# Who or what are the Vimoksha Chorus? **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [September 17, 2019, 9:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/who-or-what-are-the-vimoksha-chorus/190835 "2019-09-17T21:52:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2020, 9:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/who-or-what-are-the-vimoksha-chorus/190835/21 "2020-01-22T21:09:04Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > If _you_ were Sansha Kuvakei, and you were building the wetware network that is the Nation, would you be foolish enough to leave that large a point of failure? No intelligent engineer would leave out such a failsafe, and Sansha Kuvakei is an _excellent_ engineer. So … I see your point, Arrendis, but if I were Sansha Kuvakei what I’d do would depend a lot on where in my history I was, at that time. Back before Sansha’s Nation’s fall, he was a utopian idealist. (He might even still be, but if so his outlook and methods have gotten way darker, doubling and tripling down on what drove the CONCORD treaty powers to unite against him to begin with.) He may have trusted certain people, unambiguously and without reservation. I think you’re right that we shouldn’t assume that he can’t reel Citizen Sedek back in at will, but I also think we shouldn’t put too much on the assumption that he can. It seems like an “expect whatever” situation. (Of course, that might not mean very much unless someone’s foolish enough to go get cosy with either one. But surely nobody’s in such a sad state that they’d go and do something like THAT?) (On which note: gods and spirits, TD’s, so you lost the round. Memories are fresh; there’s no substantial nostalgia for Heth-haan and the Provists yet. Go spend another generation or two muttering imprecations on foreigners into your drinks and give us a few decades’ peace.) ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2020, 9:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/who-or-what-are-the-vimoksha-chorus/190835/22 "2020-01-22T21:16:03Z")
> [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > I think you’re right that we shouldn’t assume that he can’t reel Citizen Sedek back in at will, but I also think we shouldn’t put too much on the assumption that he can. I don’t put anything on the assumption he can. It’s simply a matter of risk assessment. We can either proceed as if the ‘splinter’ is genuine, or a sham. The risk posed by proceeding as if they are genuine are obvious: We minimize the threat they represent and make strategy based on a rift that isn’t there. We leave ourselves open to attack from additional directions as the ‘Chorus’ works on expanding their connections with the marginalized and outlawed organizations throughout New Eden. That possibility is not one that is worth risking. The risk of proceeding as it the splinter is a sham is that we might miss out on the opportunity to encourage the growth of two competing organizations of technologically-advanced terrorists with a penchant for forced indoctrination of innocent bystanders. Oh no. Whatever shall we do if we don’t foster a _second_ massive threat to civilian baseliners? How _ever_ can we sleep at night? > [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > there’s no substantial nostalgia for Heth-haan and the Provists yet Tell that to Kim. ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2020, 9:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/who-or-what-are-the-vimoksha-chorus/190835/23 "2020-01-22T21:17:51Z")
Ms. Kim, determined and driven though she is, does not constitute “substantial nostalgia” in the context of the State as a whole. And, the only way that I disagree with your risk analysis is that it could lead us to misunderstand some details of the current situation. Basically I don’t think we actually disagree, though. For your purposes, “shoot them, lots” seem good enough? Mine, too. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2020, 9:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/who-or-what-are-the-vimoksha-chorus/190835/24 "2020-01-22T21:21:18Z")
If we’re going to go and have a consistent pattern of wringing our hands over the potential destruction capsuleers represent, especially in light of our often-celebrity status among baseliners, we cannot then discount the impact that force for destruction can have. Especially not one who is known to have _capsuleer_ fans so cultish as to get accused of being sockpuppets. ---
