vs the old system. Just as with the changes for battleships, I expect CCP will eventually want to make similar changes to all ships. 🤷‍♀️ ---
**Author:** ![Neo\_Bladedrifter](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/neo_bladedrifter/32/244232_2.png) [@Neo\_Bladedrifter](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Neo_Bladedrifter)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2021, 10:48am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/when-hope-dies-my-fears-on-the-development-direction-of-the-game/311067/289 "2021-05-15T10:48:50Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > camp? Null love to play bubbles at thier gates so I explore thier through wormhole to wormhole. It’s really fun not to use their gates. I don’t want to feed thier egos.🤗 oh yes. I also use a jumping alt dummy. The one who first jump to check if their are gate campers on the other side. ---
**Author:** ![Nascent3ch0](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nascent3ch0/32/374213_2.png) [@Nascent3ch0](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nascent3ch0)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2021, 12:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/when-hope-dies-my-fears-on-the-development-direction-of-the-game/311067/290 "2021-05-15T12:16:02Z")
> [@Ashterothi](#): > > Industry changes made more choices, and made choices more interesting. As I noted in the OP the indy changes are good, and I adore them. > [@Ashterothi](#): > > New gates are another opportunity for us to shape the universe. The engagement with this event, and the results of it will create new choices. The systems they chose were very well targeted to make interesting conflicts over their construction/disruption. No, it simply favors lazy hunters who no longer have to ‘go to where the gazelle are.’ As for the event, I don’t know anything about it yet. We all thought the Trig Invasion offered potential player intervention, but it didn’t in the end because the outcome was predetermined. In my opinion, in the context of that event, this was fine. If new gates are predetermined in the same way then it’s not an agency event and you know it. > [@Ashterothi](#): > > They are not destroying interdiction nullification, quite the opposite, the ships that were good at it will likely still be good at it, but also the function will be more broadly useable to more classes of ship. Making things active over passive makes more dynamic gameplay and if you account for the bonuses on the ships that used to have nullification those ships are able to bring their cooldown to near or below gate cloak timer. This is not how it’s baring out on SiSi so far. There’s also a massive consequence gap between ‘under’ and ‘nearly under.’ Enough with this spin, it’s just false. Ash, I know you’re Eve famous and all but I really need you to commit to reading the threads so I don’t have to smack down arguments that were already addressed, and so you don’t make points in defense against arguments I didn’t make. ---
**Author:** ![Nascent3ch0](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nascent3ch0/32/374213_2.png) [@Nascent3ch0](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nascent3ch0)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2021, 12:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/when-hope-dies-my-fears-on-the-development-direction-of-the-game/311067/291 "2021-05-15T12:18:56Z")
I haven’t blocked you, but you ABSOLUTELY are a troll by your own admission. > [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > There’s no deflection. I’ve said everything I wanted to say, and at this point am simply mocking you. Sit down please and can the ‘I’m not a troll’ BS. Do you even see yourself? ---
**Author:** ![Nascent3ch0](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nascent3ch0/32/374213_2.png) [@Nascent3ch0](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nascent3ch0)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2021, 12:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/when-hope-dies-my-fears-on-the-development-direction-of-the-game/311067/292 "2021-05-15T12:20:23Z")
The real debate: is it bleating or braying. ---
**Author:** ![Nascent3ch0](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nascent3ch0/32/374213_2.png) [@Nascent3ch0](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nascent3ch0)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2021, 12:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/when-hope-dies-my-fears-on-the-development-direction-of-the-game/311067/293 "2021-05-15T12:22:31Z")
If I survive the new gates and the destruction of nullification as we know it, it will probably be doing something like this. To think, I used to be so annoyed when what I scanned down was a wormhole. Now it may end up my sole salvation, especially since dollars to donuts a CD/cycled cloak is next. ---
