# Why are eve player's so Risk averse **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Tags:** null-sec, low-sec, pvp\ **Created:** [May 18, 2019, 9:16am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-are-eve-players-so-risk-averse/160436 "2019-05-18T09:16:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2019, 1:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-are-eve-players-so-risk-averse/160436/41 "2019-05-19T13:50:18Z")
I used to dual box PvP ships doing PVE in asteroid belts in NPC 0.0 and most of the time people would not play, though over times as more people became BLOP’s able it got a bit silly. But then CCP nerfed reprocess rates and I gave up on that. Huge shame to me as I enjoyed it. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2019, 1:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-are-eve-players-so-risk-averse/160436/42 "2019-05-19T13:54:09Z")
It’s not even a matter of optimizing your income. When you do PVE you are at risk. The LONGER it takes to make an activity, the more you can lose your ship. If you have a f % chance to be found, per minute, then chance of being found after n minutes is 1-(1-f)^n . Now replace f (chance to be found) by h (chance to be found by someone who can hunt and kill you), then multiply by your fit cost, and you have the total cost for farming for f minutes fit-wise, act\_timecost(m) = fitcost\*(1- (1-h)^m). Now your activity that lasts m minutes and bring a whopping 10M for a fit that costs 10M, with h being 0.05 (once chance out of 20 to be hunted every minute) | hunted prob per minute | activity gain | fit cost | | --- | --- | --- | | 0.05 | 10 | 10 | | | | | | time | chance to be found | activity reward | | 0 | 0 | 10 | | 1 | 0.05 | 9 | | 2 | 0.0975 | 8.05 | | 3 | 0.142625 | 7.1475 | | 4 | 0.18549375 | 6.290125 | | 5 | 0.2262190625 | 5.47561875 | | 6 | 0.264908109375 | 4.7018378125 | | 7 | 0.30166270390625 | 3.96674592187499 | | 8 | 0.336579568710938 | 3.26840862578124 | | 9 | 0.369750590275391 | 2.60498819449218 | | 10 | 0.401263060761621 | 1.97473878476757 | | 11 | 0.43119990772354 | 1.37600184552919 | | 12 | 0.459639912337363 | 0.807201753252734 | | 13 | 0.486657916720495 | 0.266841665590096 | | 14 | 0.512325020884471 | -0.246500417689411 | | 15 | 0.536708769840247 | -0.73417539680494 | | 16 | 0.559873331348235 | -1.19746662696469 | | 17 | 0.581879664780823 | -1.63759329561646 | | 18 | 0.602785681541782 | -2.05571363083564 | what is important here : if you are doing a site in 10min you gain 2M per activity. If you are doing +25% DPS you are doing the activity in 8 min instead, so a gain of +1.2M per activity. In that very specific case, a gain of 25% DPS translates in a gain of +60% income. On the opposite, if you take more than 14 minutes to make your activity, then your activity average gain is negative. Here is the same table for a VNI fit that costs 100M, on a haven that brings 20M, in a system where the player loses his ship once every 5h of farm | 15 | 0.048850017895632 | 14.1379978525241 | | --- | --- | --- | | 16 | 0.05202051783598 | 13.7575378596824 | | 17 | 0.055180449443194 | 13.3783460668168 | | 18 | 0.05832984794505 | 13.000418246594 | | 19 | 0.0614687484519 | 12.6237501857721 | | 20 | 0.06459718595706 | 12.2483376851528 | | 21 | 0.067715195337203 | 11.8741765595357 | | 22 | 0.070822811352746 | 11.5012626376705 | | 23 | 0.073920068648236 | 11.1295917622116 | | 24 | 0.077007001752742 | 10.7591597896709 | | 25 | 0.080083645080233 | 10.3899625903721 | | 26 | 0.083150032929966 | 10.0219960484041 | | 27 | 0.086206199486866 | 9.65525606157613 | | 28 | 0.089252178821909 | 9.28973854137089 | | 29 | 0.092288004892503 | 8.92543941289966 | | 30 | 0.095313711542861 | 8.56235461485666 | So going from 30 minutes to 20 minutes means he gains 3.7M, that is with a gain of 50% DPS the gain is +37% income per site .(of course the isk/h increases by 50\*1.37 = 68% ). The point is that if you don’t deal enough damage in PVE you lose money. > [@Ember\_Fireheart](#): > > spend 2-3 hours taking out the site (8/10 / 10/10) what ? no. > [@Runa\_Yamaguchi](#): > > If you are PvE then you fit your ship as per MIN/MAX ideals…far more than just optimization. minmax is a very specific form of optimization that does not fit in eve. ---
**Author:** ![Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/runa_yamaguchi/32/197532_2.png) [@Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Runa_Yamaguchi)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2019, 2:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-are-eve-players-so-risk-averse/160436/43 "2019-05-19T14:00:34Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > minmax is a very specific form of optimization that does not fit in eve. As per GiantBomb > **Min** - **maxing** is the character-building strategy of maximizing a specific desirable ability, skill, or other power of a character and minimizing everything else, seen as undesirable. The result is a character who is excessively powerful in one particular way, but exceedingly weak in others. Speaking of ships only set-up for PvE to optimist ISK earning, you 100% maximize your damage to that specific enemy and minimize everything else that is not detrimental to ISK earning. For PvE, because you know exactly what you will face, you for sure try to maximize your effort. A wise person just said 😉 > The point is that if you don’t deal enough damage in PVE you lose money. If you disagree, that’s fine but you need to say more than what you are saying… ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2019, 2:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-are-eve-players-so-risk-averse/160436/44 "2019-05-19T14:21:34Z")
> [@Runa\_Yamaguchi](#): > > As per GiantBomb Both the definition of minmax don’t fit. Yours is about “creating a character”, which does not apply to eve (except remapping). Plus this use implies the loss of immersion/fun/realism/social investment for an egoist reward, which does not fit in eve either. The other one that could apply is [“optimizing a decision for a situation”](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimax) which actually does not apply because your first decision will not trigger decisions from your opponent. > [@Runa\_Yamaguchi](#): > > If you disagree Disagree with what ? I show you that an activity that is not optimized at all has a negative reward, and as such all eve activities (in LS/NS) must be optimized to become at least rewarding. I tell you that if you want to get rewards in Eve, then you need to optimize your fit a minimum. It’s not linked to the people who _want_ to optimize, it’s linked to the fact your loss increases over time. So even the people who just want to chill in LS/NS NEED to optimize their fit if they want to gain something from their activity. ---