**Author:** ![Valerie\_Valate](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/valerie_valate/32/386231_2.png) [@Valerie\_Valate](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Valerie_Valate)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2020, 9:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/who-or-what-are-the-vimoksha-chorus/190835/25 "2020-01-22T21:22:31Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Is it _possible_ ? Perhaps. But should we take the chance of that? That would be _idiotic_ . No, they cannot be trusted any more than capsuleer toasters can. Who was arguing they could be trusted ? The question of whether they are a genuine splinter or a deniable asset is largely academic, is it not ? They still represent an agenda to which people are vehemently opposed, do they not ? What difference does it really make, whether it is Kuvakei or Sedek that is in charge of a particular band of hiveminded True Slaves, when those True Slave units are attacking things ? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2020, 9:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/who-or-what-are-the-vimoksha-chorus/190835/26 "2020-01-22T21:23:47Z")
Because as soon as there is the impression of daylight between the two, you will have people looking to take advantage of that, including by cozying up to the group they think they can ‘use’. Because people are morons, more often than not. ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2020, 9:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/who-or-what-are-the-vimoksha-chorus/190835/27 "2020-01-22T21:24:38Z")
I see you’re in an argumentative mood. I’ll leave you to it, then. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2020, 9:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/who-or-what-are-the-vimoksha-chorus/190835/28 "2020-01-22T21:28:05Z")
You really do need to get a handle on that passive-aggressive nonsense whenever anyone stops blowing smoke up your rear and agreeing with every single aspect of every statement you make. ---
**Author:** ![Valerie\_Valate](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/valerie_valate/32/386231_2.png) [@Valerie\_Valate](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Valerie_Valate)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2020, 9:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/who-or-what-are-the-vimoksha-chorus/190835/29 "2020-01-22T21:36:25Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Because people are morons, more often than not. Well, when you put it like _that_, sure. I see your point. ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2020, 9:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/who-or-what-are-the-vimoksha-chorus/190835/30 "2020-01-22T21:37:56Z")
Haha … not anyone, Arrendis. Just, you really like arguing, but not every argument you want to get into is worth it to me. (You just literally argued that Ms. Kim and her closest friends are a substantial political force in the Caldari State. I truly cannot be bothered.) ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2020, 10:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/who-or-what-are-the-vimoksha-chorus/190835/31 "2020-01-22T22:23:10Z")
No, I literally just argued that she is _representative_ of a viewpoint in the State that is not as dead as you seem to want it to be, and that she is not alone in it. Have you polled the State populace? The Dragonaur retain enough influence under the table that their operatives inside the Caldari Navy were able to breach the Kyonoke Pit. Do you know the extent of their reach? Do you know how many publicly toe the company line, but privately want the ‘strong’ leadership of Heth again? Do you have hard numbers, or are you just projecting your optimism? Because optimism’s a really good way to find yourself stabbed in the back. Hope for the best, yes, and work to make it happen… but _plan_ for the worst. ---
**Author:** ![Morgana\_Tsukiyo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/morgana_tsukiyo/32/385507_2.png) [@Morgana\_Tsukiyo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Morgana_Tsukiyo)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2020, 12:44am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/who-or-what-are-the-vimoksha-chorus/190835/32 "2020-01-23T00:44:22Z")
I liked (the image i had of) Heth. Until i didnt. Never met him. Who knows now we can do a meet & greet with what is left(?) of him? Are cyberzombies worst than regular zombies? ---