**Author:** ![Nascent3ch0](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nascent3ch0/32/374213_2.png) [@Nascent3ch0](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nascent3ch0)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2021, 12:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/when-hope-dies-my-fears-on-the-development-direction-of-the-game/311067/294 "2021-05-15T12:24:45Z")
I can only base my conclusions on the behavior I’ve seen on these forums, and what I’ve seen gives me no reason to think otherwise. No reason at all. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2021, 12:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/when-hope-dies-my-fears-on-the-development-direction-of-the-game/311067/295 "2021-05-15T12:25:16Z")
> [@Nascent3ch0](#): > > I haven’t blocked you, but you ABSOLUTELY are a troll by your own admission. > > Sit down please and can the ‘I’m not a troll’ BS. Do you even see yourself? It was really in reference to that new person that decided to pop in, but yes, I do, _all the time_. My place is **literally** covered in mirrors, floor to ceiling. The only non-reflective surfaces are the portraits of Aiko (though they are very shiny). I enjoy looking at beautiful things. ---
**Author:** ![Nascent3ch0](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nascent3ch0/32/374213_2.png) [@Nascent3ch0](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nascent3ch0)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2021, 12:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/when-hope-dies-my-fears-on-the-development-direction-of-the-game/311067/296 "2021-05-15T12:26:54Z")
While not really a retort, I appreciate this reply’s originality. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2021, 12:30pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/when-hope-dies-my-fears-on-the-development-direction-of-the-game/311067/297 "2021-05-15T12:30:05Z")
We’ll be best friends yet, you just watch. At some point I’ll have you pulling on carebear gizzards with your beak, and you will finally achieve true enlightenment. The way you see this game, and all other games, and life in general, will completely change. I _guarantee_ it (it’s happened to others I know who went through the process). ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/b/4/8/b482ba22c783586501dd774a053dcda0b84ffb31.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![Nascent3ch0](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nascent3ch0/32/374213_2.png) [@Nascent3ch0](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nascent3ch0)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2021, 12:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/when-hope-dies-my-fears-on-the-development-direction-of-the-game/311067/298 "2021-05-15T12:38:06Z")
I doubt that, extremely. I have no desire to destroy the game of other people to make my own game better. I’m much more interested in nuanced and considered change that benefits as many people as possible. As much as others might think otherwise it’s not ego for me, it’s vision. I outlined that vision in the OP, on what I thought Eve really was. ---
**Author:** ![Hagen\_Crendraven](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/hagen_crendraven/32/505134_2.png) [@Hagen\_Crendraven](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Hagen_Crendraven)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2021, 2:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/when-hope-dies-my-fears-on-the-development-direction-of-the-game/311067/299 "2021-05-15T14:00:29Z")
Greetings fellow traveler. What does this word “care bear” mean to you? Just curious. ---
**Author:** ![Ashterothi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ashterothi/32/459299_2.png) [@Ashterothi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ashterothi)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2021, 3:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/when-hope-dies-my-fears-on-the-development-direction-of-the-game/311067/300 "2021-05-15T15:41:27Z")
> [@Nascent3ch0](#): > > No, it simply favors lazy hunters who no longer have to ‘go to where the gazelle are.’ As for the event, I don’t know anything about it yet. We all thought the Trig Invasion offered potential player intervention, but it didn’t in the end because the outcome was predetermined. In my opinion, in the context of that event, this was fine. If new gates are predetermined in the same way then it’s not an agency event and you know it. The new gates are: 1. Reconnects Amarr to Jita with one lowsec jump (11 jumps total) 2. Connects Hek closer to the other trade hubs avoiding the major chokepoint 3. A gate to Solitude that doesn’t matter too much to the players of the game mechanically (as it still would require a half-dozen jumps to lowsec, hardly a high-to-high connection) and thus will mostly be built for “RP reasons” if anything and the 4th is of course the Meme gate itself, your lowsec gate