**Author:** ![Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/runa_yamaguchi/32/197532_2.png) [@Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Runa_Yamaguchi)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2019, 2:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-are-eve-players-so-risk-averse/160436/45 "2019-05-19T14:37:33Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > Yours is about “creating a character” You can MIN/Max more than just a character…like for example, your ship…which is what we are talking about. Sure in a RPG style game it’s about the character. In BloodBowl it’s about the whole team. In A MOAM is about a Meta tactic…Min/Max is not ONLY about character building. In all cases you are ignoring the averages and trying to maximize the peaks. In EVE you really don’t have character stats per se that you can Min/Max but you sure as heck can do that for your ship. You generally don’t overly do this for PvP unless you know the enemy in advance but for a PvE ship, you totally do this. …and that is why people don’t fight and rather run because the two builds do not produce situations that result in a more equal fight. PvP ships do more so but not PvE. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2019, 2:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-are-eve-players-so-risk-averse/160436/46 "2019-05-19T14:43:38Z")
> [@Runa\_Yamaguchi](#): > > You can MIN/Max more than just a character… not according to [the site you talk about](https://www.giantbomb.com/min-maxing/3015-128/) > Min-maxing is the character-building strategy of maximizing a specific desirable ability, skill, or other power of a character and minimizing everything else, seen as undesirable. The result is a character who is excessively powerful in one particular way, but exceedingly weak in others. in the general case, it’s called “optimization”. minmax according to your site is a specific case of optimization for characters in RPG. ---
**Author:** ![Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/runa_yamaguchi/32/197532_2.png) [@Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Runa_Yamaguchi)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2019, 2:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-are-eve-players-so-risk-averse/160436/47 "2019-05-19T14:54:11Z")
Yes, that article is talking specifically about RPGs but the term is not ONLY used in RPGs… If you google pretty much any game where what you control has a large range of possible set-ups and add “min/max” to that query, you will get hits. Why? Becasue it’s the basic premise of a lot of games… Done playing semantics… ---
**Author:** ![Nysta\_Miityew](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nysta_miityew/32/132401_2.png) [@Nysta\_Miityew](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nysta_Miityew)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2019, 2:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-are-eve-players-so-risk-averse/160436/48 "2019-05-19T14:56:19Z")
> [@Runa\_Yamaguchi](#): > > Done playing semantics… Yes please! Let’s stay on topic! ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2019, 3:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-are-eve-players-so-risk-averse/160436/49 "2019-05-19T15:00:46Z")
> [@Runa\_Yamaguchi](#): > > Why? Because people who don’t understand a term misuse it. I’m not playing semantic, I just teach you that minmax is a specific case of optimization that does not fit in eve. You have a term that perfectly fits the situation : optimization. And you have another term, that is a restriction of this previous term that not only applies only to a reduced cases, but also conveys more meaning. It’s like you said the production of wheat/corn/bean has allowed humanity to settle down. It’s the production of vegetables that did, not specially one of them(which did not exist at this time as it does now). ---
**Author:** ![Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/runa_yamaguchi/32/197532_2.png) [@Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Runa_Yamaguchi)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2019, 3:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-are-eve-players-so-risk-averse/160436/50 "2019-05-19T15:09:13Z")
What is the optimal way to set-up a PvE ship? ---
**Author:** ![Nicolai\_Serkanner](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nicolai_serkanner/32/358049_2.png) [@Nicolai\_Serkanner](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nicolai_Serkanner)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2019, 3:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-are-eve-players-so-risk-averse/160436/51 "2019-05-19T15:10:32Z")
> [@Runa\_Yamaguchi](#): > > Done playing semantics… Be prepared for more. It’s all Geten is capable of. ---
**Author:** ![Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/runa_yamaguchi/32/197532_2.png) [@Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Runa_Yamaguchi)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2019, 3:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-are-eve-players-so-risk-averse/160436/52 "2019-05-19T15:11:11Z")
Trust me, I’m filled with regret all ready…I promise to leave in about 5 minutes though… ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2019, 3:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-are-eve-players-so-risk-averse/160436/53 "2019-05-19T15:18:50Z")