**Author:** ![Haria\_Haritimado](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/haria_haritimado/32/172465_2.png) [@Haria\_Haritimado](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Haria_Haritimado)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2020, 10:46am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/who-or-what-are-the-vimoksha-chorus/190835/33 "2020-01-23T10:46:57Z")
Aria Jenneth I want to reassure you that whatever the fate of Tibius Heth might be, any revelation like the one you described would finally put an end to uncertainty, speculation, and - to some - burdensome hope. So, no, I don’t think your idea sounds insane. To me, it reflects a deeper conflict and your idea is rather a solution and a relief; - even though a strengthening of Sansha’s Nation or the Vimoksha Chorus will increase suffering and should be thwarted with determination. Sincerely, Haria Haritimado ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2020, 1:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/who-or-what-are-the-vimoksha-chorus/190835/34 "2020-01-23T13:09:01Z")
Well, it does seem that my ignorance of the Chorus was showing a little bit anyway, ma’am. I had an idea that it might have splintered recently and be led by a Nationified Tibus Heth. But, nope: old piratical subfaction led by this “Citizen Sedek.” They might very well have Heth-haan, though. Or have had him? Hm. It doesn’t seem like greeting the TD’s with a True Slaved Tibus Heth would be the best opening to diplomatic relations. Could they … could they have let him go? Or be keeping him as a “guest” instead of a straightforward enslaved captive? ---
**Author:** ![Che\_Biko](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/che_biko/32/500836_2.png) [@Che\_Biko](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Che_Biko)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2020, 3:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/who-or-what-are-the-vimoksha-chorus/190835/35 "2020-01-23T15:21:04Z")
Apologies if I bring information to the table that was already on it, but I did not have time to check for that. So, this Cornelius Sedek. Reportedly a _former_ True Citizen. I could only confirm this broadcast was his, probably from when he was still a loyal Nation subject: > For too long have you been allowed to live in fear. For too long have you thought, “If the Nation comes, we will run, and we will hide, and we will be safe.” Let it be known that there is no such thing as “safe.” There is only deliverance, or annihilation. I think it’s safe to say that he is not Tibus Heth, unless Heth clonejacked him or something. I also found this GalNet post, but I could not confirm if it was from the same Cornelius Sedek: > Learning to be alone and enjoying it, is the most empowering gift you can give yourself I also did some digging into “Vimoshka”. In ancient Intaki culture, the word has a lot to do with liberation or (final) emancipation, emptiness, shooting and gifts. There are several Vimoshkas relating to things such as: - Abiding in absorption - Disappearance of notions of resistance, rejection of notions of multiplicity, infinite space - Infinite conciousness - Nothingness - Neither identification nor non-identification - Signless - Desireless ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 11:07am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/who-or-what-are-the-vimoksha-chorus/190835/36 "2020-01-24T11:07:10Z")
> [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > Hm. It doesn’t seem like greeting the TD’s with a True Slaved Tibus Heth would be the best opening to diplomatic relations. No, they’d use a ‘rescued’ Heth who says all the right things and starts mingling with a lot of private 1-on-1 meetings with upper leadership… ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 3:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/who-or-what-are-the-vimoksha-chorus/190835/37 "2020-01-24T15:14:02Z")
Yeah, except they’d medically scan him, a lot, first thing, Arrendis. The TD leadership is awful, not stupid, and the dangers of contact with Nation (or its offshoot) are pretty obvious. They probably would be using nanite countermeasures, too. One thing that interests me a lot is the communication confirming recognition protocols between the two. It’s mutually agreed that if recognition fails, the guns go hot immediately. My guess is that it’s hard to tell a Chorus battleship from a Nation battleship by sight, and that the TD’s use undecorated Caldari hulls of the kind you can find routinely all over the State and beyond, so maybe they’re worried about a ship spoofing its ID and trying to just fit in with the crowd? Interesting that they’re SO worried about that that they’re willing to virtually guarantee some accidental losses (it seems like surely, some time, somewhere, somebody’s code is going to have a hiccup or hardware’s going to suffer a fault at a bad moment) to guard against it. ---
