# Why does trade have to cough up all the isk sinks? **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [October 19, 2019, 10:55am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-does-trade-have-to-cough-up-all-the-isk-sinks/196394 "2019-10-19T10:55:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Marek\_Kanenald](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/marek_kanenald/32/257788_2.png) [@Marek\_Kanenald](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Marek_Kanenald)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 10:55am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-does-trade-have-to-cough-up-all-the-isk-sinks/196394/1 "2019-10-19T10:55:32Z")
What are by far the largest isk sink in the game currently? Brokers fee’s and sales tax. Compare September with July: ![](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/6/d/6d57160b3b47e9f1e04724e6c1debfa753c6fec8.png) ![](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/c/d/cd112634d42405603260b71042fbb1df3fe452cf.png) Why is the tax so overwhelmingly put on trade? Why did other isk sinks and faucets see no change at all? Why is something that produces no value, namely the mere exchange of already existing goods punished so hard? Why weren’t the fees on manufacturing, insurance or bounty payouts changed instead? The maximum tax is a whopping 10(!) percent. If you buy and resale an item ONCE at this rate it has already lost 20% of its value. It is cheaper to have the citadel were your goods are stored to be blown up then to make a single resale. Even with max standing it is still over 5. Of course everyone sells and buys, but the traders are hit disproportionately hard. Yeah yeah, I know what you are going to say. Adapt, blablabla. The reality is citadels have ■■■■ volume for selling and its just monopolizing more power to the big guys. edit: You know what, it isn’t even the transaction fee that is so ridiculous it’s the insane npc broker fees. A market order is not a transfer of goods, it is only a form of communication to the other party that you want to buy or sell something. It shouldn’t take up to 5%(!) to just say you want to buy it. All this does is make managing larger market orders a pain because if you first say you want to buy and the market changes you lose the extreme broker fees. It forces people to micro manage the same buy order into smaller chunks, which is tedious and ads nothing. Broker fee should only be to prevent spamming the market. 0.5% or so is more than enough. The moment of actually payment should be the transaction itself and the transaction tax can be raised accordingly. Give citadels the option of setting their own transaction tax instead of broker fee and have the same fixed broker fee for the citadels as well. ---
**Author:** ![Orochimaru\_Angel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/orochimaru_angel/32/368310_2.png) [@Orochimaru\_Angel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Orochimaru_Angel)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 11:13am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-does-trade-have-to-cough-up-all-the-isk-sinks/196394/2 "2019-10-19T11:13:39Z")
agreed ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 11:23am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-does-trade-have-to-cough-up-all-the-isk-sinks/196394/3 "2019-10-19T11:23:12Z")
> [@Marek\_Kanenald](#): > > Why is the tax so overwhelmingly put on traders? It would be less, but lots of trading happens… ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 11:36am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-does-trade-have-to-cough-up-all-the-isk-sinks/196394/4 "2019-10-19T11:36:05Z")
Keep in mind that everyone who sells anything on the market pays those fees as well. Miners, mission farmers, LP traders, rat loot, industrialists, PI farmers - it all goes on the market at some point. It’s the obvious point to put in an ISK sink. EVE does need a bit more ISK sinking and it should be spread as evenly as possible across game activities. If you can suggest any other type of ISK sink that applies roughly equally to everyone in the game, then do so. ---
**Author:** ![Tipa\_Riot](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tipa_riot/32/443513_2.png) [@Tipa\_Riot](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tipa_Riot)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 11:49am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-does-trade-have-to-cough-up-all-the-isk-sinks/196394/5 "2019-10-19T11:49:40Z")
Traders pay less than you think, the higher taxes are compensated by higher spreads. Traders are only interested in the price difference, which adjusts in an ideal market. ---
**Author:** ![Marek\_Kanenald](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/marek_kanenald/32/257788_2.png) [@Marek\_Kanenald](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Marek_Kanenald)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 12:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-does-trade-have-to-cough-up-all-the-isk-sinks/196394/6 "2019-10-19T12:09:41Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > If you can suggest any other type of ISK sink that applies roughly equally to everyone in the game, then do so Manufacturing, removing (or just nerfing) asset safety, reducing faucets such as insurance. ---
**Author:** ![Marek\_Kanenald](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/marek_kanenald/32/257788_2.png) [@Marek\_Kanenald](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Marek_Kanenald)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 12:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-does-trade-have-to-cough-up-all-the-isk-sinks/196394/7 "2019-10-19T12:17:26Z")
It’s not the obvious point to tax because it is not the point where value is added or destroyed. Value is added during manufacturing. Stuff like rat loot also adds value, but the entire activity of ratting is already supposed to be a faucet. ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 12:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-does-trade-have-to-cough-up-all-the-isk-sinks/196394/8 "2019-10-19T12:21:00Z")