to Stain. These do not help ‘lazy hunters’. It DOES give people who want to fight over something an opportunity and flashpoint to fight over, the consequences of these gates being built (or not built) are complex and will open up new logistic options (with new risks involved) > [@Nascent3ch0](#): > > outcome was predetermined. The 👏 Outcome 👏 Wasn’t 👏 Predetermined 👏 While it is true that stopping the capturing of the systems all together during invasion would have been difficult, given the number of support players gave to pro-Triglavian forces, it is worth noting that on Serenity EVERY single eligable system went EDENCOM, so it was very very possible. That said, EDENCOM fought hard and secured several systems targetted by the Triglavians, Fortifying over twice as many as were taken. So no the results were not ‘predetermined’ you may have been able to predict that Pochven would have been made “somewhere” but the results are very much the effect of thousands of players over thousands of hours. On top of that, these four gates are going to be happening most likely at the same time, which makes it hard for a single entity to try to build all four. I predict there will be different groups working on different gates, both for and against. Will this prevent one or more of the gates? We will have to see… > [@Nascent3ch0](#): > > This is not how it’s baring out on SiSi so far. There’s also a massive consequence gap between ‘under’ and ‘nearly under.’ Enough with this spin, it’s just false. I have been on Sisi quite a bit looking at these, and talking to CCP. I have a lot of interest in both WCS and nullification changes. Did you see they buffed the bonus to be 80% instead of 50%? Additionally “nearly under” is as good as “under” when you consider that you are not jumping instantly but you are also warping to the gate and going through jump animations etc. That takes up time too. It would seem that these bonused ships will be able to use it more or less freely, and the effect will last for half a minute so you could even in theory manage to have it active on both sides if you fly right. And that is the point. It used to be a foregone conclusion, a rock-paper-scissors of what you bring (at best). This new design allows for player piloting to be the major factor in who wins these interactions. ---
**Author:** ![Nascent3ch0](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nascent3ch0/32/374213_2.png) [@Nascent3ch0](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nascent3ch0)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2021, 4:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/when-hope-dies-my-fears-on-the-development-direction-of-the-game/311067/301 "2021-05-15T16:12:25Z")
> [@Ashterothi](#): > > The 👏 Outcome 👏 Wasn’t 👏 Predetermined Yes 👏 it 👏 was. The only thing about it that was **not** predetermined was _WHICH_ systems were captured. CCP would not have scrapped Pochven if the player base failed to capture 27 systems in a timely fashion (Serenity anyone?). They would have simply delayed it until players did so. The nature of the outcome was thus predetermined, even if the SHAPE of the outcome was not. The ongoing invasions literally instantly ended when 27 was reached. EDIT: Just to say it again, in the context of that event, I don’t think this kind of predetermination is problematic. > [@Ashterothi](#): > > A gate to Solitude that doesn’t matter too much to the players of the game mechanically (as it still would require a half-dozen jumps to lowsec, hardly a high-to-high connection) and thus will mostly be built for “RP reasons” if anything > and the 4th is of course the Meme gate itself, your lowsec gate to Stain. The current route requires about a dozen low sec jumps depending on your autopilot settings and if you don’t go through Syndicate. Half a dozen is clearly less then this. There is literally nothing stopping a PVP alliance from moving to solitude to hunt the people who CHOSE (note: agency) to live there. Most recently ‘I Will End Your Whole’ has been trying to do just that. Those alliances that haven’t CHOOSE (note: agency) not to. These are meaningful choices, much more so then simply making a new door. Making a new door invalidates the agency in both cases and in both directions, to say nothing of the effect it has on the Syndicate tunnel. > [@Ashterothi](#): > > On top of that, these four gates are going to be happening most likely at the same time, which makes it hard for a single entity to try to build all four. I predict there will be different groups working on different gates, both for and against. Will this prevent one or more of the gates? We will have to see… I hope this is true. If an event with real agency decides whether or not these gates materialize is part of the plan it makes the whole notion much more interesting. I’m still against the idea, but at least I’ll have a say in it. > [@Ashterothi](#): > > Did you see they buffed the bonus