There are several, it depends on the user. The action of finding an optimal way to fit your ship is called “optimization”. People always optimize when they are aware of a choice(and since they are human, they often fail even with an objective optimization function). However “minmax” has a meaning of something the player chose to do when he was not expected to do it, it implies a form of “tunnel vision”. You can’t expect people to put random modules on their fit. You can’t say the game is dying because people don’t want to lose a randomly fit ship to rats when they are farming. The criterions with which people decide what fit is optimal depend entirely on the player. For some players it will be the price, for other the DPS, for other the capacity to kill an incoming player, the capacity to find another player, evasion in gatecamp, capacity to rebuild it, capacity to move it in JF, capacity to refit in space to travel fit, need for implants, etc. Just deciding to put a magstab on a thorax instead of nothing is a part of the optimization process (some player optimize by reducing the number of slots that are empty). ---
**Author:** ![Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/runa_yamaguchi/32/197532_2.png) [@Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Runa_Yamaguchi)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2019, 3:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-are-eve-players-so-risk-averse/160436/54 "2019-05-19T15:34:26Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > There are several, it depends on the user. Actually you are right in saying that. 1. Smart players fit their PvE ships with load-out that will maximize a specific damage type and also provide the best protection against the listed damage type that is expected. They do this to maximize their ISK/hr returns. 2. Stupid/ignorant players players don’t do this. There, you are right, there are two possible options. Everything else you said is 100% horse manure. Have a nice night. 💏 ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2019, 4:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-are-eve-players-so-risk-averse/160436/55 "2019-05-19T16:22:19Z")
> [@Runa\_Yamaguchi](#): > > Smart players fit their PvE ships with load-out that will maximize a specific damage type and also provide the best protection against the listed damage type that is expected. They do this to maximize their ISK/hr returns. If this was the case every smart player would use w-634 DDA on his VNI. Your opinion is very funny, but it just does not match the reality. Reported for insults though. ---
**Author:** ![Ember\_Fireheart](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ember_fireheart/32/278556_2.png) [@Ember\_Fireheart](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ember_Fireheart)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2019, 4:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-are-eve-players-so-risk-averse/160436/56 "2019-05-19T16:23:00Z")
No point explaining, fools only tunnel vision they cannot see the bigger picture. ---
**Author:** ![Salt\_Foambreaker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salt_foambreaker/32/280119_2.png) [@Salt\_Foambreaker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salt_Foambreaker)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2019, 4:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-are-eve-players-so-risk-averse/160436/57 "2019-05-19T16:43:21Z")
Simple, modern children are wimps. It is not just EVE players, most gamers are wimps. Everybody is a winner! ---
**Author:** ![Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/runa_yamaguchi/32/197532_2.png) [@Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Runa_Yamaguchi)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2019, 12:13am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-are-eve-players-so-risk-averse/160436/58 "2019-05-20T00:13:06Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > Reported for insults though. What insult!!! Wow…what is wrong with you? ---
**Author:** ![Oliver\_Delorean](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/oliver_delorean/32/375028_2.png) [@Oliver\_Delorean](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Oliver_Delorean)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2019, 12:23am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-are-eve-players-so-risk-averse/160436/59 "2019-05-20T00:23:34Z")
> [@Ember\_Fireheart](#): > > Why is it so hard to find a fight as a solo pvper Its actually quite easy answer… PVE people - They warp out cuz they have no interest of fighting you, they just want to PVE. PVP people - Most of them have very important thing in mind… Killboard! They can not have red line on billboard! They will gank you, fleet rape u, bait u in, do what ever they can… just to get that green line! There is 3 people in eve who do PVP just for the sake of fun not killboard and one of them has quit already… the other two you might encounter once a week when they have nothing else to do, to log in EvE and play 5 hours to “maybe” get a one good fight. ---
**Author:** ![Foggy\_Bernstein](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/foggy_bernstein/32/407887_2.png) [@Foggy\_Bernstein](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Foggy_Bernstein)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2019, 1:40am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-are-eve-players-so-risk-averse/160436/60 "2019-05-20T01:40:15Z")
Putting aside the partisan attacks, apologists, pvsplainers, et al, there is one main reason that players are majorly risk averse. RMT! Not the bad kind. The official kind. The PLEX for cash system. Knocking out all the malarkey and double speak, what it boils down to people are paying cash for their ships and they don’t want to lose them. Back before PLEX you mined, missioned, built up an industry, or whatever and that functionally served to fund your PVP habit. Now you pay cash for it. And if it affects your wallet to lose those precious pixels, you are a lot less likely to risk them for fun fights. So…■■■■ you, PLEX! [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-are-eve-players-so-risk-averse/160436.md?page=2) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-are-eve-players-so-risk-averse/160436.md?page=4)