Sounds a great place to tax people who aren’t contributing to creation or destruction. ---
**Author:** ![Ms\_Steak](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ms_steak/32/168834_2.png) [@Ms\_Steak](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ms_Steak)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 12:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-does-trade-have-to-cough-up-all-the-isk-sinks/196394/9 "2019-10-19T12:55:00Z")
> [@Marek\_Kanenald](#): > > Manufacturing Increased taxes and broker fees on the market already work as increased cost for manufacturers if you buy your materials. > [@Marek\_Kanenald](#): > > emoving (or just nerfing) asset safety, Asset safety IS an isk sink > [@Marek\_Kanenald](#): > > reducing faucets such as insurance. has already been done. Bigger ships have lower relative payouts when insured and destroyed. ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 12:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-does-trade-have-to-cough-up-all-the-isk-sinks/196394/10 "2019-10-19T12:56:17Z")
> [@Marek\_Kanenald](#): > > Manufacturing, removing (or just nerfing) asset safety, reducing faucets such as insurance. Nah. Everybody buys and sells. Not everybody uses asset safety, or insurance. You missed this point: > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > If you can suggest any other type of ISK sink that applies roughly equally to everyone in the game probably because you’re a trader who doesn’t want to pay fees, and just wants somebody else to pay them for you. Market fees only look high because something like 700 _trillion_ gets traded in a month. This is in the range of 100 times the value of any other economic activity (mining, ratting, production etc.). In fact by that measure, since 100 times the value gets traded, but markets only sink about 15x as much fees as other activities, than _market fees should still increase 300% or more_. Market traders are getting the easy ride to wealth in the game, no interaction with the rest of the game, for comparatively speaking the _least risk_ and _lowest operating expense_. Stop whining, start paying up. **@CCP, more market fees please!** ---
**Author:** ![safira\_jomita](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/safira_jomita/32/405219_2.png) [@safira\_jomita](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/safira_jomita)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 12:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-does-trade-have-to-cough-up-all-the-isk-sinks/196394/11 "2019-10-19T12:57:35Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > Miners, mission farmers, LP traders, rat loot, industrialists, PI farmers Those y mentioned usually just instasell the loot/ goodies , Wich gives them about 2,2- 2,3% depending on skills . Traders are tied to the both broker fee and sell taxes Wich can be around 6% not counting the buy order tax.now with great skills. But I think if raise the industrial tax industry will be almost undoable , cause production costs ,hauling, etc and price are very tight. ---
**Author:** ![Marek\_Kanenald](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/marek_kanenald/32/257788_2.png) [@Marek\_Kanenald](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Marek_Kanenald)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 1:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-does-trade-have-to-cough-up-all-the-isk-sinks/196394/12 "2019-10-19T13:10:50Z")
> [@Ms\_Steak](#): > > Increased taxes and broker fees on the market already work as increased cost for manufacturers if you buy your materials. Yes AND on every other transfer of goods which have nothing to do with manufacturing > [@Ms\_Steak](#): > > Asset safety IS an isk sink Yes, so increase it? > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > Market traders are getting the easy ride to wealth in the game, no interaction with the rest of the game, for comparatively speaking the _least risk_ and _lowest operating expense_ . Trading that is worthwhile and not just 0.01 isking everyone else requires an actual brain, which is why everyone rats instead. It requires a large amount of capital to be truly effective and the risk of financially ■■■■■■■ up is a lot more real than the “risk” while mining under your super capital umbrella. ---
**Author:** ![Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zhalyd_lyehin/32/358574_2.png) [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zhalyd_Lyehin)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 2:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-does-trade-have-to-cough-up-all-the-isk-sinks/196394/14 "2019-10-19T14:16:34Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > @CCP, more market fees please! Yes, please. End the low broker fees on structures. Reinstate broker fees on structure markets. Keep them lower than NPC station taxes to allow for some profiting but make it impossible to have 2-3% difference on structures. ---
**Author:** ![Agondray](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/agondray/32/414989_2.png) [@Agondray](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Agondray)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 2:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-does-trade-have-to-cough-up-all-the-isk-sinks/196394/15 "2019-10-19T14:22:29Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > It’s the obvious point to put in an ISK sink. EVE does need a bit more ISK sinking what eve needs is a asset wipe, now amount of isk sink is going to keep up with the grinding