**Author:** ![Morgana\_Tsukiyo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/morgana_tsukiyo/32/385507_2.png) [@Morgana\_Tsukiyo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Morgana_Tsukiyo)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 3:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/who-or-what-are-the-vimoksha-chorus/190835/38 "2020-01-24T15:29:57Z")
> [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > My guess is that it’s hard to tell a Chorus battleship from a Nation battleship by sight, and that the TD’s use undecorated Caldari hulls of the kind you can find routinely all over the State and beyond, so maybe they’re worried about a ship spoofing its ID and trying to just fit in with the crowd? POSSIBLE RECRUIT: Are you the Chorus People’s Front? CHORUS MEMBER 1: ■■■■ off! POSSIBLE RECRUIT: What? CHORUS MEMBER 1: Chorus People’s Front. We’re the People’s Front of Chorus! Chorus People’s Front. Cawk. CHORUS MEMBER 2: Wankers. POSSIBLE RECRUIT: Can I… join your group? CHORUS MEMBER 1: No. Piss off. POSSIBLE RECRUIT: I didn’t want to sell this stuff. It’s only a job. I hate the Nation as much as anybody. PEOPLE’S FRONT OF CHORUS: Shhhh. Shhhh. Shhh. Shh. Shhhh. CHORUS MEMBER 1: Stumm. CHORUS MEMBER 3: Are you sure? POSSIBLE RECRUIT: Oh, dead sure. I hate the Nation already. CHORUS MEMBER 1: Listen. If you wanted to join the People’s Front of Chorus, you’d have to really hate the Nation. POSSIBLE RECRUIT: I do! CHORUS MEMBER 1: Oh, yeah? How much? POSSIBLE RECRUIT: A lot! CHORUS MEMBER 1: Right. You’re in. Listen. The only people we hate more than the Nation are the ■■■■■■■ Chorus People’s Front. CHORUS MEMBERS: Yeah… CHORUS MEMBER 3: Splitters. CHORUS MEMBERS: Splitters… CHORUS MEMBER 2: And the Chorus Popular People’s Front. CHORUS MEMBERS: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Splitters. Splitters… CHORUS MEMBER 4: And the People’s Front of Chorus. CHORUS MEMBERS: Yeah. Splitters. Splitters… CHORUS MEMBER 1: What? CHORUS MEMBER 4: The People’s Front of Chorus. Splitters. CHORUS MEMBER 1: We’re the People’s Front of Chorus! CHORUS MEMBER 4: Oh. I thought we were the Popular Front. CHORUS MEMBER 1: People’s Front! C-huh. CHORUS MEMBER 2: Whatever happened to the Popular Front, Chorus Member 1? CHORUS MEMBER 1: He’s over there. CHORUS MEMBERS: Splitter! ---
**Author:** ![Valerie\_Valate](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/valerie_valate/32/386231_2.png) [@Valerie\_Valate](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Valerie_Valate)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 4:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/who-or-what-are-the-vimoksha-chorus/190835/39 "2020-01-24T16:13:28Z")
> [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > except they’d medically scan him I would have thought more people would have known this by now, however: It _is_ possible to construct a clone that cannot be recognised as a clone except by destructive testing. And Sansha’s Nation _are_ known to have used such clones as infiltrators in some societies, where augmented individuals are commonplace. You can detect the presence of implants, sure. But unless you’re going to pull them out and do destructive testing on them, you can’t be 100% sure the implant is what it says it is. And pulling an implant from a brain without killing the brain is not an easy task. Sure, you _could_ force the suspect to be cloned, but that is a gross violation of several things that various peoples hold important, such as Minmatar spirituality, Amarr religion, Federal human rights, and so on. And you can’t even be certain that people _without_ implants are not infiltrators, due to the thing I mentioned above, about nondetectable cloning methods. The lack of implants limits the extent of Sansha’s Nation direct control of the infiltrator, but subtle psych programming methods can do a lot. So really, any person, particularly those with implants, could be a Sansha’s Nation infiltrator. How many implants do _you_ have, Aria ? ---
**Author:** ![Sebat\_Hadah](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sebat_hadah/32/248462_2.png) [@Sebat\_Hadah](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sebat_Hadah)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 5:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/who-or-what-are-the-vimoksha-chorus/190835/40 "2020-01-24T17:48:29Z")
Well they’re just like any other faction of Heretical ass holes who prey upon the innocent. We shall purge them with the FLAMES OF HOLY FIRE! [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/who-or-what-are-the-vimoksha-chorus/190835.md?page=1) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/who-or-what-are-the-vimoksha-chorus/190835.md?page=3)