to be 80% instead of 50%? Additionally “nearly under” is as good as “under” when you consider that you are not jumping instantly but you are also warping to the gate and going through jump animations etc. This I have not seen in practice yet, and I will check it out as soon as I’m done writing here. > [@Ashterothi](#): > > And that is the point. It used to be a foregone conclusion, a rock-paper-scissors of what you bring (at best). This new design allows for player piloting to be the major factor in who wins these interactions. I don’t think this is an entirely accurate framing of the issue. As it currently stands a well formed and properly executed gate camp can catch everything except a travelceptor or a strategic cruiser with minimal effort. I think using those ships was an agency choice. @Ashterothi while my responses are very animated I want to thank you for putting together a good post, even if I don’t entirely (or even mostly) agree with it. ---
**Author:** ![Ashterothi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ashterothi/32/459299_2.png) [@Ashterothi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ashterothi)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2021, 4:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/when-hope-dies-my-fears-on-the-development-direction-of-the-game/311067/302 "2021-05-15T16:51:34Z")
> [@Nascent3ch0](#): > > The only thing about it that was **not** predetermined was _WHICH_ systems were captured. This is a completely unfounded assertion that people have presented that even if it were true would still show that the outcome was not predetermined. The question of “which systems” is far from a trivial one. The fact that the task was more about “save as much as you can” rather than “prevent the formation of Pochven outright” does not belittle the effort that was put into shaping and building Pochven. Had our side functioned like Serenity it would have been very possible that NO systems were successfully sent into Liminality. While this would have been completely unexpected and would have required a lot of reworking likely, it was a scenario that was possible. They couldn’t just wait it out, there were only so many candidate systems to begin with. If your going to compare these 4 systems to the over 100 fought over in the course of Invasions and claim that this has any meaning at least be honest about the original event. Perhaps the notion that it was predetermined is one of the things CCP didn’t like about how Invasions turned out and this is an iteration on that concept. Who knows? I know I don’t, but simply stating these things are fact when they are just simply not isn’t helping the discussion. CCP didn’t control when a system got invaded, CCP didn’t control when or if systems went to liminality, all they did was set the rules of the game and let the AI controllers and players do the rest. For example, CCP literally did not know Niarja was going to go active until the rest of us did. You can be not happy with some decisions, without spreading false information. > [@Nascent3ch0](#): > > As it currently stands a well formed and properly executed gate camp can catch everything except a travelceptor or a strategic cruiser with minimal effort. BTW this was the _problem_ and this change opens up that a lot. A lot more ships will be able to blow through gatecamps, and gatecamps have more options to try to snag even slippery ships. Play and counterplay, not a foregone conclusion based on ship selection. ---
**Author:** ![Small\_Kitty\_Paws](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/small_kitty_paws/32/267673_2.png) [@Small\_Kitty\_Paws](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Small_Kitty_Paws)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2021, 5:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/when-hope-dies-my-fears-on-the-development-direction-of-the-game/311067/303 "2021-05-15T17:07:22Z")
> [@Ashterothi](#): > > CCP didn’t control when a system got invaded You don’t know that. There is no single proof if this was or wasn’t predetermined. But reasonable assumption is that no company will invest money and development time on “uncertain outcome”. Until there was 27 conquered systems outcome of invasion was theoretically unknown. After 27 systems went down, pochven update landed on TQ quite fast. It must have been coded long before last system was conquered. That’s why it’s safe to assume that CCP had knobs to steer invasion in one possible outcome. Not to mention that pro edencom players where f\*\*\* really hard by CCP, with zero content after invasion. Which clearly shows that there was zero preparations for different ending. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/when-hope-dies-my-fears-on-the-development-direction-of-the-game/311067.md?page=14) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/when-hope-dies-my-fears-on-the-development-direction-of-the-game/311067.md?page=16)