that happens on a daily basis. even for alot of items we have so much stock we could probably go for years with out any industry on some ships and modules because theres so much sitting in hangers of people that run indy alts galore. if you tax something im just going to grind more isk to replace the fees and have more isk than i need to buy anything and than ill just keep grinding even more isk for future use, there buy putting an even bigger stockpile of isk. i know a asset wipe is extreme but if you say we are going to wipe isk, everyone will just hoard and than they just have to wait for people to get the isk to start buying again. A asset wipe would require rebuilding all of society again from the ground up but you still have all your SP. The issue isnt how much you tax, its how much and how fast you can grind ISK, compared to other games theres not much of economy excet on player made goods and the materials to make those goods which has to be farmed which is a paltry sum compared to our Eve Economy which has a much smaller base of NPC provided goods where the majority of your ISK would go if eve was like other games. At the same time our economy is what makes us unique compared to others as its something around 90%+ player made and provided goods but the ISK needed for those goods just come from thin air with no finite amount and than stays in the system and taxes only work if you go to buy something which is than dependent on how much you buy, spend more isk and more isk vanishes to taxes. Another idea like another game i play is past a certain amount of moneyi have to pay accountant fees, however i bypass the account fees by hoarding goods in my warehouse because the accountant fees can quickly add up to being being more fees than profit you can make a day. Currently if i liquidated my wares I’d have like 300k accountant fees and i only make around 100k profit a day. ---
**Author:** ![Xuixien](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xuixien/32/416896_2.png) [@Xuixien](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xuixien)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 3:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-does-trade-have-to-cough-up-all-the-isk-sinks/196394/16 "2019-10-19T15:37:31Z")
> [@Marek\_Kanenald](#): > > removing (or just nerfing) asset safety How does removing an ISK sink increase ISK sinks? Dude… ---
**Author:** ![Haulie\_Berry](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/haulie_berry/32/388021_2.png) [@Haulie\_Berry](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Haulie_Berry)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 8:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-does-trade-have-to-cough-up-all-the-isk-sinks/196394/18 "2019-10-19T20:25:53Z")
They don’t. Traders build taxes into their pricing. It matters to traders the least. ---
**Author:** ![Marek\_Kanenald](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/marek_kanenald/32/257788_2.png) [@Marek\_Kanenald](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Marek_Kanenald)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2019, 7:36am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-does-trade-have-to-cough-up-all-the-isk-sinks/196394/19 "2019-10-20T07:36:59Z")
> [@Xuixien](#): > > How does removing an ISK sink increase ISK sinks? Dude… Manufacturing goods requires ISK you know. Destruction of those goods requires more ISK spending to replace them. ---
**Author:** ![Scoots\_Choco](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scoots_choco/32/262262_2.png) [@Scoots\_Choco](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scoots_Choco)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2019, 7:44am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-does-trade-have-to-cough-up-all-the-isk-sinks/196394/20 "2019-10-20T07:44:12Z")
> [@Marek\_Kanenald](#): > > Destruction of those goods requires more ISK spending to **replace** them. That’s not how Asset Safety works though. You pay ISK to an NPC entity in order to pull items back out of Asset Safety. That’s an ISK Sink. No player ever gets that money, it just disappears off into an NPC’s wallet. Spending ISK to replace something is NOT an ISK sink. That ISK goes into the pockets of another player who was selling those goods. ---
**Author:** ![Punctator](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/punctator/32/357072_2.png) [@Punctator](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Punctator)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2019, 7:44am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-does-trade-have-to-cough-up-all-the-isk-sinks/196394/21 "2019-10-20T07:44:49Z")
i cant stand one think. people buy plexys for real money to sell it for isk and they are taxed . Reseles, traders should be taxed sure, but why people who invest real money into game are taxed not only by ccp but other players (station owners) too. It is ■■■■ and scam. ---
**Author:** ![Do\_Little](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/do_little/32/411571_2.png) [@Do\_Little](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Do_Little)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2019, 8:12am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-does-trade-have-to-cough-up-all-the-isk-sinks/196394/22 "2019-10-20T08:12:04Z")
Brokerage and taxes are part of your cost. You add your profit margin on top of that to determine your selling price. If the product isn’t profitable - sell something else. Unless people enjoy selling below cost, the price will rise to the point where most participants in the market are comfortable with the margins. I basically reset my floor prices when the taxes changed and have seen no reduction in sales or profits. [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-does-trade-have-to-cough-up-all-the-isk-sinks/196394.md?page=2)